ADMIN Ruling on BTs & -MP5- FINAL RULING

[Aramarth]

OK - no disrespect to Core, but didn't we already eliminate them from the finals?  I am not worried about eliminating them again, but how does two forfeits=resurrecting a fairly eliminated clan=fair to c|?  Just asking because this really confuses me.  Of course I and c| would rather win the Title through cbing than by forfeits, but hmmm, couldnt we cb the 5th place clan of the season or something?  I am only asking for clarification cuz I don't get it (not tryin to start any trouble).  Thank you for your time!

In the strict sense of the rules, this situation is treated as if BTs and MP5 were eliminated from the final round, thus core and c| are the surviving clans. I hope that helps.

Again invisibly yours,
Aramarth

[BTs_FahQ2]

I am sorry, but do not quote the strict sense of the rules. Contradiction will occur.

Give the title to c|.  Or I do agree, bring in clan #5.  Do what makes most sense.

[static]

In the strict sense of the rules, this situation is treated as if BTs and MP5 were eliminated from the final round, thus core and c| are the surviving clans. I hope that helps.

Wow now thats the funniest thing I have ever seen!  "In the strict sense of the rules".    If that was followed before, none of this would have been an issue.  

Now lets recap this,

MP5- no show for finals cb TWO times and once in the regular season.  Thats 3 no shows.  Which was a direct violation of the DBL rules............ slap on the hand


BTs - no show after the admins change the rules........... banned.


Flipping off the admins...............priceless

static

[BTs_MrBombastic]

We are a clan.. we stick together on our desisions.. we will take next season off as a clan and just have fun playing together like the (six) clan and a few other non cbing clans do.

Well i wanted to say hiyas!
However, if youre still able to read a post in this hella long thread, then go on--->
I feel beeing punished for what i didnt do. The only game I was playing for the last season was ghr. As far as I know, every cb we played in ghr was alrite and it was quite fun too.
Whenever someone had a problem with us or else thing, i (and some of my team too i saw) used to talk to these guys and make sure that everything was alrite and no rule was hurt.
Well but what happend now - at a damn time when i wasnt even here (i'm european and i use to be here at 1pm est) pisses me off big time yo (to have said something in the maerican way)!.
Why did you have to ban us from all disciplines and why did you have to ban all players? I'm angry about what happend - i would like to break through the wall because of it with my damn head!
I just hope the people which have to be punished for this, are so now - and maybe quite a lot others to, who fucking cares?
I also say shame to these people, who were responsible for this happening. I say shame big time!
Thanks

[Civrock]

hey bomb, the clan has been banned, any member except eight, the leader, are allowed to join another clan and play next season.

[Typhy]

Why not give us a deadline we can actually do?

Instead of a deadline that mp5 could do... after it already missed the DEADLINE part that u guys made so perfectly clear is so important when we made the finals.

MP5 had at leasst 4 hours to complete the second cb on sunday... and all night saturday.... which we were here for...

The cb against zt on sunday lasted about 45 min - 1 hour....

Yet were at fault?

If you guys really wanted this cb to happend then why didnt u make a FAIR ruling as to when we can play the finals... and not a ruling as to when MP5 can make it?

Give me a break, Eight. For most of the day, you guys had plenty of players on. The only reason the CB failed to happen was because of your refusal to "accept" the decision.

[BTs_FahQ2]

funny, when you asked me and wiggy we told you we were working.  Which we truly were.  In addition, how do you know that all of our players play RVS and/or CB in RVS?  Your assumption is based on no merit much like many other assumptions. Prove it!

So no!! no break for you.

[c| Pyroman]

OK - no disrespect to Core, but didn't we already eliminate them from the finals?  I am not worried about eliminating them again, but how does two forfeits=resurrecting a fairly eliminated clan=fair to c|?  Just asking because this really confuses me.  Of course I and c| would rather win the Title through cbing than by forfeits, but hmmm, couldnt we cb the 5th place clan of the season or something?  I am only asking for clarification cuz I don't get it (not tryin to start any trouble).  Thank you for your time!

In the strict sense of the rules, this situation is treated as if BTs and MP5 were eliminated from the final round, thus core and c| are the surviving clans. I hope that helps.

Again invisibly yours,
Aramarth

Actually Ara (or any other admin), wouldn't the strict sense of the rules point out that if BTs and MP5 are both eliminated, then c| is the only surviving clan?  Core has been eliminated as well; that is actually the one thing in all of this that was without doubt "by the rules."  Nothing that happened between BTs and MP5 changes that.  

If either BTs or MP5 eliminated the other team and then forfeited before facing us in the finals would the rules suggest bringing Core back? How is this different?  Either way we have no surviving opponent.

How is the decision to revive the Core clan any more legitimate than taking, say, the 5th place clan... the highest ranked clan that has not been eliminated?  But if that makes sense, then it seems pretty unfair that they get a free pass to the finals.  Perhaps we should take the 5th and 6th place clans to replace the 2nd and 3rd place clans.  But if thats the case, then Core would be the 2nd place clan, and should not have faced us in the first round, so we should proably just start from scratch.  None of these solutions are suggested by the rules any more than is undoing Core's first round defeat, and sticking them in the finals.  The only thing that is true without any further interpretation is that c| is the only surving clan from the 4 finalists.

It seems to me that you may decide to bring back Core to face us simply to have a "final" round, but that would be an admin decision, not a reading of the rules.  You would be asking us to re-eliminate a clan which we have already beaten, leaving our prior CBs and victory meaningless.  That is a decision that seems unfair to the one clan who is surviving by the rules.

I am honestly asking for a logical discussion of this.

[onwig]

its all gone a bit to far.... and yes like usual i havent read all the posts...because reading all the posts is a waste of my time - my life.....

its kind of sad that one clan gets of lighter than the other (seeing as its both clans at fault according to the admins - and if its both clans faults they should have the same ban).... no one cheated, its a game.

[Cutter]

you're right pyro, at least i think you are. with BTs and MP5 out, it seems pretty clear that the c|clan would be the season 7 rvs ladder winner since they have already beaten the core clan in the finals. it should be that way anyway, but who knows what'll happen.

* and although the ruling has already been handed down i'd like to voice my opinion as an outsider that has been watching this situation rather closely. i agree with the admins in the fact that both clans are at fault for not getting the cb's finished on time, even given an extention. however i do not agree with the punishments handed down.

this is just my opinion, but i feel both clans should've been given the same punishment. whether it be probation or a ban for a season. both clans knew the rules, both clans broke the rules and yet only one clan has truely been punished.

and i don't mean to start any shit here, but how is it gonna work next season with typhy (a bl admin) on probation. and harvey's clan is banned from competing. how's that gonna look? that either the admins didn't know the rules or they knew them and clearly broke them. is anything being done to make sure that doesn't happen again?

obviously i'm not involved with either clan or rvs for that matter, but i do participate in the ladders and i am somewhat aware of the rules. i look upon this situation without bias, and it just seems to me that both clans should be given strict probation (with the definate possibility of being banned for one or more seasons) and both admins in those clans should be stripped of their titles for a season. sorry typhy and harv, nothing personal but it seems more fitting and logical than punishing one clan and not the other.

[:MoD:Saberian.cbl]

Srry I am as guest but I am at work reading this now on my off time, so plz understand why I didnt log in as my normal act.  Anyway, I do agree that #5 and 6 should be brought in to play at least one round to go against c| in the finals.  The only reason for that is because again, the core clan has already lost both of their games again c| and to have them play again is kinda fruitless.  Plus let's look at it under a perspective that the #5 and 6 clans were also so close in points wise to the rest of the top 4.  It's not like there was a serious difference like there was in Ghost recon.  Plus it would give the other two teams a chance to win knowing that their whole time devoted to the season hasnt gone for naught.  But it is an admin thing in the end, although I do agree with the above complaints about that, that BOC and MP should be allowed the chance to win.

:MoD:Saberian

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Saberian,

As one of the leaders of the MP, a clan you suggest play off, I think I'd have to say no for us being involved in the finals at all.  I was way too involved in what went on here, and it just wouldn't be right, in my opinion.  

While being completely wrong, a couple people here accused me of having exactly this in mind, and it being my motivation for making the choices I did.  I will not be adding fuel to that fire if I have a choice.

[seth]

you're right pyro, at least i think you are. with BTs and MP5 out, it seems pretty clear that the c|clan would be the season 7 rvs ladder winner since they have already beaten the core clan in the finals. it should be that way anyway, but who knows what'll happen.

i do agree with the fact that Collective should be declared a winner. They're in the 3rd, defeated the 4th and since the 1st and 2nd are out, why the hell should they not win the season ? But as Cutter pointed out, who knows what will happened next, since new rules seem to appear from time to time.

[c| Pyroman]

you're right pyro, at least i think you are. with BTs and MP5 out, it seems pretty clear that the c|clan would be the season 7 rvs ladder winner since they have already beaten the core clan in the finals. it should be that way anyway, but who knows what'll happen.

i do agree with the fact that Collective should be declared a winner. They're in the 3rd, defeated the 4th and since the 1st and 2nd are out, why the hell should they not win the season ? But as Cutter pointed out, who knows what will happened next, since new rules seem to appear from time to time.

Just for the record Bobby, c| was the 1st place clan, and defeated the 4th pace clan, Core.   The 2nd and 3rd place clans have been disqualified.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Why not give us a deadline we can actually do?

Is this a joke?

If you guys really wanted this cb to happend then why didnt u make a FAIR ruling as to when we can play the finals... and not a ruling as to when MP5 can make it?

Actually, MP5 complained about the time too, and would have been playing short handed.  But, you keep ignoring that because it doesn't fit in with your bitching Eight.

Also, you were given the chance to schedule it yourself.  You kept refusing.  

And, yes, as it's been pointed out quite a few times now, you had people online, active, with RvS that could have CB'd both nights, though you refused.

So, this is a joke.  It wasn't that you couldn't make it, since you had people there, it's that you refused to make it.

[onwig]

we can go round in circles all day long and keep saying the same things.... will an admin answer my question from before... you said both clans were at fault... so why hasnt the same punishment been handed out?

this is how i see it.... we were here all day sunday ready, they dont turn up

so ok they get an extension, we dont think its fair... rules etc etc... so then you expect everyone to be happy with this, so you say the following night after people are still pretty pissed at the choice... why didnt you say the following weekend when everyone had cooled down...... so anyway back onto the thing, so BTs dont do the cb  which is the same as what MP5 didnt do on sunday... but BTs ends up worse than MP5..... it seems pretty straightfoward to me... both clans should have the same punishment. Why is this not the case?

if a rule can be broken by one clan, and get away with it lightly why should the other get a harsher punishment? because you guys didnt like it? i am not trying to flame... I am just trying to understand the diff punishments between the two

[BTs_eight]

See bucc i think thats where you made your ruling and thats where i think your wrong...

Bucc's post:
And, yes, as it's been pointed out quite a few times now, you had people online, active, with RvS that could have CB'd both nights, though you refused.


WE NEVER REFUSED TO CB THIS WEEKEND. MP5 DID!

Thats what you keep trying to throw at us... HOW DID WE REFUSE WHEN MP5 closed the room down? How did we refuse when the admins made their ruling and i even told typhy we would play his way...

THAT MY FRIEND IS WHAT YOU DONT UNDERSTAND. WE NEVER REFUSED... only to the extention...

[alaric]

I have stayed away from this topic so far because it has not involved me or my clan in any direct way, so I felt it would be out of place for me to comment. However, there seems to be some confusion about the punishments handed down. Though I am not privy to the admin deliberations on this subject, I think I have a pretty good idea of what happened.

I think the reason for the difference in punishments is as follows:

MP5 and BTs were both disqualified from the finals because of rules violations. The difference between the two is in the manner in which the violation occured.

MP5 seems to have been disqualified for simple violation, roughly equivalent to a misdemeanor I would guess. It is also worthy of note that MP5 has also been courteous when dealing with the admins as far as I can tell.

BTs was also disqualified for a rules violation, however, their violation seems to have been beyond a simple violation. I would characterize it as flagrant and abusive personally, particularly on the part of the BTs clan leader. The rough equivalent of this offense I suppose could be considered a felony. So, in addition to the disqualification BTs was punished further, not for a rules violation, but for the reproachful and repugnant manner in which it dealt with the admins.

Which is completely understandable on the part of the admins, can anyone think of any ref or umpire who would put up with what the admins have these past few days? I can't. And as an umpire myself, I can tell you that I would have not only ejected many of the actors in this drama, I would have also sought suspensions and or bannings from the league. It's ok to disagree with an admin/umpire, it is NOT ok to disrespect or attack them in the way that the BL admins have been attacked these past few days.

Anyway, in summary, I think that BTs has only themselves to blame for their banning from season 8. I am certain that if BTs had treated the admins with the respect and courtesy they deserved that their punishment would be exactly the same as MP5s.

On a slightly different subject, I agree with Bucc about MP staying out of the finals. I wouldn't feel right about playing in this season's finals if we didn't earn it. It's unfortunate that things had to turn out this way. It would have been much better if competition and skill had decided the outcome of this season's finals instead of Battle League Lawyering, but hopefully we can all learn from this season's mistakes and make Season VIII the best yet.

[onwig]

alaric... thx for the answer and I agree with some of it, but the other point is.. and i think most people might have done the same thing. A clan went against the rules, a clan got pissed off by a alteration of that rule.... then while stile pissed at this decision the clan doesnt play the following night... why wasnt the cb delayed a bit longer.... and i know its far fetched this... . you brake your leg in a game of some sort, you dont go back the next day to play it again, let time pass and it gets better. We are all humans apart from a few people on GR... people were angry and pissed off. I personally think if the cb was delayed longer, rather than the following night, things wouldnt have got so bad.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

we can go round in circles all day long and keep saying the same things.... will an admin answer my question from before... you said both clans were at fault... so why hasnt the same punishment been handed out?

Onwig, probably because it's been answered more than once, before you asked, and you didn't bother reading it.

But here it is again.

Both clans are being punished for what happened.  Both clans are out of the finals.  

The reason MP5 is on probation next season while BTs is banned is because MP5 accepted the decision of the Admins, while BTs refused.  BTs was warned what refusal would probably mean, so they weren't blind to it.

Yes, punishment is meant to teach a lesson, if not to you, than to others.  

this is how i see it.... we were here all day sunday ready, they dont turn up

Yep, I know that's how you see it.  I've heard that so very often now.  But, I must say, that's not how I, and obviously others, see it.  And we've discussed this for hours with members from your clan Onwig, so repeating it isn't going to do any good.

so ok they get an extension, we dont think its fair...

Again, we don't see it as "they get an extension".  I know you haven't read, but you should.  MP5 complained about the deadline too, in that they would have to play short handed.  So is making them play short handed really just giving in to them?  But, since neither side could agree, we had to set something, and so we did.  It wasn't meant to be in either clans advantage.

And just for the record, I don't think it's fair on the Admins that two clans couldn't work it out amongst themselves either.  But hell, nobody seems to care a lot about that.  Remember, we tried very very hard to get the clans to work it out, to talk to each other.  It's not like BTs put forth any effort in that regard.

if a rule can be broken by one clan, and get away with it lightly why should the other get a harsher punishment? because you guys didnt like it? i am not trying to flame... I am just trying to understand the diff punishments between the two

Because there are two different issues, and two different punishments here Onwig.

Both clans were being punished equally for the fact that they couldn't manage to CB.  BTs got the additional punishment because they refused to accept the decision.  It's not that BTs challenged the decision, I actually told you guys the right way to do it (and was ignored).  It's that we were told flat out that you guys wouldn't CB, that we were wrong and you won.  It was flagrant.  When you guys said the time didn't work out for you, we asked you to set one, but BTs refused to do that, saying you didn't have to, you had already won.  

And since some Admins watched, while BTs had enough members active to CB, but refused to, it was just that much more clear that it wasn't a matter of cannot, it was will not.