ADMIN Ruling on BTs & -MP5- FINAL RULING

[Acri]

Playing Season 8 without the BTs will be no fun. They are to many the best way to measure skills and many clans compare their results vs BTs to see what clan is the best.

I may not get along with all of them all the time, but I respect them a lot. Those are some damn solid players.

Although the BTs did behave bad on this event and have behaved badly before, I see them banned as a bad thing (no matter how  much they might have deserved it). The BTs play a LOT of cbs and banning them will have direct effects on the entire ladder. Don't punish the entire community for this fuck up. Instead, just remove them from the RvS finals and give them warning points for the next season. A lot of em, so that if they mess up again, they have to wait out.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Hey Bucc, did you read Aramarths post about MP5 requesting an extension? I know you know we didnt ask for an extention though...

Just wondering.......

Read his post about it, now, after this has all been decided.  Does that change anything I've said?  No.  Did I say they never asked anyone?

Did that say you weren't consulted before the decision was made?  Because I was in PM contact with both clans before the decision was made.  So were others, and that counts as consulting (since we were talking about it).

[Fusion]

You were talking with Typhy?..... Since you were in a chat with mp5, did they not say they wanted an extention?

[BTs_Mysterio]

Acri, this isn't some sort of popularity comment. BTs was very inactive on the RvS ladder and their absence will have no affect on it. The GhR ladder is active "to the extreme" and may very well continue to be so. They are good guys, but I don't agree with what they have said about my clan, and them questioning the BL that built this community. Secondly, I totally disagree with the first part of your post, season 8 will be what each and every clan makes of it.

Since I like the guys in BTs, and don't want a argument within a argument forming, I wont comment on that "measure up to" comment.

[BTs_eight]

Myst no arguement here but mp5 was 14 games in the RvS ladder... BTs was 10 games... second most active in the RvS ladder and over 60 cbs in all ladders...

You cant say we were inactive in that ladder... could u? or inactice in any ladder compared to any other clan for that matter...

[Croosch]

No disrespect to *DAMN or the clans who competed in the Raven Shield ladder finals.  But my belief, BTs had a right to speak out on this issue, MP5 broke the rules and BTs was knocked out of finals for this. Then to make a bad decision worse Battle Tek Squad was banned after speaking out on the subject. This post is not to make a decision change, rather state my opinion on the issue. This will be a lonely season without BTs.

               ~Krush

[Aramarth]

By speaking out, do you mean defying rulings? I think the community is missing, for the most part, that BTs was banned for refusing admin decisions, not for anything over the weekend.

Ara

[.vooDoo.]

Saberian,

As one of the leaders of the MP, a clan you suggest play off, I think I'd have to say no for us being involved in the finals at all.  I was way too involved in what went on here, and it just wouldn't be right, in my opinion.  

While being completely wrong, a couple people here accused me of having exactly this in mind, and it being my motivation for making the choices I did.  I will not be adding fuel to that fire if I have a choice.

I agree also. BoC wont play in the finals either.

[crypt]

I suggest giving the title to c| (hard-earned, of course) and discussing new terms for how to avoid this in the off-season, this post is getting us nowhere, we're just all pointing out to each other what we've known since day 1 repeatedly.

[Noto]

By speaking out, do you mean defying rulings? I think the community is missing, for the most part, that BTs was banned for refusing admin decisions, not for anything over the weekend.

Ara

If BTs had said they accepted the ruling, and then forfeited, would there be a different light shed on this situation?  I would rather them be vocal about their dislike of the extension ruling than simply accepting it, and then performing a quiet riot by not playing.  Whether they defied the ruling or simply forfeited while speaking up, it's still the same.  At least you knew how the felt about it the whole time.

.::|N| Noto

[|MP|Buccaneer]

If BTs had said they accepted the ruling, and then forfeited, would there be a different light shed on this situation?

If BTs had said that they accepted the ruling, and tried to make it, fail or otherwise, yes, I think it would shed a different light on it.  But the intent to follow it would have had to be there.

I would rather them be vocal about their dislike of the extension ruling than simply accepting it, and then performing a quiet riot by not playing.  Whether they defied the ruling or simply forfeited while speaking up, it's still the same.  

I don't see it as the same thing.  I don't see it as only two choices either.

They can be as vocal as they want about thier dislike of the decision, and still abide by it.  That's an option you didn't mention.

They could also have accepted the decision, made the effort, yet not made it, which is not the same as the open defiance of saying there is no way they are going to try.

If you don't see the difference Noto, than we see the world in much different lights.

[Aramarth]

For those of you who believe that Typhy and MP5 are getting away with murder, I just wanted to make you aware that I will be meeting with him at our earliest convienience to discuss what probation will mean for him and his clan. After this is done, I will post the details in a new thread.

Aramarth

[BTs_GhostSniper]

For those of you who believe that Typhy and MP5 are getting away with murder, I just wanted to make you aware that I will be meeting with him at our earliest convienience to discuss what probation will mean for him and his clan. After this is done, I will post the details in a new thread.
Aramarth

I seriously hope that by meeting with him, you mean you will be TELLING him what the rules of the probation are, not DISCUSSING it with him as if he will be getting to give you his input.

I am sure that is what you meant, right?

[BFG]

I don't think it is up for discussion what will be happing with MP5 at this time, other than by probation (not prohabition ) we are talking about a 'no shit' policy, they are aware they are treading on very thin ice and that any issue that might involve the MP5 clan will be delt with accordingly...

[Ssickboy]

I wouldn't be surprised if there were more disputes than cb's played in the Battle League.  I'd imagine most disputes are over scheduling, or technical bugs.  That should be understandable.  We're not full time players, cb's are played at any time of day, and we will never have full control over unforeseen glitches.  And most importantly, many of us are very competitive.  

With that in mind, you have to understand that there will always be some sort of dispute.  Our council of representative admins are the closest thing to fair yet flexible.  What's more sound than a variety of opinions, and leaders working together to find the most unbiased and reasonable solution?  The idea was to be democratic and that's what we have to tackle the inevitable.

There may need to be a provision at the very beginning while joining the league that states the interpreted rulings by the BL admins might not always be *perfectly* fair but will always be final in the best interest and fairness to the Damn BL **community.**

There are plenty of ways to settle and even avoid disputes between clans.  This should be encouraged so that we stop wasting everyone else's time.  Example: when it comes to important matches, there may be a foreseen conflict between two mediators... find a more neutral substitute within your clan.  We did this for scheduling matches with Core.  It might not have been needed, but we completely avoided any conditional emotions getting in the way.  And the games were great times (from what I hear), played in a very timely manner.  It was all decided on the battlefield.  If you want to be taken seriously as a clan, a certain amount of reasoning should be expected.  

Ssickboy (not an admin, just an opinion)

I would like to take this time to apologize for actions.  I in no way did I intend this to go as far as it has.  I was only trying to piont out the infractions BTs and MP5 made.  I for one am young at heart but as an adult should not fight over these petty situations.  With this in mind, I will remove myself from posting in the forums.

I'm speaking strictly for myself here, nobody else.  But both clans failed miserably here.  There was a complete and total lack of anything near good sportsmanship from either.  For me, most of the blame is directed at the leaders of both clans 1) not getting along in the first place 2) not willing to actually talk to each other.  They both had quick tempers, both liked to yell more than they listen.  

Both clans absolutely fucked this up in my opinion.  Not one, but both.  Not in the same ways, but they both did.  

When we talked about it, we saw that both clans were in the wrong.  That being the case, we wanted the cb's played, not a ruling, but actually playing the game, you know, how it's meant to be done.  

So we asked, I asked, I practically begged, for the clans to work out a solution.  Eight wouldn't budge.  So it was left to us to force a decision.  And the rest you know.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Couldn't agree with that more Ssickboy.

[BTs_FahQ2]

can we lock this too, my head hurts now and I think everyone has vented enough not to really care.

Thanks and see you in some fun games.

No hard feelings, man beer can make me nice

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I don't think we have to lock it, let it die a natural death.

[Saberian 3000]

OK, fair enough.  Since both clans under the two that were disqualified say that they wouldnt play in their stead I can accept and relate to their disgust at playing in a spot that they were not rightfully meant to be.  I just think it's kinda sad that it has to come down to this.  to be honest I agree with Bucc wholeheartidly on the fact that both clans were in the wrong.   Srry, I know I shouldnt be getting involved with this but this decidion has made a serious problem with the rest of the ladders.  I can understand that people dont feel that it is right that the admins made their decision, but to be honest how can anyone that is not an admin get the full information of the situation.  I guess what I am saying is that this decision might not seem fair to others but because of how this was played out by both clans, they based their decision on the evidence (Which from what I hear there wasnt much to work with in the first place) and the issues that people were causing by flaming the forums, Gameranger, and posts on forums not related to the subject at all.  i dont pretend to have all the awnsers, but I dont agree that what was being done with all the serious flaming was right either.  

As everyone knows I am a hothead when it comes to others attacking my clan and I always will be.  But that dosent mean I dont have a line that I wouldnt cross, and if I have then I apologize for it no matter how much shit it makes me feel like.  It's the only honerable thing to do.  Sometimes I even take the decisions made, up the ass knowing that what I believe is correct but can do nothing about it cause it is the rule that is made.  This has happened to me many many times over the course of BL.  But a ruleing is a ruleing and I am not one to argue with the law that has been laid out.

The one thing that I do know about the admins is that they were all working as best they could with what they had and based their decisions on the actions and words that were said during and before this whole situation that they knew to be as fact.  People might not agree with it, but they are as clueless to what is going on as I am.  These admins that have made the decision have nothing to gain by this so I doubt that they would single out either clan for an attempt at clan extinction.  As a matter of fact we should take a look at the admins and admire how they were able to come to this conclusion knowing that in the real side of things they hardly agree much at all.  But it goes to show that even though their personal opinions differ, their sense of what they all think is right has not diminished.  
Trust me in this, the admins went thru some serious shit trying to come to some type of conclusion.

As for rules, well, rules are a guideline for all to follow.  In the end we must decide what is fair and just and make a correct decision based off of that.   Yes, that means that they cannot be one sided about anything and must try and base their issues off of the facts.  

Well, here is an issue in the end that could have been avoided if one of the two clans actually took the initiative to actually post some type of challenge on the DAMN BL instead of playing this He said, she said game.  If one of them would have taken the initiative to do this to post some type of challenge then they could have used hard physical proof to back their case.  In this issue I dont believe that there really was any other choice but to do what has been done.  And it's not like neither of these clans knew about posting CB's for both of them this season were seen doing it at one time or another to either challenge a clan or flame a little about one.  In either event they all know how the forums work.  Both could have easily solved this issue but both did not.  So as far as I am concerned this issue is at an end.  

As for withdrawing or forfieting as fusion said, well, I wouldnt recommend that one Fusion especially if you were trying to be able to come back next season and play as a team based off of this rule in BL which is the last paragraph of Rule #32 in the Finals section under General Rules of DAMN BL stating:

If your clan withdraws from a final game your clan may be banned from the next season.

Because BTs in this sense refused to play as was stated numerous times thruout this whole ordeal, then I can see where this result would happen.

I remember 2 seasons ago there was that ruleing that I dont see here anymore about if the clans could not play by a certain time then a schedualed time would then be made as a last ditch effort to get the cb done within a reasonable alotted time.  Remember this rule?:

Attention: in the finals you have to play! At the start of each final round each clan posts 4 dates and times at the BL forum where you have time to cb(at least 2hours). Then you agree to one date, time and number of players. If you can't agree an admin will decide date and time

This was taken out of the BL 1.75 back 2 seasons ago.  to my knowledge this is what was applied to this with the twist of the new rule about withdrawing.  Anyway, just another opinion.  Take it for what you will.

:MoD:Saberian

[11.Dr.5150]

I feel that Saberian summer up allot of what this past week has been about. I would like  to appoligize to the admins. For making them spend so much time dealing with our bull shit. I also would like to appoligize to the other clans in the finals for you having to play eachother for a second time. I feel Mp5 and Bts were are fault and that the punishment was just for both clans. I look forward for the good times to come. Let this week rest in peace, and let Mp5, Bts, and DBL get along once again.