Changes for Season 6 (The new Battle League, and why it shouldn't be.)

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Want to take a stab at salvaging the DAMN version of the BL and keep everybody on the same  ladder? Read the threads on the Network forums regarding the administration of the DAMN BL.

I have.  I even posted this message on the Network forums Gambit.

However, he seems to draw a line at the suggestion of allowing member clans a direct voice in administering this league themselves or having any kind of direct say about what direction the league takes on any level.

Where?  How?  When was it requested?  Where did he say no?

If the issue has strong opinions on both sides, a flame  war seems to be inevitable. People just seem unable to  contain themselves when masked by the internet. But I digress.

And this will be different in the new league how?  This is a problem that would need to be addressed everywhere, isn't it?

My experience with addressing issues to admins  in DAMN has been that everything gets referred to  Mauti anyways. That is my personal experience surrounding specific issues my clan or myself were involved in. If forwarding problems/ complaints to Mauti is the job of the admins, I cannot even say they did a great job of that, as I had to email Mauti directly to get action on one item in season 4.

What I see (and I do have a problem with it and would like it fixed) is clans that always appeal to Mauti, instead of taking the admins decision.  Admins make a decision, and whoever it goes against immediately wants Mauti's final decision on the matter (claims of Admin bias flying around).  How many times have you seen this.  Too many is the obvious answer, but some of the people backing the new league are the most guilty of it.

There was a similar 'discussion' after season 4 regarding the Administrative structure of the BL. If I remember correctly, Lothario even wrote a draft of a 'constitution' which was offered as a new foundation. The point is: this new league may or may not get off the ground... it may or may not  weaken or  even destroy the BL, but the same issue has been brought up after two consecutive seasons and it is an issue that has NOT been addressed in any meaningful manner.

Now, I'll agree with you there.  You have a point.  The constitution was brought up and discussed.  But as a community, did we every agree to any direction?  As I remember it, that idea floundered.  And it was done while we all knew that Mauti was unavailable.  So did anyone ever breach it with him?  I think not.

Your point about the difference between fair and democratic is valid Bucc. My question is this: is it fair to expect Mauti to perpetually have to give his personal attention to the usual s#!+ storm of issues that come up evey season in a balanced, thought out way when by his own admission he is ever more buried with his real-world workload? I think it is, if the current structure is the one he insists on maintaining. The end result will most likely be the same complaints and efforts to 'build a better mousetrap' at the end of every season (perhaps the league is in fact grown too large and that is part of the problem?).

I agree with you.  There are issues that need to be dealt with, there are improvements that can be made.  My problem is, how many people here bring them up in a clear and logical way to be dealt with here?

And if they can't do it here, why not?  And how will it work elsewhere if they don't solve that problem first?

You make sense in much of your thinking, but I don't see where it actually supports the creation of a new league.  The dots just aren't connected.  You see some problems, and articulate them decently, too bad that kind of effort wasn't put into fixing them here before deciding a new league is necessary.

[Valdar]

To me it seems that the new league is struggling with a lot of the basics. I agree wholeheartedly with Gambit. I would like nothing better than taking these great ideas and applying it to the current league. The problem is these ideas are not new and they were basically ignored when they were brought up in the past. I can only hope that these ideas won't be ignored this time.

[cO.Vickedson]

When does season 6 start?

[.::|N| VeNoM]

i cant wait till the next season to start, its gonna be great, a new leauge and everything.  Hopfully things wont gettin heated like they have in the last seaon, lets get it on, and to all that dont like it....eat shit....(im drunk) lol

[Jeb]

Two things...

The first,
Do you really mean to tell me that your gonna make a new league and take rapid away from here? If the answer is yes, i may support it.  

And secondly,
I think it has become blatantly obvious tonight that Bucc is a Gaming/Mafia Don who uses Mauti as a puppet. I realize that many of the "bucc is going to take over the internet" theories / fridge is a cheater notions now hold more water.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

The only real thing that differs from league to league is the way in which the league is run.  From what I observe, the *DAMN Battle League currently has a hierarchy resembling the following:

Mauti => Elandrion => Admins/Mods => Pillars of Community => Respected Clan Leaders => Rest of Community

The problem I see is that when clan members do go to the admins/mods first, the response is more often than not extremely slow, uninformative, or disregarded altogether.  If this happens even once, that same clan leader loses faith in this natural system and will inevitably run straight to Mauti in any and all future problems.  Eventually, this happens to all of the leaders at one point or another.  Why are the clan leaders so tight-assed at times?  It happens usually when one leader is answered by Mauti or an admin/mod very quickly, while another leader might never be answered at all.  Now I know a lot of you think that some of the leaders have no reason speaking in public, nor should they procreate.  I agree for the most part, but when you have clan leaders from all parts of the world, all ages, and a million different experiences, you cannot possibly expect the same use of grammar, nor the hoped for eloquence that you never, ever recieve anyway.  What's the point of all of this?

People need order.  People need rules.  Guidelines must be present in order for "order" to exist.  As it is now, everyone just runs around doing whatever they please like a bad rendition of Mad Max by doing things like: flaming the hell out of anyone and everyone for no apparent reason, starting new leagues, and playing Tiger Woods 2003 and iConquer CB's instead of GhR CB's.  For the most part, the moral fabric of the *DAMN BL, if there is such a thing, is falling apart rapidly.

Cool, you have identified one significant problem with the BL in all that.  And I agree with the basic premise that the "chain of command" for lack of a better term isn't being followed / adhered to very well.  

I agree that there is a problem here, so do others.  But have we really brought up that problem here to be solved in the past?  I don't believe so.  Not in this logical and thought out way.

What has been done about this on the part of the folks running this league?? Not much.? A few new admins, some scripting magic, and Evill with these new plug-ins (Yes, I know Evill is unaffiliated with the *DAMN BL, but he did a good job with his new plug-in).

Yeah, but I say it again.  Has anyone here brought up these issues in a constructive way?  Because I haven't seen it.  Gambit brought up a great point with the constitution, but we dropped that ball, not Mauti.

The other thing that is being discussed is how to proactively deal with situations.? What this means is that you actively search for problems before they occur.? There have been many rules in the *DAMN BL, both written and unwritten, that have been pointed out to be flawed, outdated, or biased.?

First, I have to say, I don't agree with the "biased" comment.  I, for one, don't think that Mauti was biased at all in that finals problem.  I think he tried to make a solution, and it just wasn't the best possible.  But I also saw a lot of that flaming monkey crap you spoke of coming from the people involved too.  So that same level of respect and reasoning that you are asking for wasn't demonstrated, in my opinion.

Second, there will be many rules written in any league that will be "pointed out" to be flawed, outdated or just plain wrong.  It's the nature of the beast.  Not everyone will agree with all the rules.  I, for instance, shout out that the whole rule about replays is wrong, but that doesn't mean you happen to agree with it.  Anyone can point these things out, but we, the community, haven't done a great job of trying to make it better here.

The community expects quick judgement on issues such as these, especially when these issues usually deal with the day to day happenings of the league itself (CB's).? I know I personally hate it when I post concern about a loophole in the rules, or an unclear rule that affects any and all CB's, and then have to go into 10 more CB's in the coming weeks knowing that not only is this issue unresolved, but actually get to watch these issues unfold before my eyes in the middle of CB's.

Ok, second issue pointed out.  You are unhappy with the turnaround time on resolutions.  Good point.

I do think that it is very related to the first issue though, in that because the process isn't well defined (anymore at least) or followed, that's the root cause of why things take so long.  That's my opinion, and open to debate, but you have to admit that it contributes and they are connected.

Now, I ask, where have we discussed how to fix this problem here?

This is what irks people off to no end, and it has been discussed before.? Ideas about councils, constitutions, more admins, less admins, more clan control, and new or updated rules have constantly been pushed aside.?

Pushed aside by whom?  That's my point.  We, the community are the ones that push most of them aside, becuase the discussions often turn into those flaming monkey posts again.  And yes, I am including myself in this bunch.  But I don't agree and would ask for solid examples of Mauti pushing them aside.  Like I said, we killed the constitution, in a few ways.  

And I can show you examples (I've pointed out just a few) of the DAMN BL being responsive to this community as well.  I'll even give you another real quick.  There's going to be an AA ladder added.  Now I think this is as much a waste of time as the R6 ladder is today, but that's ok, the league is still responding to the community because more spoke for it then against it.  Funny how that works here when I keep hearing people say it doesn't.

It is my personal feeling that there needs to be more control over what happens in the *DAMN BL.? I also think this control could better be metted out by the clan leaders themselves.? What better way to give ownership of a league to its members than to give them some control over it and the way in which it is run.?

Ok, we are up to 3 issues and 1 suggestion.  I don't happen to agree with your suggestion completely (I voiced concerns with it back in the constitution threads), but it's worth debate, I'll give you that.

There have been some very bone-headed comments over at the .::|N| forums, but none of those comments have been edited or deleted.? Everyone is able to have their fair say, and I must admit, just by the number of posts in the last few days, it should be clear to the *DAMN BL that there are just some unhappy people out there, and it's coming from some pretty well respected members as well!

Sure, I'm not very happy right now.  I've said so all season.  But I blame the community, not the ladder myself.

In closing, I know many of you think I am leading this charge.?

That's because you actually are leading it.  You are out there in the front, just like I'm "leading" the opposition to it right now.

? I am simply offering my ideas in a different forum.? They also happen to be the same ideas I have offered on this forum in the past.? I have no control if people choose to listen now versus then.

Ah, and there's the rub that really pisses me off.  Doing it in a different forum.  

I'm sorry Noto, but I don't think you, or many others that are cheering you on in this, have done a very good job of offering your ideas in this forum.  I know that the majority of changes that I've seen in the BL have all come from the community.

Maybe your ideas are just more receptive to that smaller audience, maybe you are articulating them in a much better way, maybe something else I don't see.  Probably all of the above.  But I don't think you gave the concerted effort to change them here.  And personally, bringing them up in a flame ridden thread isn't the way, and I've seen that said a few times in the Network forums to boot.

One thing that does jerk me off a little... Why are there 13 million PC leagues out there, and really only one Mac league?? Why do PC users get to be fickle when it comes to joining leagues, but Mac users just have to take it in the bum and smile.? Maybe having two leagues is a good thing.? Maybe having two leagues shows the entire gaming community (PC & Mac) that Macs are here, and they are here to stay.?

Ok, now I came here from the PC gaming community, if you can call it that.  You see, what I think makes Mac's special is that sense of community.  And it's that community that you are actively trying to split that irks me.  

Why do PC users get to be fickle?  When was that a good thing?

Sorry, but I'm taking exception to the "take it in the bum and smile".  I really am since I can only think of one issue I've ever brought up here that wasn't addressed.  I may not have been happy with the answer on everything, but they were all (but one) addressed.  And I can forgive the one, I only bring it up to be honest about it.  Yeah, shit happens, but not as often as you are making it sound with that comment.

One more thing.  The reason we shouldn't have more then one league is pretty simple.  We don't have a big enough community to support them both well.  We should pool our resources, not divide them.

If you don't believe me, look at all the empty leagues.  How active is MaG League?  They have ladders for just about anything, and the community decides all.  How many here use them?  Look at how many have tried to start up.  What do you think is more fun, a league with 5 clans in it, or a clan with 30?

Those discussions are completely unbrideled, unedited, and straight from the heart.? I would rather people get it out in the open so we know what they are thinking, rather than down the road see them emerge with ideas of starting a new league.?

Yep, and I'd had hoped to see that here.

This is done only because we feel that anonymity = cowardness.? If you feel strong enough to post something, then I'm sure you can handle people knowing who posted it.? It's only fair.

I happen to agree with that too.  The only reason I posted this in the DAMN Forums (besides the Network Forums) is because I talked to a few people on GR about it that were clueless.  They haven't gone to your site and know nothing about it.  But yes, by all means, anyone interested should read for themselves and comment on it openly.

In conclusion Noto, all you have really pointed out here are 3 issues.  They may be important, even critical, but just 3.  Think about that.  I'll ignore the anger and illogical posts for a moment, and look at just this one.  

What I see is you thinking the BL is spinning downhill fast because of these 3 important issues, and I've seen you articulate them well.  What I haven't seen is you try to solve them here, with that same intelligence, thought and consideration.  Those are all valid points, even if I don't agree with you completely, they are very worthy of discussion.  However, I think you guys put the solution before the problem.  I think you guys decided that the DAMN BL was un-fixable before you gave it half the effort that you have already given this new league.  

I am here to tell you that you are wrong about it.  I saw major issues addressed last season, and the season before, all brought up well and discussed.  I think discussing your problems here would be great.  Then, and only then, if Mauti blew them off (which I can't imagine happening) I would follow you to a new ladder.  But I honestly don't think you, and especially some others that are venting on your forums, have put forth that effort here.  

[alaric]

I don't really have anything new to add to this discussion at this point, but I would like to voice strong support for everything bucc has said thus far.

3 issues, issues that have not thus far been publicly discussed on this forum, seem to be the driving force behind this rebellion.

Even the founders of this great nation of ours recognized that revolution is only appropriate when all other options have been exhausted. Clearly, a sincere attempt to fix this league has not been made.

I hope that now that these issues are out in the open, we can discuss and deal with them in a straitforward and rational matter and not let quick tempers cause us to make rash decisions without fully considering the rammifications of our actions.

[*DAMN Elandrion]

Noto, you are right concerning the point that people need rules. Thats why there are the *DAMN BL rules, so that people can measure their skills by playing with a common ruleset. These rules have evolved in the last 3 1/2 years, and while there've always been some problems with various points, we have always tried to satisfy the majority. Note the choice of words: Majority, not everyone. It's true that this may disappoint some people, but it's simply not possible to satisfy everyone's needs.

To counter that, we've always said that these rules should be considered strong guidelines, especially the rules concerning the battle times. Thats why the rule says:

Attention: in the finals you have to play! The default cb times are one cb per day - EUR vs EUR clans at 8:00pm GMT, US vs US clans 9pm EST(New York Time) and EUR vs US clans 10:30pm GMT(5:30pm EST) and if your clan comes from outside EUR or US the default time is 6:00pm GMT. # of players is up to you. If you can't decide the default # of players will be taken.

Note the use of the world "default". Personally, I don't understand why this discussion has started, but i'll have to accept it.

As I understand it, this whole discussion has started because you couldn't agree with the Core clan on a time to CB. I have to ask you: why didn't you check your calendars a few days earlier, when you already knew that you'd advance to the finals?


Another point you've brought up is the missing possibility to have a say in how the league is run. I think Bucc has mostly pointed out my opinion on this.
So you want to run your new league by committee. I wonder how long it be until your council will be a big, bloated administrative apparatus that has to discuss every smallest issue and can't come to a decision because of its size. I applaud you because you are willing to start this experiment, but I think that this is a step in the wrong direction.

I think that you've forgotten one thing: a gaming league is not a nation! In some points, it resembles a nation, because there are rules, one or more rulers, and the people (= clans). But you can't run a gaming league like a democracy.

*DAMN Elandrion

[Acri]

This new league is doomed to fail. Why?
Well, have you ever tried starting something from scratch with a total democracy? Good luck. The way I see it, the people engaged in this new league fall into a few categories:

* The naive and uninformed:     They actually think they are doing something good, but doesn't really know what it is they are doing.
* The bitter:     They know it is better to stick with *DAMN but are too proud.
* The school lefties:    Nuff said? People who jump at every opportunity to be involved.

I have seen no creative outcome of the new league yet. You have to be Legolas to see the light in the end of this tunnel.

To Noto: I actually think the majority of people support DAMN. Just because ou got all the school lefties that love to beat the war drum doesn't mean you have the community behind you.

To Bucc: You are hereby declarded my hero. Stand strong.

[Cutter]

you ungratefull ignorant little pussies! mauti doesn't even play much anymore, hardly comes on gr anymore, yet still maintains the damn site and the bl. he even kept it going while he served in the military. so now two clans want to start their own battle league...i have a question for the network...what's gonna happen when it's only you and the collective on the ladder, and the collective forfeits before the last finals cb? gonna come crawling back to the *DAMN ladder? i hope not. a similar thing happened last season, a top clan had a problem with the ladder and dropped out right before the finals. they listened to reason, came back on the ladder and proceeded to win it all. for this BTs was applauded by many. after witnessing this seasons fiasco i applaud BTs once more. infact i'm gonna get off my couch and give them my own little standing ovation.  other clans have tried to make new battle leagues in the past (two last season alone). how many cb's were played in their ladders this year? none, they didn't make it. you kids should support and thank mauti and the *DAMN clan for everything they provide to all mac clancy players..... while they still support you!

[Acri]

This is the situation:
We have a big, big ship called the *DAMN battle league, and we are a set of pirates. The captain of the ship is Captain Mauti, the most fearless admin on all of the forum seas...
Now, after a tough battle and an attempt at mutiny, our beautiful boat is not as beautiful anymore... The sails are down, we are leaking and our cannons are all full with birds' nests. So what do we do? How can we plunder the seven seas with a ship like this? Luckily, Noto has the solution:

Let's all desert the ship and try our luck in one of the dinghies!

People rejoice! In a dinghy, you don't have to put sails up (we all know this is a bitch) and hey, we can all play captain! Shit, we could row the dinghy together! Then, one day, the Dinghy Pirates will attack *DAMN to claim the title of Ruler of the Mac Gaming Community.

[Cutter]

mutiny is an offence punishable by death! now walk the plank motherfuckers!

[[one] Gambit]

And this will be different in the new league how?? This is a problem that would need to be addressed everywhere, isn't it?

As I said- I digressed.

What I see (and I do have a problem with it and would like it fixed) is clans that always appeal to Mauti, instead of taking the admins decision.? Admins make a decision, and whoever it goes against immediately wants Mauti's final decision on the matter (claims of Admin bias flying around).? How many times have you seen this.? Too many is the obvious answer, but some of the people backing the new league are the most guilty of it.

That may or may not be true; I have no way of knowing how much hierarchy skipping goes on as I barely have time to keep up with what's going on in my own clan during the season. The issue I was referring to in my post I ended up addressing directly to Mauti only after waiting two days and getting no action. The issue I brought up led to the creation of the 'waiting period' for new players joining a clan during the season, so maybe it was just a matter of some things being too big for Admins to rule on anyways.

Now, I'll agree with you there.? You have a point.? The constitution was brought up and discussed.? But as a community, did we every agree to any direction

And I will agree with you (I am getting all warm and fuzzy with all the ageement happening) that the (re)constitution movement kind of evaporated into the ether. Maybe the fact that Mauti was in fact on vacation (as were lots of people... it was vacation season) kind of made the whole issue difficult to progress with at that time.
And so here we are again with the same issue augmented with another season's worth of experiences which indicate something must be changed.

You make sense in much of your thinking, but I don't see where it actually supports the creation of a new league.? The dots just aren't connected.? You see some problems, and articulate them decently, too bad that kind of effort wasn't put into fixing them here before deciding a new league is necessary.

Understandably, you seem to think I am throwing my energy fully into the creation of a new league. all my initial posts on this topic were on the Network site on Friday and related specifically to issues a new league would need to address. So I will now set my record straight and voice what I would like to  see happen in whatever league I am involved in:

Admins appointed directly from the clans- one per each clan that has participated in at least one full season on the BL (demonstrating stability of some degree). The resulting pool of admins would then be hopefully large enough to deal with each issue as it comes up in a timely fashion, with the added benefit of (hopefully) ensuring that no admins would have to deal with a ruling that directly affects their own clan.

 

So you want to run your new league by committee. I wonder how long it be until your council will be a big, bloated administrative apparatus that has to discuss every smallest issue and can't come to a decision because of its size. I applaud you because you are willing to start this experiment, but I think that this is a step in the wrong direction.

Elandrion's concern is one possible outcome: another possibility (which I see as much more likely) is that the committe would end up having a problem with UNDERinvolvement and a smaller subset of the appointed reps  would actually end up running the show and making the rulings. What makes it all a risk worth taking in my opinion is no matter what happens, the clans would have nobody but themselves to blame should things go awry. No unaccountable admins, no feelings of only indirect ability to effect policy.

There are certainly plenty of questions that would need to be addressed should such a system be implemented. As I implied in a previous post, I also feel that ultimately a single person must be in a position to serve as arbiter. Here, it is Mauti. no matter how much a new league would be structured to avoid it, someone would ultimately end up falling into a similar role.

As I have only been around for a couple seasons and have for the most part successfully avoided getting too deeply involved in the treacherous waters of the politics here, could someone please bring me up to speed on how the current admins have come to be admins, and for how long they have been admins? On a related point- is there any chance that 'admin burnout' could be an issue that might be addressed by rotating admins out (ack- term limits)?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

I have only been involved in the DAMN BL for a little over one season, but I think it is run pretty well.  From my experiences with a community this small, all I can offer is this:  United We Stand, Divided We Fall.  I think this community is just too small for more than one Ladder.  So, I am voicing (or writing, as the case may be) my support for only one Mac Gaming Ladder....this one.

Disclaimer:
The preceding statement was made on my own free will without Mauti, Elan, Bucc, or anybody else holding a gun to my head.  Thank You.

[Acri]

Dear Gambit and friends,
On this ladder, you also have no one but yourself to blame. You depend too often on an admin for ruling, and when he finally does, you are not happy with it. No political structure in the world can help you.

Dear Cutter,
Good point with the C vs N cb. I laughed at that one. I will quote Homer: "Hah! It's funny cuz it's true!"

Back to Gambit's post:
I've been reading on the Network forums and I have to say... it looks doomed to fail miserably. But well, since so many of the pillars of this new ram-shackle structure are too proud to admit they are/were wrong, I don't really think this will ever be acknowledged. However, using half the energy you used for posting in the Network-forums you could have formulated a decent and perhaps even good thread in THIS forum. ( Don't kid yourelf, guys, you haven't)

To the new ladder:
"I have nothing good to say so I refuse to listen to everyone else" (The problems have already begun being solved. Open your proud eyes and work with the team here.

[*DAMN Elandrion]

lol Acri I really like your pirate-analogy!

Elan

[|MP|Buccaneer]

lol Acri I really like your pirate-analogy!

Elan

And with a name like Buccaneer, you know I'm loving it.  =D

[BTs_FahQ2]

lol, XFL, USFL, ABA, WUSA, WNBA, WFL, ABL, WBL, IHL, WHA, NASL.....
will the list get longer?

Let's just see how this new league pans out.  Because these too thought they had a great alternative to something that was already there.

Only time will tell

[[one] Gambit]

You depend too often on an admin for ruling,

See now I'm getting confused about the structure of the BL... who else are we to depend on for rulings?

However, using half the energy you used for posting in the Network-forums you could have formulated a decent and perhaps even good thread in THIS forum. ( Don't kid yourelf, guys, you haven't)

Re-reading your posts in THIS thread, I don't see a lot of substance that contributes to a solution... unless you count witty analogies intended to belittle others as a means of improving the BL.

Now. to save you the effort of scrolling up a few lines and having to find it for yourself, I will quote myself:

Understandably, you seem to think I am throwing my energy fully into the creation of a new league. all my initial posts on this topic were on the Network site on Friday and related specifically to issues a new league would need to address. So I will now set my record straight and voice what I would like to? see happen in whatever league I am involved in:

Admins appointed directly from the clans- one per each clan that has participated in at least one full season on the BL (demonstrating stability of some degree). The resulting pool of admins would then be hopefully large enough to deal with each issue as it comes up in a timely fashion, with the added benefit of (hopefully) ensuring that no admins would have to deal with a ruling that directly affects their own clan.

After reading a majority of what has been expressed in both the Network forums as well as here in this thread and that sorry thread that started out as a place to discuss the finals, I have not only been persuaded to take an active role in discussing the issues that have led to the current state of affairs. I am also now convinced that every effort should be made to do it from within the framework of the existing league before fracturing what is already a painfully small community. PC players can afford to stomp off in a huff and form a new league if they don't like the league's web banner- there are millions of them. We owe it not just to ourselves, or our platform, or even Mauti- we owe it to each other to maintain as all-inclusive a ladder system as possible.

My proposed solution is obviously painted in very broad strokes, but it's something on the canvas. It may not even be a part of what eventually gets decided. At the very least lets all get pointed in the direction of a solution and cut out the sniping from the cheap seats. Please.  

[[one] Gambit]

To anyone with the knowledge- how do you do a quote which is attributed? I hatehaving quotes without a reference