Season X: Suggested Sheep Bet solution - Your Opinion!

[*DAMN Mauti]

Alright this will be the first of a few topics were we, the *DBL admin team, present worked out solutions to problems we have experienced in past seasons. This worked out solutions often are built up on the input you gave us in this forum. We took your wishes, looked what other solutions could be possible, thought about the consequences it could have, set the solution in context with other rules, etc. Now we need your feedback so we can decide the final decision for season X.

I want to start with the sheep bet system:

I didn't add any sheep bet limits at the start of season 9, because I wanted to keep the new system as simple as possible, and hoped that sportmenship will make it unnecessary to add any limits, well time has shown that a kind of limitation will be required for season X, because as we have seen in season 9 if a clans loses their motivation they may give away all their sheep for free in a cb were they will lose.

I personally think percentage limits are stupid because you always have to do math and think how many sheep you can bet. As a consequence we first broke down the reasons into small pieces to get the reasons why clans would give away all their sheep for free:

1.) lack of motivation, because they aren't really interested in ladder playing, they registered once but now they don't care anymore. They have never invested much time into playing just 3 - 4 cbs but they never felt really involved. So such clans can be easy persuaded to bet all their sheep in one cb.

2.) Cheating the system - a clan was found for the only reason to give away many sheep for free

3.) In the very last second of the season were you want to persuade another clan to a "all or nothing" cb.

Alright this are the main reasons why a clan would do an unreasonable sheep bet so here is our 3 step solution so far:

1.) To get clans "into" the ladder, to get them to a point were they feel they have already so much time invested that they don't give up that easily, we would add a sheep bet limit to all clans for the first 8 cbs! This sheep bet limit would be 20 sheep per max you can offer for your first 8 cbs. Because we came to the conclusion that when a clan has already done 8cbs at a ladder, they already know what to do and how to do it. They have lost their noob status, so they can't be persuaded that easily to offer all their sheep at their first cb already. Further you played already that much, why should you give up now?

2.) With the above rule addition the risk of a fake clan that gets you easily many sheep is limited. Now you have to invest much more time if you really want to take the risk of creating a fake clan.

3.) You all know the chaos in the last week of the season. Tons of cbs get played to still gather a place in the finals. To calm down people and focus more on the main season we would like to add a sheep bet limit for the last week, where each clan can only bet 20 sheep. This means you have to risk already more in the main season, and further the risk that in the very last second a clan offers all their sheep in 1 cb is eliminated.

The 3rd step of our solution would include an overall sheep bet limit of 50 sheep per bet you can offer after you have played 8 cbs. This limit has been chosen because the highest bets that have been bet more than once were between 40 and 50. So we think this is a reasonable limit, even if you want to risk very much, or lure other clans with many sheep to cb you.

So in the end it will be a simple 8cb 20 - 50 - 20 sheep bet limit.

Alright please leave your comments. If you agree if you would change something, if you have another great idea that you thing is easier to understand and to follow, let us know!

I gonna start now the next topic about the limit how often you can cb a clan per season in the team ladders.

Bye,

Mauti

[DarK.]

I might have missed it, but did you adress the amount of times a clan can play another clan?

[cO.twist]

This isn't going to help...after 8 cb's, then you can bet 50, which queer clans will do. After 8 cb's is when most of the teams lose motivation anyways....if you do this you will also probably set a limit on how many cb's we can have against each individual clan, which isnt cool either.  Mauti you say you dont want to complicate things by adding a simple limit...Well, you are adding different limits at 3 different times of the season....thats a hell of a lot more complicated.  If you set the sheep limit for the entire season (20 is pushing it), then clans will be encouraged to play more to get more points.  Can the DBL Admins not just ask all of the clan leaders of the dbl for the opinions of their clan and do it that way?  i guarantee you that you'll have a different, better solution.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Dark look at my last sentence 

Twist at all it is a simple 8cbs 20 - 50 - 20 limit. So not that complicated at all.

The reason why we didn't 1 limit is simple: one idea of the sheep system is that you can lure other clans by offering much more sheep because you think you will win anyway. If you offer only 20 like anyone can, they may won't accept, but up to 50 sounds good to persuade a clan to take the risk and play.

If you observe the results of season 9 - you will see that often clans bet extremly much in their first cbs because they didn't have a feeling for the value of 1 sheep. So I think this will help a lot to get the clans used to it before doing some big bets.

Bye,

Mauti

[DarK.]

Thanks Mauti, And I do think that 50 may be about 10 - 20 too many, 30 -40 would be a much better range, In my personal opinioin (I like the way you have done it Mauti) I think that 35 might be a better mid season number rather than 50 (realise I am compromising I would rather have 20 all season, but I do like the remaking a max at the end of the season) I personally think that 30 would be the most that should be bet, but I do think that compromise is the way the world works so 35 

[cO.twist]

um, well if you look at season 9, you will notice that every cb that is between actual good clans, the sheep bet ranges from about 5-15.  People arent going to use that 50 sheep to 'lure' clans into winning, all you are going to do is have the same problem as last season.  You're just delaying it 8 cb's.

[BTs_Mysterio]

I would support this rule in all but one point, it should be after 5 cbs not 8. The main problem with a bet limit is that it would be hard to persuade clans using uneven bets to the max.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Twist, often you use the more sheep to lure worse clans not even clans, because they afraid to battle you and this helps you. Good vs Good clans, when both think the chance will be 50 - 50 they often more cautious and bet only an average number. So far my point let's listen what the other think about the 8cbs - 20 - 50 - 20 limit.

Myst, may I'm right that you would like to see a lower starter limit looking at the overall activity in RvS?

Bye,

Mauti

[cO.twist]

Well, obviously it isnt up to me.  But there are clans out there that love cbing each other, because its more of a challenge. If you decide to go w/ this solution, can we compromise and maybe have it set at 10 cb's per season?  Only giving 2 more isnt going to help all that much, and like i said, we don't only cb on the weekends.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Mauti, here's a real solution.

Number limits are going to be very hard to agree upon, so why not have a limit on the number of times greater a number could be, so like a 2x limit:

ex.  Clan 1 bets 10 sheep
   so Clan 2 can convince them into it by betting 20

Perhaps use this after the newb cb trial period (5cbs - 8cbs) and a 20-30 sheep limit pre-trial. This may solve some problems and still allow heavy competition. As you saw near the end of the season (in a relatively slow one) there were a lot of clans well over 100 and larger number CBs between those adds a element of competition that a cap could take away. The mere fact that 50 is a cap may make clans taboo the though of betting near it.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Here is the problem that we had a few 1 - 10 sheep bets were this wouldn't work. So I went away from any relative solutions because they work for example for high bets but not for lower bets...

At all I just want to wait to hear more opinions so I get a better overview what other persons think.

I get back to you tomorrow. I'm going to bed now.

Bye,

Mauti

[cO.twist]

ok betting 50 sheep at the end to get into the finals is crap..the teams that play all season, and are at the top should be in the finals.  Its like any other sport...the teams that do the best throughout the season goes into the playoffs.  Trying to bet 50 towards the end to get into the finals is lame.

[cO.gabe]

They have lost their noob status, so they can't be persuaded that easily to offer all their sheep at their first cb already. Further you played already that much, why should you give up now?

You should give up now for one simple reason - because if you are a 'noob' clan, you won't win those 8 cbs, and you'll probably have given up for that reason alone.  You don't give up noob status by playing 8 cbs.. you give up noob status by winning 8 cbs.  Don't we all know that the clans who give up all their sheep are ones who never win??

That said, this whole system is making it work so that less challenging CBs are worth more than more challenging CBs!!.  IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!!!

Let me clarify.  The two best clans in the league are not going to bet a lot of sheep vs eachother, simply because it's too risky.  In the case of the best clan vs. the worst clan, there is going to be a higher sheep bet.  It makes absolutely no sense that Leet clan should should get more points for beating Noob clan than for beating Other Leet clan.

This is just how things work people, you aren't going to change fundamental human behavior by setting a few restrictions that were thought up in an hour... you need to change the system to get rid of the problem alltogether.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Gabe, you're making generalizations. I've see many terrible clans in low sheep CBs, yet top # CBs sometimes involved top clans. I don't see what you mean by clans loosing their will 8 CBs into a season. This is a ladder that goes on 60 days, if you can't do 8 CBs in that time you shouldn't be near the finals.

[ghost.fr]

waoooo again i'm lost!! why does it have to be so complicate!!!

is there no rules in this world that we could aply  to us without having to invent so many new!!

anyway we will do what u all say but plz make it simple !!!

[cO.gabe]

What I'm really trying to say is, the betting system may have fixed the problem of motivation to cb, but it has screwed up the rest of the league in the process.  There needs to be either very little variation between bet amounts, or a fixed point system (for example, 10 sheep for every cb, no matter what time of season or which clans its between).

[BTs_Mysterio]

10 sheep is ridiculous! If you don't want a competitive ladder go play mock CBs on GR. There are bet limits at casinos, but not ones that damage your ability to go anywhere!

[Ein]

um, well if you look at season 9, you will notice that every cb that is between actual good clans, the sheep bet ranges from about 5-15.  People arent going to use that 50 sheep to 'lure' clans into winning, all you are going to do is have the same problem as last season.  You're just delaying it 8 cb's.

not true, Twist... [01] had some sheep bets of 20, actualy a few of em in the cqb ladder where they finished in 2nd.

As for the system, I think it was a great idea that appeals to many sides of this matter

Ein

[cO.gabe]

10 sheep is ridiculous! If you don't want a competitive ladder go play mock CBs on GR. There are bet limits at casinos, but not ones that damage your ability to go anywhere!

well you see mysterio... i like a competitive ladder, as long as it works.  I liked the old point system with that more complex algorithm, but the sheep thing sucks dick.  Fake clans to give you more sheep, insane sheep bets, etc.  Changing the limits at the beginning of the season isnt going to change jack shit.  A set # might not either, but all I know is that what we have now it complete crap.  Hey.. i mean if you're one of those people who likes to take advantage of noob clans and win the ladder by going 50 and 0 in all 5-0 cb's, it might be fun for you.  But it sure sounds like a waste of time to me.  There is absolutely no incentive for clans to play other good clans.

and btw myst, the number 10 was just an example.  In addition, I don't think you're grasping the fact that it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, as long as everyone is betting in the same range.  10 sheep could be a lot if you want it to be.  Hey man.. make it 10000 for all I care, All I was suggesting is that everyone bets the same number, but after thinking about it a little more I think we need something totally different.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Not to troll but, Macclans (when set up soon) uses a point system and doesn't have a CB # limit.... back on topic, the sheep system is good and has a few flaws to fix. The way you say things you'd think there were 100 fakes clans cbing last season.