Changes for Season 6 (The new Battle League, and why it shouldn't be.)

[*DAMN Hazard]

You do know that instead of wasting your energy here in this debate where no one is gaining any ground you could devote your energies to a thread along the lines of ""Improvements and rule suggestions for Season 6." Just a thought....

[Mr.Mellow]

Ahh. Typhy, didn't notice you became a Mod. Congrats. (Sorry for the spam, feel free to use your Moderating powers to delete this post)  

[guest]

Start off by having a minimum age of 18, to be a BL admin 'No offense to any present underage BL admins'.  It's been proven many times the younger ones are not mature enough to handle the international responsibility of just about anything.  Not to mention that's all that's being said over at the N forums.  15 year olds, should not be our "appointed" BL admins

[Typhy]

Headhunter, obviously most people don't think that it's "broke", who should *DAMN aim to please? The majority of the people, or the very limited amount of people who dislike it? It's a commonly known fact that everyone can't be happy with everything.

Guest, it's a computer game; the majority of the people who play it are between ages 13 and 18, shouldn't the people in charge be the same age as the majority of the players?

I don't see how age is going to effect anything. We make our choices based upon our knowledge of the incodent ( refering to disputed CBs ), and our knowledge of the game. Why would someone older have better knowledge of the dispute or game?

I just have to ask this, do you know what international means? It means involving two or more nations. Perhaps I'm not "mature" enough to understand how a dispute over a CB is an international incodent?  

[|MP|Buccaneer]

it's broke, it's been broke, and there have been no attempts to fix it...   hell, there's not even RESPECT FOR OTHERS established here(with all the flames and biased attitudes towards certain people/clans)

Yep, just like the respect you have by coming in here under an alias.  Which is even forbidden in the new leagues forum, isn't it?

People that do the shit that you are doing right here are part of the problem, not the solution.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Start off by having a minimum age of 18, to be a BL admin 'No offense to any present underage BL admins'.  It's been proven many times the younger ones are not mature enough to handle the international responsibility of just about anything.  Not to mention that's all that's being said over at the N forums.  15 year olds, should not be our "appointed" BL admins

Guest, first, grow some balls, use your real name, just like was discussed over at the N forums.

Second, try responding to the facts (posted in both forums, btw) that A) Age, religion, color, sex or location shouldn't matter in an admin.  Only if they do a good job or not.  And B) in the threads that have been posted here asking for their removal in the past, the majority spoke up for them.  Which means in YOUR league, they would have stayed too.

[Mr.Mellow]

Exactly, Bucc. Typhy is one of the more younger fellas in the forum, but he's one of the few that uses clear, concise language in his posts. He is extremely mature, more mature than a good portion of the people on this forum. While we don't see eye to eye on many (most) issues, I have deep respect for the guy. So you, sir, just go straight to hell. Not posting using your name shows that you're immature and a coward, and I sure hope you never become an admin in *DAMN or even in the Other League. Stop being so hypocritical.

[Jeb]

Ahh. Typhy, didn't notice you became a Mod. Congrats.

"another biased bl league mod!!!!"

[Toxic::Joka]

Start off by having a minimum age of 18, to be a BL admin 'No offense to any present underage BL admins'.  It's been proven many times the younger ones are not mature enough to handle the international responsibility of just about anything.  Not to mention that's all that's being said over at the N forums.  15 year olds, should not be our "appointed" BL admins

He could have made up his age and no one would have ever known the difference, hell I guesses he was 26 before i found out...although how can we really know that either...we really only have his conduct to go by...

Go bucc! You put my finnish thoughts into english words  

[Jeb]

My thoughts on the new league is that its a stupid idea...
and i probably should have said this first, but whatever, i like all you guys, and respect the clans involved (except rapid, i hope he gets aids from bondo).

When i first heard about it, i thought good things (no people of france), but then i started to realize that its a league that is being built because you don't like someone. Granted, i hate most people on gameranger, but i don't go around making new ladders like some internet gaming hoochie.  I notice the same type of talk from permabannees who always talk about how they are gonna make a new gaming client that isn't run by a pompous asshole, but it never has worked out.

Another issue i have with your system, is that from what i've seen, there doesn't appear to be a central leader(s). That can be an issue, as far as a struggle for power, which direction to lead the league, or personal disputes (which is why you formed the new ladder), its only a matter of time...

-jeb

[Acri]

Soc: That scenario would not occur with my chain of events. This is what you have to realize. YOU have to change a LOT, Mauti has to change very little.
If you formulate the idea until it is perfect, post a thread and let people discuss. Sure, people flame, but some good remarks might come out of it and you MIGHT rephrase your idea and then send it to an admin. Don't give me any bullshit about this being Mauti's fault. If I was mauti I would TOTALLY ignore anything unstructured.

Ever heard of someone who got an idea, discussed it with 6 friends and then tried to contact the president? Get real. Honestly. Think about what you are saying here. This is a democracy and you guys had better treat it with respect.

Vote *DAMN for only ladder

A vote for *DAMN is a vote for the people!

Vote *DAMN! Vote organization!

Vote New League and join the Lamer Union...

[Acri]

Hazard has got a good point! Look at Hazard! Get STRUCTURED!


btw I can't believe some of your arguments here

[th.Sentinel]

I agree with Jeb.

The fact that the league will have clan-admins isn't going to solve the problems, there will be new ones:
ie. one clan is accused for glitching, but its really hard to tell if the player is glitching or not, so it goes to the admins (who are all part of a clan playin in the league)
you'll get the following situations:
* I hate that clan, lets find another admin and make it so they have to forfeit, that would be so cool, hehe...
* Hey those guys are in front of us in the league (us 3rd them 2nd), he asks the admin (who's clan is in 4th place) to help him to make them forfeit. They both gain a spot...
* Or even a mixture of both...

Well here you have your democracy. You need a neutral leader to solve those problems. Which you won't have because all clans are participating on the ladder. On DAMN we have Mauti who's tryin to deal with that kind of stuff, and he does a pretty well. (but hey you can blame me, I'm EURO).

The point of this "new league" is to get more in control, like 2 clans trying to state, 2 clans who are always replying on posts, 2 clans (so it seems to me) who are trying to take the leadership of this new league... You can try and state as much as you want that other clans are involved, but where are their reactions? Oh yes, on the other forum... It seems to me your league isn't getting as much backup as you want... Try some better advertisement.

Oh maybe I will participate in it, but only as a fun ladder, like I did with the BTs ladders, they were fun. But DAMN will always be the N? 1

Try putting up some rules first, see how well you can handle the US - Euro conflicts... (oh yes, forgot about the 3 ladders where the Euro's will always have to fight 2, maybe 3 of the same clans...) And who's gonna set up these rules? .::|N| , c| ? (oh yes, the community)
Well then I wish you GOOD LUCK, you'll need it. Because your league will be battled on the forums... if it even starts... You'll get the same problems as here: the rules will always be an arguement and it takes weeks to solve some problems, and you'll always have to dissapoint some ppl. But it won't be c| or .::|N| anymore, no now it will be l ! l or  [OZ] (the clan names are examples!!!!!!)

I do agree with the admins: they have to be ppl who play the game. But didn't we get Civic as a new admin and now Noto also...
>> and age doesn't reflect knowledge<<

That's it for now...

So maybe now its time to hear the other clans involved in the league... (and I know |GM| is part of it...) or is it gonna be .::|N| and c| again...

th.Sent

[.::|N|SOC]

Some very fair points. I agree with most of them.

? The fact that N and c are the only ones sticking their necks out on this thread says more about the clans who were "big talkers" on the new forum, and seem to now be adopting some kind of wait-and-see attitude. The other forum was very active with lots of decisive input from other clans. Some have changed their tune, but mostly they are now silent. I interpret this to mean that they don't want to take sides in front of the DAMN crowd, in case they want to come back here and avoid future hard feelings.

? Stop accusing N of dragging this discussion onto the DAMN forum. Bucc brought it here, not us. He's the one who started this thread, right? Should be obvious. If the point is to have a thread where you can all bash us without any response, tell me so and I'll delete my account here. I thought forum meant discussion, not soap-box.

? My personal logic for the new league was that it seemed like the BL was becoming increasingly difficult for Mauti and the admins to deal with. I felt like it wasn't fun for them anymore. Too much complaining, not enough constructive discussion, and absolutley NO appreciation for all the hard work. I DO APPRECIATE IT. I thought you all would initially get upset about the new league, and then realize you were being handed the way out you deeply wanted. I now believe I was wrong. I think you really want to keep doing it, that you still enjoy it, and want to make it work. Good. Great. Let's do it by working together on the issues. Let's start a new thread and discuss them. People can choose to participate or not.

? Voodoo- I can't speak for anyone else, but personally, I think you are a decent, fair guy. I bashed you in another thread for no reason, and the way you reacted taught me something. I'm sorry for being hard on you. We all lose control sometimes. I hope there's no hard feelings. Same goes for anyone else who beat my skull in on that thread. I deserved it.

? Not every thread needs to be a constructive issue-forwarding meeting of the minds. In this cyber-reality, we need a place to get things off our chest and make forward motion possible. Minds can't meet without a precondition of willingness to do so...the forum works for that to. The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff, and finding the real issues. It's not always so clear. Maybe that's issue number one.

[sssickboy]

Hi.  apologies for being away so long.  I would have really liked to contribute to this discussion.  I think Soc thoroughly captures my opinions and feelings exactly.  And that most certainly goes for a lot of other silenced players as well. nice posts Soc.  

ssickboy - bbs

[MovingUnit:SOG]

First of all, I dont belong to the ladder or any BL for that matter, but i have been/seen similar situations in different aspects of my life.

I am a DJ/club promoter in the Los Angeles Drum & Bass scene.  We ran a club for a few years, and slowly but surely more and more clubs playin the same music kept popping up on the same night and other nights of the week, creating more supply than demand.  Ofcourse there were those that had "started" the club scene that were quite upset about other starting clubs and creating competition within the same crowd.  I had my doubts as well.  Some of the clubs went down in flames, some prospored (sp?).  But you know what happened?  The rise and fall of the other clubs helped expand the crowd base and scene dramatically.  Different promoters draw different types of people to there clubs, which would mean more people get cross-marketed to different sounds and get to explore other aspects of life, so to speak.

Personally, thru my experiences, i believe that creating a new battle league will help strengthen the community and help it grow to be a stronger more mature scene, because you can learn something from eachother.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

this thread says more about the clans who were "big talkers" on the new forum, and seem to now be adopting some kind of wait-and-see attitude. The other forum was very active with lots of decisive input from other clans. Some have changed their tune, but mostly they are now silent. I interpret this to mean that they don't want to take sides in front of the DAMN crowd, in case they want to come back here and avoid future hard feelings.

I agree.  And I look at that as one more reason that league would fail too.  If they are sitting the fence like this, they aren't really being honest or contributing in my opinion.

Stop accusing N of dragging this discussion onto the DAMN forum. Bucc brought it here, not us. He's the one who started this thread, right? Should be obvious. If the point is to have a thread where you can all bash us without any response, tell me so and I'll delete my account here. I thought forum meant discussion, not soap-box.

Soc, I copied it here because I wanted to make sure everyone effected by this (and I think all of us are) saw what was going on and got their two cents worth in.  I actually expected the conversation to be carried on more in the N forums, then here, but that was my mistake.  I probably should have linked it and pointed that out.  But it doesn't matter too much to me where it's being talked about.  The point it that it should be talked out.

You guys are talking about doing what the "majority" of the players want.  But if you are only talking to the players that want to split, and ignoring the rest, you aren't really talking majority.  I've heard that 5 of the top 11 clans (and I love how that stopped right above my clan) are behind the new league.  Well, I see 29 clans that actually CB'd.  And even if you discount those clans with only a few, you are still only considering the "winning" clans with lots of cb's, there were a few clans on the lower half of the ladder with lots of CB's too.  But what about all of them.  Why shouldn't a clan count just because it doesn't CB as much as others?  That's like saying a clan shouldn't count because it's in North America, isn't it?  So they should all count is my point.

My personal logic for the new league was that it seemed like the BL was becoming increasingly difficult for Mauti and the admins to deal with. I felt like it wasn't fun for them anymore. Too much complaining, not enough constructive discussion, and absolutley NO appreciation for all the hard work. I DO APPRECIATE IT. I thought you all would initially get upset about the new league, and then realize you were being handed the way out you deeply wanted. I now believe I was wrong. I think you really want to keep doing it, that you still enjoy it, and want to make it work. Good. Great. Let's do it by working together on the issues. Let's start a new thread and discuss them. People can choose to participate or not.

My problem with that is that it's all based on an assumption Soc.  You think the admins were tired of it.  You think they "deeply" wanted a way out.  Did you ask them?  Ok, you now see that you were wrong, but I'm just pointing it out so other people can learn the flaw in that argument.

And yes, I believe that new threads should be started, to deal with each and every problem with the league rules and structure as people see it.  So we as a community can figure out if they are really problems or not.  Just like I've seen happen quite a few times before.

Not every thread needs to be a constructive issue-forwarding meeting of the minds. In this cyber-reality, we need a place to get things off our chest and make forward motion possible. Minds can't meet without a precondition of willingness to do so...the forum works for that to. The problem is separating the wheat from the chaff, and finding the real issues. It's not always so clear. Maybe that's issue number one.

Yeah, I agree, but I think we already have that.  I just think the mods here need to go back to moving the gripes and quarrels into the General Gossip instead of locking them.  My opinion, and I should probably put it in another thread, but the GG is the place for rants and quarrels according to the description, so that' where they should go.  The BL forum should be here to help shape it, and bring up disputes in CB's and the rules.  

I mean, I see all the locked threads where clans are bitching at each other, and while I agree the BL isn't the forum to do it on, I'd rather see them moved to the right forum then just locked.

[*DAMN Hazard]

No one who decides to participate in the other league will be labeled a traitor and be stripped of privileges. Choose what league you want to participate consequence free.  I am going to start a thread about changes in Season 6 and I hope to see some of the active posters in this thread making contributions.

Hazard

[.::|N| DIESEL]

Thank Sick for coming back.  Its nice to hear somone listen to an intelligent post from Soc.  Nice to have you back Sick.  

[*DAMN Hazard]

I know this thread will be overfilled with ideas and so nothing is missed please organize your posts in the following format, it will facilitate the process of post reviewing greatly.

If you are suggesting an idea:

The Topic in bold letters(so it is easy to browse through posts and see what they are on)

The problem/solution. If it is a problem and you are not clear on a solution just state that this problem needs to be addressed and any ideas you may have. If you have a solution to the problem state it under a  heading called "solution" once again for easy browsing purposes.

If you are giving feedback/a solution:

State the issue you are addressing before your solution/feedback then express any ideas you may have or any new issues you want to address.

I feel that this will help both the admins and the concerned participates browse easily through new suggestions. I will make the first.

Weakening Forfeits:

I mentioned this in the Admin section and now am mentioning it here. Many clans during the main season were rewarded with 6-0 victories because of a "disputed win" or an argument won on the forum instead of the battlefield.

Solution: This season I think it would be a good idea for clans to get less points for "disputed wins"(winning by forfeit) and in turn the clan that lost would lose more points for a "disputed loss."(losing by forfeit) I think this will encourage clans to just play it out. I have seen this done at another ladder and thought it could be implemented here. I think we should definitely use the disputed win part but should look more into the disputed loss part.                                                                                


P.S. Moderators: if you see fit edit this post for better formatting or just to add something, do so.