Changes for Season 6 (The new Battle League, and why it shouldn't be.)

[Aramarth]

You see bucc, I have a problem.  This problem is the direct reasoning for my support of a new league.

Heres the problem:

Noto identified and we agreed with that hiearchy for the most part.  Bucc, you know me a bit better than the other "Pillars."  I have a lot of ideas, and the vast majority of them would improve the BL in one way or another.  I don't bother posting them if I haven't analyzed the heck out of em.  But the community as a whole has heard none of them.  Why?

I have several threads, still here on the forum, and even a pm to Mauti.  One of them is from early season 4.  In each I present a strong case for a different small change in the common workings of this league.  And do you know what response I got?  Until I began jumping around and waving my arms, not one mod even posted a "shut up ara."  Once I made a n00b of myself to get noticed, Mauti graced my threads with a post each.  The first was basically a "you can do it, but we arent touching it" and the second was a weak counter arguement which had he read the mainstream threads (not even required that he read mine) he would have known was false.  The pm has yet to have a reply, a month or two running now.

Now I'm not dense enough to believe that Mauti is at fault.  He gave me more consideration that I had expected in the one thread.  But the fact is nothing has come of them.  Not a thing.  Were I in your position as a respected person, or a mod myself, these simple ideas of mine would be among the changes you played with every cb of this 5th season.

And do you know the one simple reason why I am not a well known and founding member of the community here?  I did not play R6 or RS.  Thats it.  Simply because I haven't been around as long everyone views me as (dare I use the term) a whining n00b.  Heck, even my clan has done this.  I'm certainly not new to gameranger, my user number is 10k+ lower than nearly all of this gaming community.  Yeah, I was obsessed with gameranger when Risk 2 was in the top 10 most played games.  I tried to make a league for that too, but thats for another time.  It failed due to too few players btw, shows you how much GR has grown.

I've typed too long already so I will conclude.  The fact that my ideas are heard less that those of RS players is a bunch of crap.  However, its entirely expected in a league with a structure like this one.  Sure, I love having a league, and I would never just leave this BL due to this minor issue.  However, when presented with the opportunity to improve/frame the league instead of merely participate in it, how can I refuse?  To do so is sentencing myself to talk to walls when I have ideas.  To do so is to refuse myself equal treatment by the league.  Sure, I will always be a post-RS player to my clan, but no longer will the rules I play by be determined almost soley by RS players.

[Cutter]

how bout an R6 player?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I have a lot of ideas, and the vast majority of them would improve the BL in one way or another.  I don't bother posting them if I haven't analyzed the heck out of em.  But the community as a whole has heard none of them.  Why?

I have several threads, still here on the forum, and even a pm to Mauti.  One of them is from early season 4.  In each I present a strong case for a different small change in the common workings of this league.  And do you know what response I got?  Until I began jumping around and waving my arms, not one mod even posted a "shut up ara."  

Aramarth, all I can say is that I didn't notice them either.  

You are right, I do know you.  I know that you aren't a dumbass and your ideas are at least worthy of discussion.  But for some reason, one that I can't name right now, they didn't stand out.  But that's something that can be addressed.

One thing you have to understand about the hierarchy here.  The mods/admins don't really deal with the rules changes.  They deal with the day to day operations.  CB disputes, moderating, clearification, etc.  Rule changes are done at the Mauti level.  I don't think this is written anywhere, but it is what I've observed.  So expecting the admins to post on rule changes is a misunderstanding of that hierarchy (my opinion anyway).

And do you know the one simple reason why I am not a well known and founding member of the community here?  I did not play R6 or RS.  Thats it.  Simply because I haven't been around as long everyone views me as (dare I use the term) a whining n00b.

See, i completely disagree with that.  I wasn't an RS player here, or R6.  I've only been here a little over a year.  But you named me as one of the pillars.  I get respect (as far as my opinions being listened to and considered) based more upon how well I think them through and present them (and being persistent about them like with Warzone).  

My voice is heard because I think things out, and bury you in the logic of the situation.  Not because I played on this league for a long time.

Sure, I love having a league, and I would never just leave this BL due to this minor issue.  However, when presented with the opportunity to improve/frame the league instead of merely participate in it, how can I refuse?  

If you leave here, you are refusing just that.  You have the opportunity right here, right now, to improve and change the shape of this league.  The question you asked is the same I ask; how can you refuse?

Sure, I will always be a post-RS player to my clan, but no longer will the rules I play by be determined almost soley by RS players.

The RS players is a misconception that you have.  Yes, many of the voices here, the so called "pillars" played R6 or RS.  That wouldn't be any different in a new BL either.  Why?  Because the majority of the players that play GhR were RS or R6 players.  

I do understand that you feel the new BL would be more open to YOUR ideas.  But I don't agree with your opinion.  And more than that, I think that if your ideas were not being heard, that's one of the problems we need to fix here and now.


One more short note.  A few people here and elsewhere have joked about me being Mauti's puppet or enforcer.  But to be honest, Mauti and I don't talk, and aren't friends even.  We don't agree on many thing.  But (and this is a big, Jeb wants to nail it size but) I respect him.  And not just for what he's done here, all the effort and time, though that would be enough to earn my respect.  I respect him for the same reason I respect most of the subset here that have earned this distinction.  He's intelligent, he thinks out and reasons his decisions / opinions and he considers the well thought out and articulated opinions of others.  I don't blame him for not responding to the not well articulated or bitchy posts.  But when someone makes an honest suggestion on how to improve things, he does consider it and respond.

I may have called him an asshole when I thought he was being one, and even have meant it.  But overall, he has my respect, and he's shown it back as much as I've shown him.

[.::|N|SOC]

Glad this thread has moved "out in the open" so we can get more feedback on everything. I've been asking from the get-go to have the discussion moved off the N forums, since I knew we would end up with all the negative reactions including the N-effect as one of the reasons not to start a new league. Please, N has nothing to do with it, any more than any other clan whose members have been in the discussions. And these discussiond date back to well before this season started, much less the arguments we had in the finals.

Fah- sure there have been lots of leagues that started and failed in every sport there is. But not all of them fail, lest we would have none. MLB is composed of two leagues which once competed. Ditto in other sports.  US Football had a recent failure, sure. But without that upstart league, we would not have the NFL we have today. Designer cheerleaders, better camera coverage, better commentary. You can say it would have happened anyway, but that's like saying IE would be just as good if there was never a netscape. And what about safari? Or Apple Computers? Come on. Even your donkey could see through that one.

Acri, I loved the pirate analogy as well. Nice device for putting the argument in a favorable light for your views. Let me make a slight twist, and see if it still works to elicit the feelings yours did:

Posted by: z][t-Acri    Posted on: November 16, 2003, 07:24:09 AM

This is the situation:
We have a big, big ship called the *DAMN battle league, and we are a set of pirates. The captain of the ship is Captain Mauti, the most fearless admin on all of the forum seas...
Now, after a tough battle and an attempt at mutiny, our beautiful boat is not as beautiful anymore... The sails are down, we are leaking and our cannons are all full with birds' nests. So what do we do? How can we plunder the seven seas with a ship like this? Luckily, Noto has the solution:
Let's all desert the ship and try our luck in one of the dinghies!
People rejoice! In a dinghy, you don't have to put sails up (we all know this is a bitch) and hey, we can all play captain! Shit, we could row the dinghy together! Then, one day, the Dinghy Pirates will attack *DAMN to claim the title of Ruler of the Mac Gaming Community.

modifications:

The pirate Mauti has a collection of officers. He deleagtes a lot of authority to them, but no one, the captain, the officers, the crew, seem to know who exactly should address what issues. In a vague sense they do, but lots of the crews complaints fall between our rotting floorboards.

The crew is feeling particularly rambunctious one dark night. They set off in a dinghy, and by candle-light discuss the problems, and some ideas they share for solving them. They have set off in dinghies before, when they needed a break away from the ears of the officers, who occasionally stifle the talk before it gets going anywhere. This time however, it seems like there's a lot more crew in the dinghy than before, and they actually get lots of input and make some progress. They start wondering, "why should we go back to the ship anyway?"

Sure, they owe a lot to the captain and officers for teaching them basic seamanship, etc etc. But this ain't no slave-ship, mateys. The crew has all the oars.

Now, at first light the officers see the dinghy is missing, and the crew paddles back within earshot to let them know what is going on. At first, the officers scream and yell at them to get back on board. "You'll never make it you barnacle busting losers!"

The crew starts paddling away. Next, the officers start yelling out more comforting vacissitudes, and start acting like they might miss the crew if they leave. They say they "feel the pain" of the crew, and want them to come back and all fix the ship together.

So, the crew starts wondering, "hey, if we never left in our dinghy, would they care this much? Do they really want to change things, or do they finally realize we need each other, not that we OWE them everything for all time?" The crew starts circling the ship, chatting with friendly officers and crew still on board, wondering where to go, and what ever happened to all those bull-whipping cat-o-nine-tails wielding officers they remember from before. Are they laying in wait, ready to beat the mutineers to a pulp, and lock up all the oars, or what?

I personally want a more transparent and responsive leadership for the league. I will gladly deal with it being more cumbersome, if it is the price for knowing where people stand and what is happening. Sure, a dictatorship runs smoother than a democracy. Of course. But at what price?

[BTs_FahQ2]

Heh, nice work Soc.  I can definitely see the point of view for wanting a new league.

But first and foremost.  This is all due to people wanting to be heard and for better understanding so that the competition can be more fair.  I for one think that this can be accomplished just with reason and not mutiny.  

For one, Mauti and the hated admins have actually let this conversation continue on the *Damn forums.  If you ask me, this is a great showing of restraint and understanding from them itself.  Any talk of another league on my thread would have been shut down immediately.  Maybe just post your gripes and the problems that could be solved for next season.  This seems more of a power struggle than just trying to form a new panacea.  

I am just saddened that this thread did get moved hear.  Eventhough it directly involves the *Damn league, it is a blatant throwing of mud in their faces.  I mean, quietly form the league on it's own turf.  You never saw XFL advertising and tearing down the NFL on NFL.com.  It's just wrong.

I am not saying I am 100% against the league.  But at least be respectful and appreciate what is already here.  If you nuture and develop what already exists, then you can improve upon it.  If you want to go and create direct competition, well state it, do it, and sell it with your own advertising space, not theirs.

that is all

[.::|N|SOC]

bucc posted this thread, to cc: a post he made on the other forum. that other thread has now died and moved here.

this is a league, right? some people used the term 'community' which i love.

the fact that the thread lives here now is testament to their tolerance, sure. but also that we WANT the community, we want the problems addressed, and aren't trying to sneak around to do it. Obviously, we're now posting here instead of there because we hope it can get solved here.

but make no mistake- this is only getting this attention now because c| put their butts on the line and dropped from the finals, and serious talk of more than half the active clans leaving came to light.

if N had said, we're unhappy and we're leaving, we would have been lucky to leave without a sore backside from all the bootprints.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I can't wait to see you in that dinghy when the first really big storm comes up....you'll sink faster than a mafia informant with concrete shoes.

[Aramarth]

Sure, I love having a league, and I would never just leave this BL due to this minor issue.  However, when presented with the opportunity to improve/frame the league instead of merely participate in it, how can I refuse?  

If you leave here, you are refusing just that.  You have the opportunity right here, right now, to improve and change the shape of this league.  The question you asked is the same I ask; how can you refuse?

Bucc what all I typed meant was that I do not have the opportunity to change the *DAMN BL.  Included above are the reasons why I believe this.  I have been given no reason aside from your saying it that I should believe otherwise.  What is there to suggest I have a voice?  What magical change will occur that will cause Mauti to hear me and respond, or someone to tell him as an intermediate between us?  Bucc, I waited for that, and it didn't happen.  A lot of things in life are deadlines, and afterwards all arguement is irrelevant because the time for action has passed.  Enter the new battle league, stage left.  This league hasn't met some deadlines, mine being the least important of them.

[Acri]

Sorry I have to start sounding cheesy... but Mauti is not the one who has to change. We, as a community, must change.

Aramarth: You need to learn how democracy works, man. You HAVE a voice, but alone, it is not loud enough. Get some friends behind you and start a well-structured topic. (No this is not done often). If you want Mauti to change something, talk to people on GR/Forum until you know EXACTLY what you want and how you want it. When that is done, send it to an admin like Civic (he's the nicest) and he will peer through it and pass it over to Mauti and Elandrion. This saves Mauti from a hundred of loose threads that he has to weave a sweater out of!

Chain of events:
Aramarth gets idea => Aramarth talks to clan => Clan says it's a good idea => Clan contacts other clans => They say it's a good idea => Clans together formulate the idea until it's perfect => Clans send formulated idea to an admin => Admin says "wow aramarth is so clever" and sends it to Mauti!

Don't be spoiled! You can't expect people to pick you out of the crowd of ideas! Get structured! Get organized!
Vote *DAMN for only battle league!

[Cutter]

soc: two clans doesn't exactly count as half of the active clans

[Aramarth]

Aramarth: You need to learn how democracy works, man.

Don't lecture me on democracy.  For one, this league isn't one, period.  For another, I am passing my college government course with flying colors as we speak.  And do you know what I have learned from that class?  Just what I posted here.  Some people get heard more than others.  And in a system where any and every change is dependent upon the graces/free time of Mauti, there is no way to fight it.

cutter: read the list of clans which participated in more than 5 cbs this past season.  Seven of them claimed to have interest in another ladder, and all of those seven finished in the top 11.  This movement is made by the meat of the ladder, and that is why this is such a large issue.  Please try to read more than the last 3 posts when you make yours.

[.::|N|SOC]

Posted by: z][t-Acri

Chain of events:
Aramarth gets idea => Aramarth talks to clan => Clan says it's a good idea => Clan contacts other clans => They say it's a good idea => Clans together formulate the idea until it's perfect => Clans send formulated idea to an admin => Admin says "wow aramarth is so clever" and sends it to Mauti!

if only it worked like that. what I've been seeing is this:
Aramarth gets idea => Aramarth talks to clan => Clan says it's a good idea => Ara starts a thread on forums, others in clan post supporting verbage => People who don't like ara or his clan post counter-arguments, off-topic remarks, and "flaming monkeys" => a moderator or admin may or may not check in at some point, may or may not post anything useful or make suggestions => thread eventually works it's way down the thread list => thread is forgotten
this is generally what I've seen. of course sometimes the mods or admins might lock the thread or delete or edit posts instead, but that's not helping either.
Look, there are a lot of people asking these questions about what is wrong with the league and how to improve it. Some are being productive, some are not. The discussions on the N forum are still going strong.
This DAMN league is as big and strong as it has become due to a lot of underappreciated hard work from a group of great guys. I believe that. I also believe it has become too much for them, and their frustration has become more and more obvious. They may not want to let go of the reigns because they built this thing from scratch. It's understandable. But we ALL have to do what's right for the larger community. It's not up to anyone to just give in right now. If the old-league people just give in, it wouldn't be right. Same for the new-league supporters. Both sides have lots of valid issues to work out. Giving up on one side or the other is a guaranteed failure for everyone.

[.vooDoo.]

but make no mistake- this is only getting this attention now because c| put their butts on the line and dropped from the finals, and serious talk of more than half the active clans leaving came to light.

The funny thing is that you guys (Network) talk about how most of the community is leaving and and how most of the community hates me but the fact of the matter is that it is only "The Network" saying this. I too agree there are some problems with the BL but we address those problems and improve on it each and every season. As for me...I really have no idea why you guys hate me so much, because I have you on block or because of some words had between me and your clan in the past, but lets give it a truce.

Noto now has admin access to our BL admin area, he can read up on how fair and impartial I really am. Do you really think I would have been here for over 2 years now if I wasn't doing my job the best I can. I am really an ambassador for all clans. I really dont know how i can stress this to you guys anymore.

greetz,
voo

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Bucc what all I typed meant was that I do not have the opportunity to change the *DAMN BL.  Included above are the reasons why I believe this.  I have been given no reason aside from your saying it that I should believe otherwise.  What is there to suggest I have a voice?  

Either I wasn't clear, or you need to read it again.

First, your premise that you have to be a RS or R6 vet to be heard was flawed.  I pointed that out with a prime example.

Second, what was wrong with my reasons?  Did you consider them?  I mean, maybe part of it is your fault, how or when you bring it up?  Like I said, I don't even remember seeing your suggestions, and I read a lot.  So they weren't very memorable.  

Third, I also said that this is one problem that we could look into solving here too.

Fourth, it's not like you have really been banging your head against the wall, because that would have gotten more notice.

Soc,

I think you are dead wrong in the "this is what I've seen" part.  I'm going to give you some big examples.

1) Point System
2) Warzone
3) Siege
4) AA Ladder
5) Playoff System

Those were all changes all from suggestions in this forum.  How much plainer can I make it?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

but make no mistake- this is only getting this attention now because c| put their butts on the line and dropped from the finals, and serious talk of more than half the active clans leaving came to light.

Sorry Soc, but that's a load of crap.  I was against it from the first time it was mentioned to me on GR, and even before that (see last season).  And as you pointed out, I'm the one bringing it out to the forefront.

One more note, the league is a subset of the community.  The community is the Mac Gaming Community.  We are a small enough group, and this small of a community can't really support two leagues.  Hope that makes it more clear for you.

[AK_Rap1d]

This league, will not be named after a clan.  It will be named after Gaming for the Mac?, and that's what counts here.  People act as if change is bad, but guess what, change is good.  Especially when change is being directed by mature players, that have seen the flaws in other leagues(like the *DAMN BL), and are simply out to create something for the players, by the players.  Don't get me wrong, Mauti does play and all, but he mostly goes by what his buddies tell him.  He's addressed issues, after his buddies let him know it's a bigger problem than what he thinks.  With all that being said, we should not be putting pressure into one person, when there's so many others available, willing, and capable of doing it.  Even doing it better, since they'd be more dedicated, and happen to be more active.  Again, change is not bad, and anybody that tells you it is, is stuck in the old.  

Out with the old, in with the new.

Besides, all this energy, needs to elaborate, and become the good thing it's meant to be.  Now I don't want to hear negative remarks about it, unless you can make actual sense.  The simple "*DAMN's been providing for us" arguement, just isn't going to cut it.  We simply say Thank You for all your services, and come have fun in these new ladders created for the people, by the people.  All in all, have a good day. -Rapid [/size]

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I rest my case.

[Mr.Mellow]

Argh. What happened to the days of blind loyalty? There's only problems with the *DAMN League because you guys make problems. All of the things people argue about are very minor problems, but people create these gigantic ordeals out of them. Besides, talking about creating new leagues and whatnot is extremely rude, especially on *DAMN's own forums. Start your own forums to plan it, don't bring this garbage here. I'm sure a few people have stated what I've already stated, but I've only read Bucc's first post, and skimmed the last page. Not very smart of me, but still. I will never join another Mac League for R6, RS, or GhR unless Mauti and every *DAMN member perishes when the Apocolypse comes. Even then, I'll be dead too, so I won't be able to join. So there!
I'm also very disgusted with how the VOLUNTEER Battle League Administrators are treated by you disrespectful bastards. Once again, see my comment about blind loyalty. They're all nice guys, they aren't biased, they aren't out to get everybody. They rarely lose their temper, and when they do, that's only after being backed into a corner and constantly flamed. If they were so bad, 75% of the people on the forums would have been banned by now. They really should ban people because I don't know how they tolerate the crap they get. People think that just because they're on the internet they don't have to show proper respect to their peers and...elders.
Anyways, if you're going to start your new league, just leave now, and never come back. You've taken for granted everything Mauti and the rest of the *DAMN staff has given you. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.
If Mauti and the *DAMN Admins were women, and I were an old-school Mormon, I'd marry every one of them.

[Typhy]

Rapid, the "out with the old" may apply to things that have become obsolete, but if you want to have a cliche war here, I'd throw this in: If it 'aint broken, why fix it?

The *DAMN Battle League is by far the most complete ladder out there, and let's be honest, no matter how good the intentions of another league - how good their designers are, or how smart the creaters are, they're years behind *DAMN.

You think Mauti just goes along with what is "buddys" think? True, he often goes along with what the moderators think; why? Because it's our job to look at issues and see through them, as is his, so it only makes sense that we'd think alike.

And, as you said: All in all, have a nice day.

[HeadHunter]

it's broke, it's been broke, and there have been no attempts to fix it...   hell, there's not even RESPECT FOR OTHERS established here(with all the flames and biased attitudes towards certain people/clans)