AK - Nixon ISSUE CLOSED ON 12.5.2002

[AK_Rap1d]

heh, looks like that one didn't work either, ?lmao
8)8)





and could everyone please read grifter's post about 4 posts back (skip the three useless ones and u'll find it:D). ?I strongly agree with grift, and it is true: in the past history of the BL, clans are held responsible for the actions of their members. ?Also, bondo once again like grift said, an individual can hide. ?Typhy, like i said in another post somewhere, can just come back on, different IP, different name, different account#. ?But the clan cannot.

Gorf, Listen you Forum Lying piece of scum, if you would have done proper investigation(like the Moderators do) you would know that Bondo stated those actions taken in the past were not necessarily rightfully executed. ?But since you are so obsessed on seeing |?K| booted off the ladder, like you admitted in your "aggressive ways" by lying and spaming nonsense, you won't shut the fuck up! ?Now I look at moderators and ask to please Delete ALL of his threads and let us deal with this. ?Not some dork named Gorf::)who we have already seen lie and exaggerate in the past...

[TeeEfSix Goku]

TEXTOk guys,I just wanted to ask all the moderators,and even you gorf the piece of fucking trash left on the sidewalk after EVERYONE exept your brother is against your actions.Anyway.....whats the point of all you people hating all us |?K|'s for no reason.......I joined ak becuase i was promised a good caring clan and CB's.Ive been waiting for a clan like this since PsYcO(thx for that period of time sin
) Anyway,ive never had a more caring clan,and i want people to like me for me and not hate me or judge me for bieng in AK.And as the matter with typhy,i think a suspension would be perfect....but to kick our CLAN....now thats a load of bullshit.
Thank you for reading.
                 

[Bondo]

Where do I begin, ok first off, I don't think the fact that Typhy can get around the individual punishment. ?We shouldn't make the punishment worse just because we can't enforce the punishment we give. ?We have to assume that our punishment will be followed.  Also, we gave a permanant ban to Romulus from the BL and that has been pretty effective, so there is no reason to think it wouldn't be again, especially when it is a non-permanant one where Typhy would want to behave so that he could come back.

About us punishing AK, we aren't planning to punish AK for your actions, we are going to punish AK if they show that they accept your actions Typhy. ?Seeing as Cow stepped in to set you right there is no way AK should be held responsible for the incident itself as they did their best to prevent it, but they need to show good faith by applying their own punishment to you.

Typhy, you don't need to try to defend yourself, we are past that stage. ?I don't care if it was a slip up, most people don't accidentally make up incredibly intricate lies such as having been in an imaginary meeting where an imaginary rule was made. ?I don't care whether AK stood to gain or not, it is the lie that is being punished, not the result. ?Look at the big red rule, what is happening here falls under that. ?The only thing left to decide is what your punishment is, and what if any will AK's punishment be.

[Typhy]

Ever head of "Public Humiliation Punishment"? Well thats more of the kind of thing that this warrents, Sence it didn't effect or have anything to do with a battle, a suspention of battle privlages would not be the correct punishment.

[Typhy]

The punishment should reflect on what the crime was, If it is a crime like cheating in a battle, then you should get your battle privlages taken away, If it was making a fool out of yourself, perhaps your punishment should be making more of a fool out of yourself

[Bondo]

I swear Typhy, can't you just make two paragraphs rather than two posts.  Also you don't really need to post anymore, we've agreed that you are guilty of intentional lying.  The only question now is your punishment and that is something for me, Ult and Sin to work out.

[Typhy]

Sorry, however I think that you would respond too if people were deciding the fate of your 9 months of work!

[Brain]

how  does this sound for punishment(provided ak doesnt do what you want them to)
ak suspended form the battle league for 1 month
typhy is suspended from the battleleague for an aditional 3 months. of course, if either try to get around the suspention, the length is doubled, or extended for life

does that sound fair, then you are punishing both the clan and the offender for their actions

[Bondo]

While I like your attitude of giving them a punishment with an end on it and only kicking them if they violate the punishment, I think even what you laid out will be light in that situation.

[Grifter]

Compare that to a sports incodent: Let?s say that Steve Young told a lie regarding a game that had absulutely no effect on the outcome of the game or any part of the game, Is it fair for him to be: Cut by his team, and suspended from playing football for 3 months? Over one lie that didn?t effect anything? The answer should be obvious. Sence the answer is obvious that ?No, that wouldn?t be a fair punishment?, then the answer to me getting in trouble should be the same.

? ? ?If you think that I should get a 3 month suspention and be booted from my clan for this, then you have serious problems.

Since you ask, I'll compare it to two actual incidents...

1) Pete Rose.... his betting on sporst violated rules and keep him out of the hall of fame.... because he broke a rule.  Had nothing to do with his playing (it was after that)... had nothing to do with his coaching (it was never about that).  He broke a rule and is banned from the game and the hall of fame.
2) Bobby Knight... his grabbing of a student by the elbow in itself is a joke... but it was a violation of the zero tolerance probation.... and he was given the boot.

So, the issue is that you told a big fat lie in a CB, while under a 'zero tolerance' probation.  That means it doesn't have to effect anything.  Why you did it doesn't mean much either (who knows or cares what maps you are good at).  It's an easy concept.  Again, this has nothing to do with the punishment, only why there needs to be one.

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[AK Buckshot]

Hey guys. I have been away for a couple days, so i can't pretend that I am completely in the loop with this whole situation. But help me understand something; Typhy made a blatantly false claim during a CB, about OT in the training maze. No one acted on this statement, and OT was played on a map other than the maze? So essentially, it's like me being arrested for claiming to have committed robbery, even though I never set foot on the scene of the crime?! Can you punish someone for talking out of their ass? Not at all, that IS the stupid foundation for the way all of the RS clans operate. Please shed some light on the whole subject of punishing someone for false claims, and nothing more...
I am NOT trying to argue for or against typhy, please understand how ridiculous this all sounds to someone who just found out about it. maybe i am missing something, and if Typhy is suspended, so be it. But since we are losing one of our very best players, I do need to better understand why. Thats all.
Peace. Let's play the GAME and remember what it is.

[+-KoS-+ Gorf]

Yes.  You are missing something.

Typhy tired to cheat.  That is just as bad as cheating in itself.

Call it whatever you want.  But when someone lies to trick the other team into doing something they don't have to do, that is cheating.

Buckshot, read the other threads and you will find answers.

[Typhy]

Gorf you idiot:

1.) This doesn't concern you at all.

2.) I made a 3 page post showing how it wasn't cheating. ?Read up you iliterate fool

Thanks for the examples Grifter, I can work off of those, First to Bobby Knight, All that he had to do was leave Indiana, now he is happy again with Texas. He didn't get suspended from the NCAA Tornament or anything, just fired from Indiana, also, tell me which is worst,

1.) Grabbing kids multiple times
or
2.) Telling 1 lie that didn't effect anything.

Now, it should be obvious which one is worst, but then why am I punished harder than Bobby Knight??

Now, on to Pete Rose. ?As soon as he admits to what he did, ( Betting on games ), then he is into the hall of fame right away, I have already admitted to what I did, so, again, which is worst? Betting on sports which clearly violates a writen rule, or lying on one thing that doesn't effect anything??

-Typhy

[AK_Rap1d]

After Reviewing the incident, and taking votes from our clan and *DAMN, we have choose to Boot Typhy until further notice. ?We will keep him out of our clan until *DAMN feels the punishment was sufficient. ?I believe it is 3 months, but I ask you guyz if you could please consider it just 2 months (3 is a bit harsh). ?Anyway, typhy is now booted from |?K| and hopefully he will come back a stronger man after he does his time. ?Also, by Typhy being suspended/booted, does that mean you guyz will not allow him to be in another clan, meaning suspended from BL? ?That's what I had understood, but I'm double checking. ?Thanks Moderators and sorry Typhy. ?When we have a vote, and all vote against you, nothing I can do. ?This is for the better of our clan, and we will become stronger from this experience. ?|?K|*R?p!d?* <?lan Leader>

And since I been reading everything on this matter, I am glad Things were straightened out by cow and had a fair outcome of this CB.  Thank God this didn't affect the outcome as stated by Bondo before, and that the CB will be counted.  

[Typhy]

I think that this is very sad for the battle league, This is not the right thing to do. Again, Just review my older post showing everything, Over one lie, I get the boot from my clan, and the boot from the battle league.

[Grifter]

Thanks for the examples Grifter, I can work off of those, First to Bobby Knight, All that he had to do was leave Indiana, now he is happy again with Texas. He didn't get suspended from the NCAA Tornament or anything, just fired from Indiana, also, tell me which is worst,

1.) Grabbing kids multiple times
or
2.) Telling 1 lie that didn't effect anything.

Now, it should be obvious which one is worst, but then why am I punished harder than Bobby Knight??

Now, on to Pete Rose. ?As soon as he admits to what he did, ( Betting on games ), then he is into the hall of fame right away, I have already admitted to what I did, so, again, which is worst? Betting on sports which clearly violates a writen rule, or lying on one thing that doesn't effect anything??

I see where you are going Typhy and here's why I think you are wrong.

Bobby Knight was on a zero tolerance probation, like AK.... and zero tolerance has a very narrow meaning... that being the zero part.  So, he got fired for violating the zero tolerance probation with his last scolding of a kid that had disrespected him... nothing to get fired over in itself... except for that damn zero tolerance policy (and I'm a huge Knight fan).  BTW no NCAA sanctions because the incident that got him fired happened on campus with some loser, not anything to do with B-Ball.  What you did was in a game.

Pete Rose's betting was no worse then your lie... and it was years after he played ball... so again, no harm at all... but still, he broke the rules and has to pay.

CRIME
Typhy, it's been decided that you did attempt to cheat.  Attempted Murder isn't murder.. but it's still a crime.  (that was for BuckShot and his bad analogy... to be more accurate in your analogy Buck... Typhy walked into a liquor store with a broken gun and asked for all the money... the clerk saw that the gun was broken and laughed and said no.  Typhy left the store without a dime and nobody got hurt.  Typhy still is guilty of attempted armed robbery.... doesn't matter if you actually succeed except in the punishments).

PUNISHMENT
Which brings me to... If Typhy had cheated... that's grounds for kicking AK out of the BL (as has been done in the past).  CIA was kicked for attempting to cheat (they cheated and still lost, and their cheat backfired on them because it didn't work).  So, attempting to cheat actually got the clan kicked and Rom banned (the rest of the clan could come back as a new clan or join others and did... FBI was born).  

Now, there are two other factors in the mix here... another AK member stoped the cheating on the spot (big plus for Cow and AK) and AK was already on "zero tolerance".  My problem with Bondo's early reaction to this was it takes Cow's actions into account, but not the zero tolerance... like that was forgotten.  To me, these two factors are pretty much a wash... but that's for the Admins that put them on zero tolerance to decide upon.  Those that don't understand that should really look up what zero tolerance means.

Typhy... a word of advise, since you are acting more logical then not... and this is real advise.  Argue one point at a time and keep them seperate.  Pleading innocence and objecting to the harshness of the punishment in the same posts makes it lose some of it's gravatas.

My issue here was about individual punishment vs clan punishment... which I'm still waiting to hear from Bondo on.  I just figured I'd reason with you on this since you asked Typhy.  
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[Typhy]

While Pete Rose's betting was after he retired, it was also while he was a manager, He would go to the other players etc and bet on games.  While CIA tried to cheat, The fact with this whole thing is that I didn't try to cheat, I suck at Training Maze, there is no way that I would try and cheat them into doing that.

-Typhy

[Typhy]

Heh, It says that my post is too long, Please just read down for I have to use 2 post for this.

Okay, This is proably my last post regarding this topic.

Okay, from what I see you have decided that I attempted to cheat, in this, I will start by saying that if I was going to try and cheat to get to a map that I am good at, I would not try and get them to play Training Maze, I would try and have them play City Street Large or Siberian Base I, Not Training Maze. If you convince me that in doing that I was trying to cheat, Then I will accept the punishment, however there is no way that I will accept this if all that you have is a testimonial that says that I said something about a rules meeting. If I said that, then that's a lie, not an attempt to cheat, Also, if it was an attempt to cheat do you think that I would back down so fast when everyone started telling me that I was wrong?

I have been in 3 overtime battles for the league, 1 against KotA, one against *NADS and this one against |CF|, In those battles, against KotA, we did Training Maze because that's what Coffin Dancer told us, That overtime games were played at training maze, Against *NADS, I think that we did City Street Large, I don?t know why I say to do Training Maze there, Personally I think that if you?re looking at attempts to cheat it would more of a cheating attempt against *NADS in not saying that we?re suppose to play overtime games on training Maze considering that's what I thought was correct, I guess that I just forgot in that battle. This should tell you that I was not attempting to cheat, Now, comes to the lying part of that, if I did say that, I am most sorry, I don?t know what I was thinking, Overall considering that it didn?t effect the battle at all, I could say that I was just exercising my freedom of speech. I think that if we did play it at Training Maze then it would be fair to say that I cheated, or just that the battle wouldn?t count. However, sense it didn?t effect the battle at all, then the only charges that I can face for this are: Lying, and Attempting to cheat.  Now I have already showed you that I wouldn?t cheat to get to the map Training Maze, ( Theoretically speaking, really I wouldn?t cheat to get to any map ). There are so many cases saying that I didn?t try to cheat, and there isn?t really one saying that I did other than that's what some people just assume, I could make a case saying that there is no complete evidence ( Screen shots etc. ) that can show that I did this at all, Just people saying that which isn?t enough evidence to prosecute. Because I have heard from Cow and the others that I did say that and I trust them, then I will not lie and say that I didn?t say that. Basically it comes down to the fact that out of the greatly limited evidence that you have you can?t make any case against me. Considering that you can?t make any case that I attempted to cheat, for you have no facts at all. Just things that people assumed. I have facts, like the fact that I use a Sub Machine gun which makes me bad at small places like Training Maze, also the fact that I just plain suck at training maze. The second one of those is just overall an opinion I guess, however the first one is a fact, there's one fact right there, that's more than anyone else has showing that I attempted to cheat.

Next comes the question what is a fair sentence, Even if you do totaly ignore everything that I say and go ahead with what you think and not what I ( The only person who knows what I really meant ) knows, then the only things that you can prosecute me for are: Attempted cheating, and lying, considering that the attempted cheating charge covers the lying charge, the lying is dismissed, that leaves only with attempted cheating, now, the fact is that most likely one of these happened, Either attempted cheating or lying, for attempted cheating, think this way, if I am convicted of that, do you think that being booted from my clan and having 9 months of hard work be gone is enough punishment? What this really comes down to is: Is it suitable punishment for me to booted from my clan, lose 9 months of hard work, Lose a good portion of my respect, and lose my rights to battle for 3 months? Really it will end up being a lot more than 3 months considering that I have no clan to come back to, I will have to start from scratch and try and recruite a new team, this isn?t easy, it takes a lot time to get a team and make them the best, is this really a fair punishment for any 10 words to text? No matter what they say? I can think of many 10 words of text that are far worst than this. I have sevral lives, my Gameranger - |?K| - Rogue Spear - Battle league - Ambrosia boards life, my Sports life ( My sports life is the biggest and best one ), and my family life. Is it really fair to lose one of my lives over 10 words of text no matter what they say? I really don?t think so. Honestly, Here is what will happen if I get the 3 month suspention:

[Grifter]

And since I been reading everything on this matter, I am glad Things were straightened out by cow and had a fair outcome of this CB. ?Thank God this didn't affect the outcome as stated by Bondo before, and that the CB will be counted. ?

Yes, thank Cow for being honest and upfront about the whole thing. ?Also thank CF for they never contested the CB at all... just brought up the point about Typhy. ?NutterButter said the CB should count. ?So, the CB was never in jepordy, since almost everyone actually involved acted well.

[Typhy]

1.) I will lose my clan.

2.) I will lose much of my respect.

3.) I will lose my battle privlages for 3 months.

4.) The 3 months will become more like 6-8 months, becuase I will have lost my clan, so I will have no one to battle with,I will then have to start from scratch which takes a long time to work up a clan good enough to battle. It?s not an overnight thing.

5.) During this time I will lose a lot of my intrest in Rogue Spear sence the thing that I enjoy is working with the |?K|s and battling. Then when I come back I will not be as good of a player and I will have a lot of trouble starting a clan as I will not be as good of a player as I am now.  

All that over 10 words to typing? Thats not fair at all. To give a sentence like this you have to have the evidence to show that I tried to did cheat, Considering that you have no evidence and no proof, I am perfectly inocent of the charge of cheating, all that it is, is what people think that I atempted to do, I am the only one who knows the truth about what I really thought, and this is it, I didn?t intend to cheat, and I didn?t cheat. The only acurate charges that I could face for this is lying and is this a fair sentence for lying?
1.) I will lose my clan.

2.) I will lose much of my respect.

3.) I will lose my battle privlages for 3 months.

4.) The 3 months will become more like 6-8 months, becuase I will have lost my clan, so I will have no one to battle with,I will then have to start from scratch which takes a long time to work up a clan good enough to battle. It?s not an overnight thing.

5.) During this time I will lose a lot of my intrest in Rogue Spear sence the thing that I enjoy is working with the |?K|s and battling. Then when I come back I will not be as good of a player and I will have a lot of trouble starting a clan as I will not be as good of a player as I am now.  

Think. Is that really a fair punishment?

-Typhy