Changes for Season 6 (The new Battle League, and why it shouldn't be.)

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I just posted this in the Network forums, but wanted to post it here for all to see as well, since not everyone may be aware of it.

Guys, I have to say I'm very disappointed.  You are really basing this new league on a bunch of bullshit.  So I'm coming out publicly and letting you know where I stand on it.

This isn't a flame, it's not intended to insult.  It's intent is to make you look at the mistakes you are making right now.  You can't build a building on a rotten foundation, and I think that's exactly what you are doing with this new league.  

And before anyone here says "who cares, you guys hardly CB", the two major factors behind that are 1) most clans aren't online when we are, as we are a very late night clan and 2) CB'ing has been no fun of late, with everyone crying "glitch" "replay" and just being whinny little pricks.  

I don't think the DAMN BL is perfect, but I'd rather fix what we have then splinter our community, which is what you have chosen, and for the wrong reasons.

I'm going to start with a few quotes I've read:

I stress again that this new league should not be created to replace *DAMN

hehe... a follow up to my own post..   Well, I think we need to make a stand and not play in the Damn league for the next season.

well now im sick of all the DAMN crap and I am ready for a change. I am 100% the new league and boycotting DAMN.

I just wanted to add my two cents on this one.  Let's say we were to be in both ladders.  My fear is that our new league would never get off the ground and it would die before it started.  There also might be some retribution from *DAMN and it's other member clans.

If we completely split off, I actually feel as if we are giving Mauti a chance at ducking out.  We all know he doesn't really want to do this anyone.  If his league dies off, and ours begins, and there is no crossover or intermingling, we should end up having all of the clans join our league anyway.

I especially like that last one.  It stinks of hypocrisy (especially when compared to the first).  You say in one thread that you don't want to compete with the DAMN BL, you say in another that you want clans to boycott the DAMN BL, and you want Mauti to close it.

Now, on to more of the crap:

This new league is going forward, we each have our own reasons.  It's nothing personal against any of the mods, Mauti, or any other clan.  We just feel that a better system can be enacted, and we want to make that a reality.

To Civic - The four US admins....
I believe the *DAMN league has been trying to find ways of being more appealing, but has simply failed due to their lack of interest in letting the public have a say in the way their league is run.

This is an exciting time because anyone can promote an idea of what is to be a part of this new league.  Simply post your idea, and then back it up and support it.  If people like, specifically the majority, it will be in the new league.  Now that's something you can't get in the *DAMN Battle League!

Ok, I have to call Bullshit once again.  People have posted and talked about many changes on the DAMN BL in the time that I've witnessed.  And the changes that the majority wanted seemed to happen, didn't they?

Face it, when things like the scoring were discussed in a meaningful, logical way, it was addressed and handled.  Same with Warzone, Siege and CQB.  On the other hand, flames directed at replacing moderators were usually brought down by the majority.  

One more quote:

Hazard and Infection are 15 yrs old, and probably shouldn't be admins for the league.  Dr. NO is a good admin from the US and has definitely been fair concerning issues from boths sides of the "pond".  VooDoo is pretty much hated by all of the US guys anyway, so really we only have one Admin we trust and respect.

Bottom line.  None of the issues with Admins should be about their age, what games they play, if you like them personally or where they are from.  All that should matter is, do they do a good job or not.  The rest is just bullshit.  I doesn't matter if you don't like VooDoo, does he do is job as an admin right is the only fair question.  

I hear lots of talk about the new league being fair, but fair and democratic are not the same thing.  Think civil rights if you don't believe me.  In a pure democracy, the minority get punished (ie, blacks not allowed to sit in the front of the bus, drink out of the same water, or allowed in the same schools).  It's not fair, but it was democratic (we can talk about the unfair policies of ancient greece too if you don't believe me).  So fair isn't making it a "North American League" so that we Americans have more say.  

You guys are pissed (and deny it all you want, but it's plastered all over your own forums) about the whole finals and time thing.  Well guess what, Mauti tried to come up with a solution that didn't turn out to be the best.  Big deal.  It's already been discussed and improved for next season (something you say doesn't happen, btw).  

You guys are just taking a small community and making it smaller.  Instead of focusing on the actual issues, and solving them, you are focusing it on bias (Euro vs North American, Democracy vs Monarchy, Boxers vs Briefs).  When it comes down to it, decisions are going to have to be made, and those wont be by committee.  The admins will have to do their job, and someone will not be happy.  Admins will even make mistakes.  It happens in all ladders.  

So I'm asking you, reconsider.  Put forth this effort not into splintering the community, but in making the existing community a better place.  I honestly don't think most of the people I've seen posting about the new league have put forth that effort in the old one.  I know that's what I'm going to continue to do.

And, like I said, basing a new construction on a faulty foundation is a sure way to be able to watch it collapse.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

One thing I should have added.  

I believe in loyalty.  Mauti, the admins, and the DAMN BL have given to this community.  Helped bring it about.  And they have tried their best to make it better, to improve upon it.

I think Mauti has taken the time to address issues with all people that bring them up respectfully, and even many that don't.

So while I don't find the BL perfect, and I think it has more then a couple flaws I'd like to see fixed, as long as they are working to fix them, listening to the issues, I'll continue to be loyal to them and work with them.

And since most of you are from N and c|, you all know me.  Don't discount my opinion because of a lack of CB participation (which has been brandied about a few times to try and discredit my comments).  I play GhR as much as any, and MP has given to the community as well.  Both of you have used our servers in CB's more then once.  So you can't question our motives honestly.

[BTs_Ch A oS]

What new league?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Noto from network is leading the charge (followed closely by c|Splinter and Rapid).

You can see more about it by clicking here. and specifically here

[Vectorman]

I am compelled to stand behind bucc on most of his points here.  They are all well though out, and quite valid.  I don't think making a completely new league is necessary.  As bucc was saying, we should work with what little we have left

[crypt]

I don't think that BTs is leaving DAMN, but we have a script for a league already paid for, and we will be re-writing it, we need something to use it on, so i don't think this will replace DAMN.

[.::|N| juGGla]

If people want a new ladder, whats your big gripe with it?

You dont have to play in it.

Also there wasnt as much accomodation towards .::|N| as you seem to think.

anyway....I dont feel a need to say much more about this post.  Feel the way you wish to feel.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Things pass, life goes on.? This is just like the business world that youve been harping on so much Bucc, in reference to Evill and GR.? Except *DAMN doesnt have a monopoly on the market.? Creating an equal or better replica of GR would be immensely difficult, creating a mimic of *DAMN, which improves upon the points that whe find irksome, is not nearly as difficult, for a number of reasons I wont get into.
? Think of this as a business and us, the GR community, as the consumers. Then this situation becomes is entirely understandable. ? An organization will lose its customers, us, if they do not provide the services that the general public demands, and the public, or portions who are displeased with the existing situation, will either go find another, better, pre-existing organization, or theyll make their own.? We, a significant portion of the GR community, decided the later.?

Oh btw, you said at the beginning of your post that it wasnt meant to be an insult, how praytell do you call other people's ideas and suggestions
"Mistakes"? "A rotten foundation""hypocritic" "Onto more of the Crap" without pissing them off?

[BTs_Colin]

Wolf don't be a prick.

We are not customers.

They do this for free.

You owe them likes customers do.

Pay them with your loyalty.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

If people want a new ladder, whats your big gripe with it?

That it's splintering an already small community.  I think I said that.

Not to mention the fact that building it on bullshit means it's doomed to suck.

You dont have to play in it.

You are right, I'm not.

Also there wasnt as much accomodation towards .::|N| as you seem to think.

I didn't see N asking for it politely either.  How many threads have you started looking to make changes in the BL (that weren't bitch sessions)?

Feel the way you wish to feel.

Always do, and I let it be known.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Colin think realistically.  We are customers, because we take the service provided by the *DAMN BL, whether it be paid for or not, and utilize it for our own enjoyement.  The customer owes the provider jack squat, unless the provider has a monopoly on the product, IE Evill w/ GameRanger.  This is a harsh reality though, morally we do owe *DAMN something, Mauti and Elan especially.  It is very commendable that they started this BL from nothing and built it into what it was.  But nothing lasts forever.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

An organization will lose its customers, us, if they do not provide the services that the general public demands, and the public, or portions who are displeased with the existing situation, will either go find another, better, pre-existing organization, or theyll make their own.? We, a significant portion of the GR community, decided the later.?

Problem is, I disagree about them not providing the services that the general public needs.  I look at your major complaints, and I don't see logic.  That was my whole point about a rotten foundation.

Oh btw, you said at the beginning of your post that it wasnt meant to be an insult, how praytell do you call other people's ideas and suggestions
"Mistakes"? "A rotten foundation""hypocritic" "Onto more of the Crap" without pissing them off?

Mistakes - if having a mistake pointed out bothers you, grow up.  It's not an insult.
Rotten foundation - was the correct term in the analogy of building a house.
Hypocritical - was what I saw.  Correct it if it's wrong, but saying it's not out to displace the DAMN BL, then advocating not playing on the DAMN BL, and saying you hope it will die off seems to be a clear case of it to me.

If I was insulting, I would have called you a bunch of children that have decided they are going to take their ball and go home because they didn't get their way.  That would be meant as insulting.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

The logic is that the public demand is for problems to be met faster, more consistantly ruled on, and a slue of other things that dont need to be gotten into.  

About the insulting, there are more politically correct ways to put things, but thats just your way of speaking and interpreting.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

The logic is that the public demand is for problems to be met faster, more consistantly ruled on, and a slue of other things that dont need to be gotten into.

See, if you had gotten into them here, they may have been addressed here.  That was a large part of my point.  There is no logic in thinking a problem should be fixed when you didn't put forth the effort here to fix it.

And you aren't "the public", you are a subset thereof, because obviously not everyone agrees with you either.

About the insulting, there are more politically correct ways to put things, but thats just your way of speaking and interpreting.

Correction, it's my way of writing, your way of interpreting.  If you chose to take them as insults, all I can do is tell you that's not how I meant them.  You may think it's crass, but I may think you too sensitive too.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

My point is that people have brought them up, and also its pretty easy to see from a mostly outsider & neutral point of view (see my whopping 10 or so posts so far?)  That things arent getting adressed in a hurry.  And youre right, I/we are not -THE- community, but a good portion of it, if the clans and people that have spoken for it are actually going to support it.  

So far, Vect and and yourself are the only two posters who have said whole heartedly that the new BL is a bad idea thru and thru.  BTs is providing the script for it that is rather supportive, dont you think? Crypt said BTs probably wouldnt leave *DAMN totally.  Most if not all of The Co||ective are for it whole heartedly, and im guessing that the same applies for .:N.  Quite a few right off the bat wouldnt you say?

[[one] Gambit]

Want to take a stab at salvaging the DAMN version of the BL and keep everybody on the same  ladder? Read the threads on the Network forums regarding the administration of the DAMN BL.

Sure, Mauti has done great work over the years in building this league, and I don't doubt for a second he has the best intentions and makes the effort to correct errors and weaknesses as they come up. However, he seems to draw a line at the suggestion of allowing member clans a direct voice in administering this league themselves or having any kind of direct say about what direction the league takes on any level. We just cast our prayers upon the forum fires and hope for the best. If the issue has strong opinions on both sides, a flame  war seems to be inevitable. People just seem unable to  contain themselves when masked by the internet. But I digress.

My experience with addressing issues to admins  in DAMN has been that everything gets referred to  Mauti anyways. That is my personal experience surrounding specific issues my clan or myself were involved in. If forwarding problems/ complaints to Mauti is the job of the admins, I cannot even say they did a great job of that, as I had to email Mauti directly to get action on one item in season 4.

There was a similar 'discussion' after season 4 regarding the Administrative structure of the BL. If I remember correctly, Lothario even wrote a draft of a 'constitution' which was offered as a new foundation. The point is: this new league may or may not get off the ground... it may or may not  weaken or  even destroy the BL, but the same issue has been brought up after two consecutive seasons and it is an issue that has NOT been addressed in any meaningful manner.

Your point about the difference between fair and democratic is valid Bucc. My question is this: is it fair to expect Mauti to perpetually have to give his personal attention to the usual s#!+ storm of issues that come up evey season in a balanced, thought out way when by his own admission he is ever more buried with his real-world workload? I think it is, if the current structure is the one he insists on maintaining. The end result will most likely be the same complaints and efforts to 'build a better mousetrap' at the end of every season (perhaps the league is in fact grown too large and that is part of the problem?).

If however, the power structure is allowed to turn and flow from the bottom upwards, we all might find that it does indeed work more smoothly and easily to have one ultimate authority in whom all final decisions rests.

Unless we take a chance- either under the umbrella of DAMN or under a different banner, we will never know.  

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Kudos Gambit, perfectly said

[|MP|Buccaneer]

My point is that people have brought them up, and also its pretty easy to see from a mostly outsider & neutral point of view (see my whopping 10 or so posts so far?)  That things arent getting adressed in a hurry.  

And with that whopping 10 posts, how many issues did you ask to be addressed?  How many things did you contribute to making it better?

As for bringing them up, I've seen people bring up replacing the admins or an admin a few times, and I've seen majority show support for those admins too.  So, if you guys work off a majority, how would that change?

Now, I've pointed out examples of where this BL has changed at the request of it's community, please show me where it didn't.

So far, Vect and and yourself are the only two posters who have said whole heartedly that the new BL is a bad idea thru and thru.  BTs is providing the script for it that is rather supportive, dont you think? Crypt said BTs probably wouldnt leave *DAMN totally.  Most if not all of The Co||ective are for it whole heartedly, and im guessing that the same applies for .:N.  Quite a few right off the bat wouldnt you say?

You talk about who's posted, then mention that your whole clan and others are behind it.  There's a case of apples and oranges.

On the Network forums, I see 5 or 6 people that are really outspoken about it.  I've also seen more then me and Vect that are against it.  I also see a BL with about 30 clans that CB'd this season.

My whole point is, how does splintering the community make it a better place?  And if you can't stay and put forth that effort fixing the problems here, how are you going to manage it there?

[Noto]

To Bucc, and others,

As much as I have tried to clear up why a new league is forming, my points do not seem to have been understood.  First off, no matter what league you go to, they pretty much offer the same things: forums, ladders, scoring systems, downloads, etc.  

The new league will not offer anything much different than what the *DAMN Battle League offers in regards to forums, ladders, scoring systems, downloads, etc.  The discussions that have been taking place about the aforementioned items have supported containing a forum, offering more and varied ladders, using a different scoring system, downloads & links to downloads, etc.  As you can clearly see, there is little to no difference in this regard.

The only real thing that differs from league to league is the way in which the league is run.  From what I observe, the *DAMN Battle League currently has a hierarchy resembling the following:

Mauti => Elandrion => Admins/Mods => Pillars of Community => Respected Clan Leaders => Rest of Community

This is what I have observered in the 3 of 5 seasons I have been a part of in the *DAMN Battle League.  When someone needs something answered, or perhaps has a problem that needs resolution, they can mostly follow this hierarchy.  When noobs have a problem, they many times turn to respected clan leaders, or well known members in the BL that I consider pillars of the community.  When clan leaders or pillars of this community have problems, they usually go to the admins/mods.  When the admins/mods have any issues, they obviously go to Elan or Mauti.  I know Elan deals more with the website and other stuff, as does Mauti.  The problem I see is that there is an inherent breakdown of this natural chain of command.  When the questions of the noobs is not handled properly, if at all, strange threads begin to appear, flames shoot out the asses of monkeys and poon jockeys, and the strangest uses of emoticons (   ) end up being used.  When clan leaders have problems, many times they run straight to Mauti without following the proper, natural chain of command.  The problem I see is that when clan members do go to the admins/mods first, the response is more often than not extremely slow, uninformative, or disregarded altogether.  If this happens even once, that same clan leader loses faith in this natural system and will inevitably run straight to Mauti in any and all future problems.  Eventually, this happens to all of the leaders at one point or another.  Why are the clan leaders so tight-assed at times?  It happens usually when one leader is answered by Mauti or an admin/mod very quickly, while another leader might never be answered at all.  Now I know a lot of you think that some of the leaders have no reason speaking in public, nor should they procreate.  I agree for the most part, but when you have clan leaders from all parts of the world, all ages, and a million different experiences, you cannot possibly expect the same use of grammar, nor the hoped for eloquence that you never, ever recieve anyway.  What's the point of all of this?

People need order.  People need rules.  Guidelines must be present in order for "order" to exist.  As it is now, everyone just runs around doing whatever they please like a bad rendition of Mad Max by doing things like: flaming the hell out of anyone and everyone for no apparent reason, starting new leagues, and playing Tiger Woods 2003 and iConquer CB's instead of GhR CB's.  For the most part, the moral fabric of the *DAMN BL, if there is such a thing, is falling apart rapidly.

What has been done about this on the part of the folks running this league?  Not much.  A few new admins, some scripting magic, and Evill with these new plug-ins (Yes, I know Evill is unaffiliated with the *DAMN BL, but he did a good job with his new plug-in).

What is being discussed with the new league is that there will be rules that give a black and white foundation of what you can and cannot do in the league itself.  People like to know what they can and cannot do.  If it is clearly written or stated somewhere in the beginning, then any infractions can be dealt with quickly and properly the first time, and without hesitation.  The other thing that is being discussed is how to proactively deal with situations.  What this means is that you actively search for problems before they occur.  There have been many rules in the *DAMN BL, both written and unwritten, that have been pointed out to be flawed, outdated, or biased.  The community expects quick judgement on issues such as these, especially when these issues usually deal with the day to day happenings of the league itself (CB's).  I know I personally hate it when I post concern about a loophole in the rules, or an unclear rule that affects any and all CB's, and then have to go into 10 more CB's in the coming weeks knowing that not only is this issue unresolved, but actually get to watch these issues unfold before my eyes in the middle of CB's.

This is what irks people off to no end, and it has been discussed before.  Ideas about councils, constitutions, more admins, less admins, more clan control, and new or updated rules have constantly been pushed aside.  Why would these topics emerge in the *DAMN BL?  Why would they emerge over and over again concerning some topics?  It's because this is what the community wants, and to the majority of us watching this league grow, we see an absence of concern or ruling from the people who seemingly run this league.  How many seasons will it be?  Will only one major change happen each season?  Will changes only happen at the beginning of new seasons?

The new league that is being discussed is definitely an eye opener to me as it must be to many of you out there.  I have seemed some posts that have blown my mind.  You would never have known some of the feelings of the people out there until it came to offering a new league.  I have seen some people completely condemn the *DAMN BL, and I have also seen some people think it's perfect and that nothing should change.  I do not think that the *DAMN league is perfect, but I would never say it was inadequate or needed to be taken down.

It is my personal feeling that there needs to be more control over what happens in the *DAMN BL.  I also think this control could better be metted out by the clan leaders themselves.  What better way to give ownership of a league to its members than to give them some control over it and the way in which it is run.  There have been some very bone-headed comments over at the .::|N| forums, but none of those comments have been edited or deleted.  Everyone is able to have their fair say, and I must admit, just by the number of posts in the last few days, it should be clear to the *DAMN BL that there are just some unhappy people out there, and it's coming from some pretty well respected members as well!

In closing, I know many of you think I am leading this charge.  In fact, I have had more doubts about this than most of you that are against it altogether!  I am simply helping to voice the opinions of people who lack the wording to do so.  Many of the members of the community have left messages, e-mails, pm's, and NF calls to urge me to keep things going in way of keeping my support up by strongly voicing the convictions of a greater number.  I am not the Napolean some of you make me out to be.  I am simply offering my ideas in a different forum.  They also happen to be the same ideas I have offered on this forum in the past.  I have no control if people choose to listen now versus then.

One thing that does jerk me off a little... Why are there 13 million PC leagues out there, and really only one Mac league?  Why do PC users get to be fickle when it comes to joining leagues, but Mac users just have to take it in the bum and smile.  Maybe having two leagues is a good thing.  Maybe having two leagues shows the entire gaming community (PC & Mac) that Macs are here, and they are here to stay.  Many of you have pointed out how this could be worst than the apocolypse, but I think more of you are much more afraid of the good things that may come out of the creation of a new league.  Think about it.  I think we could all use a little open discussion on this.  It makes you feel better sometimes.

.::|N| Noto

P.S.  To Bucc - I understand that there are some pretty tasteless and tacky posts over at the .::|N| forums.  I have been quite appauled to see some of the post I have seen.  I think people need to get their anger out in the open.  It's one of the many ways we can improve, even if it's not in the manner in which we would rather see.  Either way, I'm sure you can agree it still needs to be done.  Those discussions are completely unbrideled, unedited, and straight from the heart.  I would rather people get it out in the open so we know what they are thinking, rather than down the road see them emerge with ideas of starting a new league.  I think in the case of his new league, there were many signs throughout the past few season that pointed to it happening sometime.

For those of you that wish to view or post your comments or concerns to this talk of a new league, you can do so by going to The .::|N|etwork Forum.  You will have to register in order to post or vote.  This is done only because we feel that anonymity = cowardness.  If you feel strong enough to post something, then I'm sure you can handle people knowing who posted it.  It's only fair.

[[one] Gambit]

Now, I've pointed out examples of where this BL has changed at the request of it's community, please show me where it didn't.

There was a similar 'discussion' after season 4 regarding the Administrative structure of the BL. If I remember correctly, Lothario even wrote a draft of a 'constitution' which was offered as a new foundation. The point is: this new league may or may not get off the ground... it may or may not? weaken or? even destroy the BL, but the same issue has been brought up after two consecutive seasons and it is an issue that has NOT been addressed in any meaningful manner.

We overlapped on those posts, I  think.