AK - Nixon ISSUE CLOSED ON 12.5.2002

[Typhy - Powerbook]

Moderators, Please send me any opinions that you have on this, I will send them out in the news letter to all members, that way they will have everyones opinions regarding this matter.

[Bondo]

Ok, here is my revised suggested punishment pending the AK vote.  I think the punishment should be a 3 month suspension of Typhy from the BL.  During that time he would not be able to be in any clan nor participate in a CB.  After the 3 months he would then be considered for readmittance (think parole board).  All the AK vote affects is not Typhy's punishment, but AK's punishment.  AK punishment could range from none, to suspension, to points lost depending on how things proceed.

Disclaimer, this is my view on punishment and not an official decision unless the other admins agree to it  

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Bondo, you know my stance about self-imposed penalties...

All I have to say is that AK has about 24 hours to make the correct decision or they will hear from myself and the other moderators...the only question is: Will AK do the correct thing?

(I am not joking, the shit will hit the fan unless action is taken.) -assassin

[Bondo]

But kicking AK would be just as self-imposed, they could all change names form a new clan and be back on the ladder.  I don't see why we would give a penalty like that but not consider doing the same to an individual.

[+-KoS-+ Gorf]

But kicking AK would be just as self-imposed, they could all change names form a new clan and be back on the ladder. ?I don't see why we would give a penalty like that but not consider doing the same to an individual.

dude, anyone could just change their IP, change their name, and get a new GR account, and start over.  That's not really the point.
When i was like 5 years old and did something bad, and i was "sent to my room" i just went up there and played computer games, no biggie.  But eventually it became boring and it was the fact that i couldn't leave my room that started to piss me off.
Lol, now getting to the point: The point is to piss them off and make them do all the work to do all that stuff (make new clan, new name, new everything) and THAT is the real punishment, to know that he can't be "R?p?d" any more.  Of course....  they could still be a clan.... which sucks that u can't really ban a clan from GR and only the BL.....  Rapid was right i'm afraid.... AK is here to stay.....  

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Changing names and coming back on the ladder is not likely Bondo...we have managed to keep Romulus banned from the ladder for a while. Individuals are easy to change, entire clans aren't. Kicking a clan would send a message...think about that for a second.

AK, please post your response within 24 hours in this thread.

[Bondo]

Gorf, your analogy doesn't register with me, I am usually forced to leave my room  

Sin, about sending a message, I thought the CIA thing was a message.  Also, the death penalty is supposed to be a message but it doesn't stop crime.  I don't believe in punishment as a deterrent, I believe in punishment suitible for the crime and AK getting removed doesn't (unless they don't take any action in the next 24 hours).  I also think that the fact that Typhy could get around the punishment isn't a reason not to give it.  It would be his choice to try to decieve us, but we can't always avoid that.  Just like in prison, maybe the prisioner can escape but we still send them there.

[Typhy - Powerbook]

Sin: You're saying that |?K| Should be kicked from the ladder for one sentence of words that one player said that actually didn't effect anything? That doesn't make sence at all.

-Typhy

[Typhy - Powerbook]

Again, it isn't fair to take action against a clan for one action that one player in the clan did that didn't effect anything.  Personaly, I think that a 3 month suspention is to much however I think that it is a lot more fair than punishing the whole clan for one thing that one person did.  Basically, you're saying that  I should have a suspention of 3 months and my clan should be ban from the ladder all from 1 sentence of chat??

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Sin: You're saying that |?K| Should be kicked from the ladder for one sentence of words that one player said that actually didn't effect anything? That doesn't make sence at all.

-Typhy

When you put it that way, sure it doesnt make any sense. I meant that if AK doesnt take suitable action, they are liable to getting kicked.

Sin, about sending a message, I thought the CIA thing was a message.

...

Just like in prison, maybe the prisioner can escape but we still send them there

Kicking CIADID send a message to the people who were around the league at the time...the only problem is that with the influx of newbies to the RS realm, this message was not heard by them (Not just AK, but all of the other rather new clans and players that have sprouted up recently).

Sure they could escape from prison, but the guards go after them like rabid dogs...most who escape get captured again.

[Typhy]

May I please ask that the genral public stop posting on this topic, This should be between the |?K| and the Moderators. This isn't the place to give your opinion, Do that in Genral Gossip, This is the place to present the moderators with facts.  Sence the Genral Public wasn't in the battle, they do not have facts.

-Typhy

[Bondo]

God what have I started with the Criminal Justice comparisons. ?Almost reminds me of the time when in my Pot Thread we had a long hypothetical situation with fake name people, that was fun, but unfortunately this isn't.  And Typhy, I agree that this problem is only needing to be discussed between AK and admins.  I've moved the other thread on this topic to the Gossip so it can be talked about there.

[Bondo]

Sure they could escape from prison, but the guards go after them like rabid dogs...most who escape get captured again.

And if Typhy escapes (reappears in the BL under a different name) we will go after him like rabid dogs and like an attempted escapee he would get more time added on (permanant ban just like with Rom which has worked for the most part).  I think Typhy would rather be banned 3 months rather than life so he would heed the punishment.

[Typhy]

Guys, I have already shown that I will not try and cheat my way onto things, If I would do that I would just simply force you to do what I said by abusing my power and banning some of you and threatning others. Also Bondo, that post by me had good points, I will move a copy back here.

[Typhy]

Guys, the question here shouldn't be wether I would come back under a diffrent name or not, It should be wether my actions warrent a 3 month suspention, Personally, I think that any suspention would be way to harsh.  Really, Bondo, Please, I liked that post that I made, It really showed everything and how I was being treated unfairly, Please bring a copy back over here.

-Typyh

[Bondo]

You are free to post anything that I deleted that you think is important but be sparing with your words, most of what you had posted wasn't clear enough to be helpful.  And I think we should hold off on any punishment talk until AK has made their decision, then we can actually make a decision that would be final.

[Grifter]

But kicking AK would be just as self-imposed, they could all change names form a new clan and be back on the ladder. ?I don't see why we would give a penalty like that but not consider doing the same to an individual.

I'm posting here for two reasons... 1) I've been around long enough to kibitz and 2) it's not dirctly about AK or it's punishment, but about why a clan should be punished and not an individual....

Bondo, banning a clan is more effective in the least over banning an individual because 1) the clan's identity is bigger then the individuals... it's not just chaning one account. 2) Even if everyone in the clan got new accounts and reformed under a new name... they'd be starting from scratch.  0.  Bottom of the pile.  That's something that wouldn't happen to an individual.  A clan can't hide like an individual can.  

BTW, before anyone knee-jerks.. notice I've not talked about kicking AK or what penelty should be imposed... just that I firmly believe that yes, a clan should be held accountable for the actions of it's members (it's part of what a clan is.... not a community like GR or your local town... but a tight knit group of people that chose to be a team.  People that disagree with me should probably go back and look at how whole clans would go to war over an insult to one member by someone in another clan).  We chose to call ourselves CLANS... it means something.  Also, to pull from the sporting world... if players in a university get caught being bad... the university is often punished and not allowed to go to bowl games or the like (not as common in the 90's and such as lawyers are now filing suit over lost pro contracts).

Anyway, the point is that yes, both in the ability to uphold punishment and in history (from clans of old to our own Battle League) it's been shown that yes, a clan is responsible for it's members.  It has nothing to do with making the punishment fit the crime... so please don't bring that up... this is just to where the punishment should be directed.  I know where Bondo stands on this... what about Ult and Sin?

[Typhy]

Again, there is a thing called "Suitable Punishment regarding the crime", Banning a whole clan from this isn't suitable punishment for me saying that overtime games should be played on training maze!

[Typhy]

Okay, Trying to be reasonable has gotten me nowhere, I hate doing this but here goes: This is the biggest load of bull shit that I have seen in my life!!  Punishing one person for saying somthing that they thought was correct which didn't effect anything is BS. Punishing a whole clan for somthing that one person said that didn't effect the battle at all goes far past being bull shit,  And gorf, you're one of the stupidest people that I know, Why don't you just Get the fuck out of the thread considering that it doesn't concern you at all!!

Sorry that this has to come to swearing at people however, The civil approach didn't work so I had to try this one.

-Typhy

[Typhy]

     Okay, Out of everything that I have posted, I want this to be what you look at to represent me in making your decision, Let?s start with stating what happened.

     |?K| vs |CF| Clan battle, |CF| Leads 5 games to 4, battle is going well, there has been a very little amount of lag, the whole thing is good, |?K| Wins the overall 10th game, evening the battle at 5-5, I then say, ?Okay, Now we go to training maze for the next games, we can do this more than one way, The idea is that in doing this we each get equal hosts.? We agree to play 4 games, 2 on each server. If one side won 3 out of the 4 games then they won, if this didn?t happen then we would think of something else, I then say ?The games should all be done on the map Training Maze?, Then that's where things started to get a little weird, Somewhere in my comments I guess that I said ?That is what was decided at the rules meeting?. Cow, Kit kat, and Nutterbutter then convinced me that I was wrong, and that it should go just as a normal game would. I agreed and everything went fine, on their server as our maps we did: Old Train Tracks, as their map they did: Siberian Base I. They won the first game on Old Train Tracks, We won the second, Then we moved to our server, They chose Siberian base I and we won both games on that, ( I guess they didn?t know that Siberian Base I is my best map ). After the battle we congratulated each other on a good battle and made an agreement that we wouldn?t make posts bragging about the win because it was such a close battle, everything was fine, I went to the Forums, posted the results and things went find.


     The next morning when I logged on, I heard about the posts that they had made, I went to see them, I was ( And still am ) Very confused as to why they would want to post that considering that it had no effect as to the outcome of the battle. People then started complaining about me, Personally, If I did say that was a rule that was decided at a meeting and all, then I don?t know what I was thinking.
     Now people are saying that I was attempting to cheat, I don?t agree at all with that, I was merely going with what I thought was the correct rule. If I was trying to cheat you into doing a map that I am good at I am sure that I wouldn?t pick Training Maze, I use a HK MP5A4 or an HK MP5K-PDW, ( Both Sub Machine Guns ), this makes me at a disadvantage in close combat against an Assault Rifle like an HK G36K or a Steyr Aug. If you ever see me trying to get people to play Siberian base I for overtime, Then you can say that I am trying to cheat, considering that Siberian Base I is my best map.

     The fact that Training Maze is one of my worst maps,
( Right along side Graveyard and Nuclear Power Plant ), I wouldn?t try and cheat to get people to play them. If I truly said that we decided that at the rules meeting, then I have no idea what I was talking about and that can be considered a lie, I have been brought up never to lie, that is why I am very supprised and still unsure that I said that. A lie is something that will get the clan that I am in a bad reputation. If this is considered a lie and not an attempt to cheat, then this shouldn?t have anything to do with the battle league, it should be a matter between me and the other |?K|.

     As I think should be very obvious by this, |CF| Has just showed that if you want to get someone in trouble it is very easy to do so. I was very supprised to see that they had posted this because:
1.) It had nothing to do with the outcome of the battle, or even really the battle at all.
2.) During the battle we got along well, we had a fun and exciting battle which was very enjoyable to play in.

I can be sure that had |CF| Won this battle they would have never brought this up. Again, it all goes to show, that if you really want to get someone in trouble you can almost always find little things to do so with.

     Tell me if you think that this is suitable punishment for lying: Being booted from the clan that you started and have spent hundreds of hours perfecting and getting a 3 month suspention from the battle league.

Compare that to a sports incodent: Let?s say that Steve Young told a lie regarding a game that had absulutely no effect on the outcome of the game or any part of the game, Is it fair for him to be: Cut by his team, and suspended from playing football for 3 months? Over one lie that didn?t effect anything? The answer should be obvious. Sence the answer is obvious that ?No, that wouldn?t be a fair punishment?, then the answer to me getting in trouble should be the same.

     If you think that I should get a 3 month suspention and be booted from my clan for this, then you have serious problems.

Also, when you make your desision please contact me and we will set up a game, I don?t want this to be the thing where you just post it and it happens, I want it told to my face.

-Typhy