AK - Nixon ISSUE CLOSED ON 12.5.2002

[*DAMN Mauti]

If you are looking for the Problem Drop Box I have opened a new. Just go back to the BL forum and there you will find it.

[Brain]

hey, good news
nixon did not update the ?overall ladder
therefore if you subtract the stats form the R6 and RSD ladders you can determine ak's stats for the RS ladder
(yes i realize this is a triple post)

[Grifter]

Ok, three quick things....

Yes Bondo, you should probably post and keep up for a while decisions made here so people can read them.   Sorry if I jumped a bit hard at that.

Second, attempting to cheat is just as bad as cheating in my book... as the intent was there.

Third, from what he posted and what he told me (NutterButter) it seems clear to me that Typhy did mean to do it and yes Cow stoped it.  Typhy claimed to have just made that rule up with Bondo and Ultimo and it was being written (according to NutterButter and which Bondo was going to confirm)....  So, since Cow stepped in and put a stop to it, I agree that expulsion isn't called for.  However I do feel that a clan is responsible for it's members... and much easier to police.... so I suggest that AK is punished, not Typhy (how can the battle league ever hope to actually carry out any punishment on an individual?)  Also, while Cow's actions do mitigate the situation, if AK is on probation (as you stated before Bondo) I think they still deserve a punishment and not for it to be labeled "no harm no foul".  Remember, it was this kind of thing that started the whole suspension talk in the first place.  Cow's actions should count for something... but so should Typhy's... and with the history, Cow's shouldn't outway Thyphy's.

Suspend the clan fro a week... come up with some kind of points deduction... something.  But doing nothing doesn't set a good example either.

[Grifter]

Well that all depends... if you recover all the data from the battle league that was deleted (which I thought I read) then it's not a punishment at all.  It was an attempted punishment that was reversed.  I don't think having your data deleted for a few hours or days is really a punishment... do you?

Now, if that's not true and they fall to a 0-0 clan... then yes, I'd agree that it more then coverd (much more then I'd have given them) the offense of Typhy in this case.

But, if it's all back to normal tomorrow (or whenever Elandrion gets to it, if that's the case)... then AK was never punished... that's how I see it.  If that's the case, repairing the BL would be Nixon's punishment, right?  I didn't think so.

[Grifter]

Welll Bondo, if it were the first time it happened I'd agree with you... Cow stopped it and that should count for something.  Just not everything.

But aren't they supposed to be on probation?  

And I'm still a believer that a clans members actions should effect the whole clan..  If Wrath had cheated or tried to cheat in a CB while we were in SWAT I would have agreed to the clan being punished for it....  Just like CIA got banned for the cheating of two of it's members...  the whole clan took the punishment, and rightfully so.  

So again, I don't think that they should be kicked for this, but even if Cow stoped him, Typhy still crossed a line, and he was acting as a representative of AK at the time, and they are supposed to be on probation...  letting them off the hook doesn't send a very posative message....

It's ok to try to cheat as long as you don't get away with it.....  Doesn't sound very good to me... especially since this isn't the first complaint.  

Punish AK, and let them worry about punishing Typhy...  They are the clan that needs to deal with him.  

[Bondo]

Ok, there are two current problems.
On the case of CF vs. AK, after enough discussion I have decided that Typhy did intentionally try to cheat by falsely saying that he had helped create the new rule with me and Ultimo when that never happened. ?I feel the punishment should be either AK booting Typhy out of the clan, or if they choose not to do that, then AK will be punished (that option is TBD).
About Nixon, he clearly removed AK from the ladder without consulting anyone else. ?That is a clear abuse of power so he should be removed as moderator and BL admin and given the Romulus punishment of never being able to participate in the Battle League again.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Bondo, you and I both know that we put AK on a zero-tolerance policy after their previous actions and unruly behavior. Why they would choose to test our limits is mind boggling.

[Grifter]

Actually, if it was a 'zero tolerance polocy', then maybe Nixon acted in good faith... shouldn't we hear from him??  After all, I know what zero tolerance means to me (and Bobby Knight) and this was clearly something above zero.  So, while he should have consulted his fellows, it may not be as bad as it first sounded......?

Also Bondo, ignoring the zero tolerance for a moment (which is a larger point), I would have phrased it the opposite way... that AK would be puninshed (and name the punishment) if they accepted Typhy's actions  (ie, not giving him the boot)....  

BTW, not to belabor a point... but shouldn't the other admins have a say in this too?  I thought you were supposed to look after the things they couldn't.... not deciding everything yourself.

[Bondo]

I wasn't making a decision, I was voicing my opinion and waiting for the others to voice theirs.  About violating the zero-tolerance, AK didn't, Typhy did.  You guys have to seperate the two, AK did their best not to violate it by stepping in and saying that Typhy was wrong about his "rule".  Also the point of my suggestion is the same as yours Grifter, if they don't boot Typhy, it will be seen as them not taking action for his cheating and then they will be held accountable.  And Nixon is in no way justified even on a no tolerance policy to boot AK without determining with others that it was a violation of said policy.  Nixon has no excuse for his actions.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Bondo, ignore my last PM except for the part about the two incidents being separate.

I would think that AK has 48 hours starting from now to take action or action will be taken against them.

[Bondo]

Agreed, the ball is now in your court AK, make your choice.

[AK_Rap1d]

he admitted to me that he did mention a meeting that formed the rule and I'm very suspicious about his actions

Wow, something new. ?I just want to get this clear, he told you that he told |CF| that he made a rule with you and Ultimo about CB'ing Training Maze in Overtime and it simply hadn't been printed into the BL rules yet?

I would like Typhy to respond so I can hear his side of the story in THIS forum for me and my team to make a decision upon his actions. ?This is more in depth than what I had understood. ?I will take appropriate action. ?You can count on that.

[Grifter]

Rapid, it's not new... it was mentioned in a few posts by both me and the guy from CF.... deleted now, but were there none the less. ?Hence why I think it was clearly an attempt to cheat and not a simple misunderstanding.

[Bondo]

Ok here is the deal, Typhy by most accounts claimed that this new rule had come from a meeting HE was in with me and Ultimo.  Assuming he said this then there is no question that there was an attempt to decieve (if not to cheat).  It doesn't matter if he tried to gain an advantage or not, that blatant lying isn't any more accepted.  Maybe if he hadn't said the he himself was there I would think he misunderstood it and that this whole deal was about nothing but it hasn't been the case from talking to Nutter and Cow.  Typhy, you are welcome and encouraged to speak up for yourself.

[Typhy - Powerbook]

Okay, Speaking as one of the only 4 people who really know what did happen in this battle, Yes, I do belive that is what I said, I don't know what I was thinking and I know that in doing that I let many people down, I most sincerely appoligize for my actions.  Please, Take this against me, not my clan, if any wrong doings happened in the battle I come here to take full responsibility for them. It was late at night, however that does not excuse my actions in the slightest bit and I am most sorry to everyone.

Here is what I feel that happened in that battle: It was a good battle, we went to a tie at 5-5, I had been told by KotA Coffin Dancer in an earlier battle that overtime games would be done at Training Maze, I tried to work things out so that we would each get an equal ammount of hosts.  I do feel that CF shouldn't be complaining about this because, Considering that my actions didn't effect the battle at all.

Once again, I am sorry for this, please hold these actions against me and not my clan. I am most sorry to everyone who I let down.

-Typhy

[Typhy - Powerbook]

Booting me from |?K| Wouldn't be a fair punishment for me, I have done a lot for my clan including start it. It wouldn't be correct to boot me for one poor action, only regarding one action. For this I have punished myself, I have personaly suspened myself from leading a team into action. Meaning that I will no longer be doing to talking for my team. This will be in action until July 1st.
Cheating wouldn't  be an acurate description of what I did. I am the worst player in the world at training maze, I use a Sub Machine gun, not an assult rifle making me not all that great in really really close combat.  I understand that I let down my clan and many other people, and as I said in my other post, I most sincerely appoligize.

-Typhy

[+-KoS-+ Gorf]

lol, hey typh, i think you need a class in bullshitting, it was a good shot though

maybe rapid can give u a couple courses in it at an agressively low price?

[Bondo]

See Typhy, the problem I have isn't with you saying (be it falsely) that there was this new rule.  If you indeed heard that from Kota, why didn't you just say that.  The part that takes it from a mistake that wouldn't be punished to a serious offense is that you made up a story about hearing about the rule in a ficticious meeting with me and Ult.  It just doesn't make any sense that you would make that story up for no reason whatsoever.  I'll leave it up to the other admin to see what they think about your self imposed two month suspension.

[Typhy - Powerbook]

Bondo: I have no idea what I was thinking, Give me whatever punishment that you and the others feel that I deserver, Perhaps that will teach me a lesson.

[AK_Rap1d]

Well, I'm announcing my motion. I have now asked for my whole clan's vote on booting Typhy from the clan from his actions in the |CF| CB. ?I will believe everything cow tells me, since he was there, and will now take a vote as a team on booting him. ?We are taking this vote based on all allegations and evidence. ?I ask *DAMN(Not Nixon) to give us their vote as well based on the allegations and evidence. ?We are gonna proceed with the motion and will await for everyone's votes (Or majority if some don't log on in the next couple of days). ?Our trainees will even be able to vote on this, for they are the future of |?K|. ?