Meeting-point for Finalists

[.::|N| DIESEL]

LOL fridge!!@

That is what we have been saying all along.

WOOT!

[*DAMN Hazard]

All flaming posts from this point on will be deleted in this thread. Use this thread for scheduling, not for flaming.

[Noto]

But... But... I really do not think anyone is going to use this thread for scheduling.  Do you?  Come on Haz, think about it.  I know you're only 15 or so, but you're a smart guy.  There are 6 pages of much needed out pouring of agression.  People are just getting things off their chest.  Personally, I would let this stay a Flame post and let it simmer away.  If you just delete the agressions of people who need an outlet, they will only find another way to do so, and possibly in another thread.

If there needs to be a thread about finals scheduling for any future rounds, I'm sure those clans will post a new thread.  I highly doubt they will find any use of the one here.  Trust me Haz, people need this stuff.

 

.::|N| Noto

[*DAMN Hazard]

Keep the flaming to a minimum while at the same time relate it to the thread.

Love,

Hazard

[crypt]

So, ! refused to play on a Network server while Network agreed to playing on the ! server, but then went to the DAMN server which also is euro? Thats bs if true. The euros need to get the same lag we americans get on their servers when playing.

[Acri]

Apologies to the N clan. Of course I don't mean the whole clan.

Noto, yes, I do kind of agree in america-bashing. Why? This is why:

This is a European ladder. It is run by europeans. The way I see it, americans are more than welcome to play, but I don't really like that Europeans get treated like a minority. The way it seems in this forum, european clans are trouble. Mauti has done his best to make this work. He is not ignoring americans nor is it intentionally optimized for europeans. Also Noto, my "1oo%" comment was to flies, and not to you. Don't try to start a flame war thx. I think you were out of line. That is my opinion and nothing I will discuss further in a forum. Contact me in GR if you must.

[Da? Swiftkill]

Believe it or not, the disputes don't find you flies, you've earned this title, bravo! bravo! I love it, i absolutely love it, here we have Flies who suggests to my clan mates to kick me out of SL~ because I will do more harm than good to the clan through my highly disreputable character, being grilled for his manipulative, narrow minded character and general annoyance.  

w00t ME TOO FRIDGE  

[Noto]

Noto, yes, I do kind of agree in america-bashing. Why? This is why:

This is a European ladder. It is run by europeans. The way I see it, americans are more than welcome to play, but I don't really like that Europeans get treated like a minority. The way it seems in this forum, european clans are trouble. Mauti has done his best to make this work. He is not ignoring americans nor is it intentionally optimized for europeans.

Wow... In regards to all of the U.S. and North American Players out there, this completely sums up what this ladder is all about.  Acri, I do not know if you realize this, but the majority of the players are U.S.  The majority of the higher ranked clans are U.S.  The U.S. and Canadian teams help this Battle League to thrive.  Imagine if all of the North American players were to leave.  Where would the *DAMN Battle League be?  Would it still be here, or would it fold since the majority of it's players have left.

Don't be so quick to speak for *DAMN or the Battle League.  If you want the North Americans to leave, you might just get that.

.::|N| Noto

[Civrock]

okay then. the thread is open again. i just wanted to prevent more of this argueing and flaming.
why can?t you just play your games? every finals round has one weekend day, if u have problems to play in week.
dont?s start a US vs EUR discussion now plz, because the rules are not ignoring u.s. clans nor are intentionally made for euro clans.
the subject of this thread is to schedule the cbs between the clans participating in the finals.
like i said, there is one weekend day in every round of finals, use this day if u have problems with the default time in week.
the final cb N vs Core has been played and there should be no more discussions about that...
like mauti said, there will be improved finals next season with every round on a weekend. no more problems with work/school.

no more flaming plz. stay on topic!


z][t-Civic


p.s.: nobody wants the north americans to leave noto.

[| ! | Dutchman]

So, ! refused to play on a Network server while Network agreed to playing on the ! server, but then went to the DAMN server which also is euro? Thats bs if true. The euros need to get the same lag we americans get on their servers when playing.

Ok, WHO started this rumor?

We started on Flies host, which was ok by them. After 4 games we went to aramath's host which was fine by us (their server had a 200 ping, but hey its west coast, you see us whine?). Then after 4 games we went back to Flies host. At that moment N was behind 5-2-1.
And you know what happened Crypt? Now, they refused it! The first time they played it, now they refused it.

So we suggested an other euro server (it was our turn to host remember?), the dedicated DAMN server. It's the server announced in another thread to be used by finalists. A neutral server. They said it was even worse. And all of a sudden they picked Flies server again.
Ask Dr. NO...he was there to help us all out with the dedicated server.
It was a fair cb, we switched host each 4 games.

So whoever it is, don't spread fucking lies to make us look bad. Take your loss and stop the fucking whining.

I have tried my best to be nice to certain people, but this all has turned into an anti-Flies, anti Core, anti-Mauti, anti-DAMN BattleLeague and anti-Euro thread. That's making me sick.

At least show some respect for Mauti, Elan and the rest who are keeping this League running. Got some constructive comments? Go ahead, they DO listen.
If you keep whining, leave the League and try to start your own li'l one.
Let's see how YOU can deal with all the comments, whining and bitching. You wouldn't last one lousy season.

Dutchman out.

[.::|N| VeNoM]

Well.....someone has there panties in a bundle....
This thread wasnt made to be a ANTI anyone Dutch, from reading all the posts and whatnot, it was made more for the fact of extending the finals, although some people had some things they felt needed to be expressed and used this certian thread to do so.

Basically it goes down like this.......As show within the last couple of posts, There are people that dont like euro servers or people for that matter, as well as people that arent happy with American servers and/or people. With what is hopefully gonna happen next season, this situation will be resolved and all the school girl fighting can come to an end....
                                                  Venom, out

[Acri]

Noto, read my posts more thoroughly before you comment. I did never express any wish to have americans out of the ladder nor did I try to speak for *DAMN. It seems to me you are very determined to start a fight here, so why don't you contact me in GameRanger? I stand firm on my point that I don't like Europeans being thought upon as trouble. Yes, the majority is american, but does that mean we Europeans don't have the right to be in the finals? Terms like "fucking Euro-lag" is not really the nicest way to embrace your opponents, now is it? I will once again point out that I never expressed any wish for the americans to leave the ladder, but I think it is sad that the american BTL ladder wasn't more popular. If it had been, perhaps the americans would be treated better? I can agree that the time zone rules are in fact a bit unfair, but the way I see it, the vast majority of players are well under 18 years old, meaning they have a better shot at playing the game at 3 PM than 3 AM. Besides, Mauti says he has already got a solution for next season. The default times are the same, still, but during weekends. What more can you ask?
I await your flaming with great anticipation Noto. I wonder what I am gonna be... "gay", "asshole"? I can hardly wait.

                                                                  Cheers, Acri

[*DAMN Mauti]

Whoa I can't believe what I have to read, especially what few N players wrote.

I won't answer hate, unreasonend racism, and anger with the same, I just repost the facts that have lead to this, from the distance viewed, small issue.

N was unable to play on a sunday where nobody would have time troubles but somehow you couldn't play and because you failed to play everyone should wait for you!? Because you can't play by the rules while all others can!? That's simply not how it works. Further the times are made to be fair for everyone. Playing at 11:30pm CET isn't that fun while you could play at 2:30pm PST on a sunday afternoon.

Diesel, Noto and everyone else that are posting plain wrong and stupid things: I don't earn money with N playing in the league contrary it only cost me nerves that you are part of the *DAMN Battle League and if you really think the way you are posting I really recommend and wish me that N leaves this league. Search another league where you can make others responsible for your own faults. Noto when the league started in July 2000 we were 7 clans - 2 european and 5 US clans and it was fun. It was small but fun and if the only thing you can do is to complain it's simply not the right place for you. Further if you really think that I and the BL are discriminating US clans I can't help you anymore and it only shows you as racists. On a side note the world is larger than US borders go.

Well if you didn't mean the posts the way you wrote them you are welcome to participate in season 6 otherwise please leave.

Mauti

[crypt]

So, ! refused to play on a Network server while Network agreed to playing on the ! server, but then went to the DAMN server which also is euro? Thats bs if true. The euros need to get the same lag we americans get on their servers when playing.

Ok, WHO started this rumor?

We started on Flies host, which was ok by them. After 4 games we went to aramath's host which was fine by us (their server had a 200 ping, but hey its west coast, you see us whine?). Then after 4 games we went back to Flies host. At that moment N was behind 5-2-1.
And you know what happened Crypt? Now, they refused it! The first time they played it, now they refused it.

So we suggested an other euro server (it was our turn to host remember?), the dedicated DAMN server. It's the server announced in another thread to be used by finalists. A neutral server. They said it was even worse. And all of a sudden they picked Flies server again.
Ask Dr. NO...he was there to help us all out with the dedicated server.
It was a fair cb, we switched host each 4 games.

So whoever it is, don't spread fucking lies to make us look bad. Take your loss and stop the fucking whining.

I have tried my best to be nice to certain people, but this all has turned into an anti-Flies, anti Core, anti-Mauti, anti-DAMN BattleLeague and anti-Euro thread. That's making me sick.

At least show some respect for Mauti, Elan and the rest who are keeping this League running. Got some constructive comments? Go ahead, they DO listen.
If you keep whining, leave the League and try to start your own li'l one.
Let's see how YOU can deal with all the comments, whining and bitching. You wouldn't last one lousy season.

Dutchman out.

Oh, my bad, I thought I saw a post where it said both hosts for the game were euro, truly sorry.

[Aramarth]

Hey dutch, who told you I was west coast?  I'm in Virginia, which is pretty close to Washington DC, and quite east coast.

I regret how all this has turned out.  Sadly it doesn't matter that I'm not part of the problem, I still have to be here for the ride.  I just hope that I don't see either side getting righteous about this.  Everyone has said a bunch of crap, and the most recent posts arent getting any better.

Mauti is no angel.  I've had well-written arguements thrown back in my face as if they weren't read by this guy.  He listens?  Only in my dreams.  Halfway through this issue he shot down the plea for an extension and created a situation in which the cb was set to be an ugly display of disrespect before it began.  His last post is an open flame of his own.

A good deal of posts in here were just a bunch of smack, but since the cb the Ns in question have meant ever word of it.  This has gone beyond

I really recommend and wish me that N leaves this league

so far that it truly cannot ever heal.  They wouldn't play in this league again if they were paid to do so.

So heres the point.  The vocal Ns feel they were totally slighted by the rules and rulings of the mods in this battle league.  The mods think they have only done their best.  What do these two things mean?

Mauti, there isnt any racism here, thats the wrong term. What would you have said if you had a rule saying you had to cb at 1430 waved in your face endlessly? I mean seriously:

Bla bla bla bla complain complain complain complain...

Hows that help? Maybe made you feel better..
Crypt and others (name specified only because its in recent memory), the lack of the facts in posts just made the issue hotter.
Civic and mods in general, repeating an unpopular ruling that mauti made just turned you into a guy rubbing dirt in a wound.  Yes, we know that the rule is 1430 west coast time!  The point of the posts was explaining the rules' failure, not disputing its existance!  Yeah repeat it a few more times for the benefit of angering everyone. Sure made you feel good to shout the rules right?
Flies, you tried to get a cb time, you thought you were doing your part, but by publicly bashing the Ns as if they didn't try caused real resentment. You probably enjoyed it.
Billy, I know this was frustrating, but the caps lock and hot-under-the-collar is a large part of the problem. You came away feeling great after your posts.
Noto, you got a huge kick out of your new ESD motto, and thats just dandy for you, but in the realm of a forum meant to solve the problem, you changed the topic from solution to flamewar.  You knew it wasnt nice in the back of your mind, but it felt good to do it anyway.

I could go on.  But I won't, because I'm trying to avoid the things I'm posting about.  Everyone could learn a thing or two from deciding against what feels good, in favor of what is civilized.

Now I'm sure to be shouted at by everyone involved, and probably kicked out of my clan.  But this time, this single post in a thread of lies and hatred, is the right thing to do- so I dont care what happens now.  I have a grim sense of purpose, but I sure don't feel good.

[Noto]

Mauti -

First off, I would like to say that I have defended the *DAMN BL on many occasions.  I have helped to heal the "wounds" between clans.  I have helped with the rules by challenging them, following them strictly, and rewriting them.  I have helped to promote new clans when others were dying off.  I have given suggestion and arguement for how to improve this league, while all the time congratulating it.  I have even defended you at times when people looked for someone to blame.  Your callous post towards Diesel and myself shows the inequities that this league seemingly represents.  Acri seemed to sum it up best.  As much as non-Eruopean players are welcomed (mostly because they are needed for the league to survive), they are also misrepresented and underrepresented in a league that is more or less, European.  Here are some of my thoughts on what you have recently said.

Whoa I can't believe what I have to read, especially what few N players wrote.

I won't answer hate, unreasonend racism, and anger with the same, I just repost the facts that have lead to this, from the distance viewed, small issue.

I'm sure the use of the word racism is merely a translation issue.  I know I am not a racist, nor are the members of The .::|N|etwork.  Have words been said that point towards an anti-Euro persuasion? Yes, they have.  How were they stated though?  They were stated in the manner that the time frame rules that were laid out were not fair to non-European clans.  We had nothing against | ! | or any other European clan until an anti-American feeling was erupting.  We were challenging an unfair rule.  Funny how many of the threads that have appeared in this battle league have revolved around unfair rules, unfair rulings, indecisive rulings, and poorly written, ambiguous rules.

N was unable to play on a sunday where nobody would have time troubles but somehow you couldn't play and because you failed to play everyone should wait for you!? Because you can't play by the rules while all others can!? That's simply not how it works. Further the times are made to be fair for everyone. Playing at 11:30pm CET isn't that fun while you could play at 2:30pm PST on a sunday afternoon.

Do you know why we were not able to play on Sunday?  It was because the script that was written for this league had The .::|N|etwork going against The Co||ective, not against the Core.  We tried to contact members, but were unsuccessful.  Our members did come online in time for the 5:30pm EST start time, even though they were unaware of who our new opponents were.  Also, The .::|N|etwork has played by every rule that has been written, whether it was a clear rule or a porrly worded rule.  Ask any clan we have ever gone against.  We stick to the rules like Flies on shit. (that was a pun... )

Diesel, Noto and everyone else that are posting plain wrong and stupid things: I don't earn money with N playing in the league contrary it only cost me nerves that you are part of the *DAMN Battle League and if you really think the way you are posting I really recommend and wish me that N leaves this league.

Why do you think we are posting the things that we post, Mauti?  Why do you think members from other clans have also posted in our defense?  Why do you think some of your own moderators have posted in our defense?  Perhaps we did not approach this issue in the most proper way, but we shouldn't be chastized for challenging a rule.  Rules were written by people, and they can be changed by people.  If The .::|N|etwork were to leave this league, it would be because of issues that were not only ignored, but more for issues that were discussed, and then blatantly disragarded.

Search another league where you can make others responsible for your own faults.

The entire time The .::|N|etwork has been a aprt of this league, we have strived to play by the league's rules.  It was only when there was a rule that needed to be challenged did we point out the faults of others.  I fault the writing of the rules, and its poor coincidence with the start of finals, not the league as a whole.

Noto when the league started in July 2000 we were 7 clans - 2 european and 5 US clans and it was fun. It was small but fun and if the only thing you can do is to complain it's simply not the right place for you.

People of this world are naturally complainers.  We generally try to improve on what we build and create by looking inwards, and then trying to find a better way of doing it.  When you are in life, you will find yourself criticizing more than complimenting at times.  We usually fail to improve by giving ourselves a pat on the back.  I felt as a member of this league, it is my duty, and my right, to point out where improvements can be made.  I think that every member should have this freedom.  I have always pointed what i do not like, AND what I do like when it has come to the BL.  I publicly applauded *DAMN's new scoring system and website scripting and it's addition of two capable moderators; Civic & Dr. NO.

Further if you really think that I and the BL are discriminating US clans I can't help you anymore and it only shows you as racists.

I do not feel that you, or the BL, are discriminating against anyone.  I do feel that the rules in regards to time frames of playing in the finals have drastically given favor to European clans.  Only after quite a bit of American bashing did I feel that this league was representing something more than ignorance, but prejudice.

On a side note the world is larger than US borders go.

I still thank God to this day that [OZ] was not in finals.  I can only imagine the what rules would have been created there.  Don't forget Mauti, you and your moderators only represent Europe and North America.  Do not lecture to me about the borders of the world.  As far as I'm concerned, your league misrepresents anyone outside of Europe and North America completely.

Well if you didn't mean the posts the way you wrote them you are welcome to participate in season 6 otherwise please leave.

I mean everything I post, with the knowledge that I have had at the time of posting.  I you are so greatly offended by The .::|N|etwork and feel that we are disturbing this league and the way it is being run, then do not ask us to leave.  Rather, publicly ban us from your league.  It is all we ask if you choose to make such a decision.

.::|N| Noto

[*DAMN Hazard]

I think you are all overreacting. It started by N being pissed off by the BL being falsely represented by people posting things like "europeans run this ladder, but your welcome to play." Who are they to talk for the people that run the ladder? That was the spark to this conflict. Majority of the BL mods are North Americans, not to mention that every member of this BL had a say in the forming of the rules of this season. Were European opinions taken more seriously in the discussion? Hell no. Everyone's idea's were respected(for the most part) and we formed the rules. You can look at us as  tyrants, or you can look at us as your best shot at change and we both know the best way to convince someone of something is not to flame the hell out of them. Most of the people flaming here are grown men. Act like it! Why start another league when we have one established here? Why put gamer vs. gamer? We can accomplish something here. We can progress if everyone is willing to chill out and discuss their views in a respectful way.

Hazard  

[Noto]

Hazard -

You are misinformed on a few issues.  Also, there was more to this issue than posts made public here.

I think you are all overreacting. It started by N being pissed off by the BL being falsely represented by people posting things like "europeans run this ladder, but your welcome to play."... ...That was the spark to this conflict.

Actually, this all started off because of an unfair rule.  The rule that you claim helped to create.  The .::|N|etwork never posted that Europeans run this ladder.  That was Acri, which is a Euro.  He said this was a Euro league that was run by Euros, and that Americans are welcome to play on it.  You have been misinformed, or have misread previous posts.

Majority of the BL mods are North Americans, not to mention that every member of this BL had a say in the forming of the rules of this season.

Hazard = 15 yrs old = Does not play in an active clan, nor plays GhR actively.
Infection = 15 yrs old = Does not play in an active clan, nor plays GhR actively.
VooDoo = Mostly only respected by his own clan members.  Many active GhR players rarely listen to him, let alone take what he says as an "Admin" ruling.
Dr. NO = A very fair and impartial Admin in my eyes.  I do not believe he has been an admin very long though.

Now, out of those 4 admins, are you telling me all had a say in the rules?  Haz, the majority of the rules have been the same for quite a few seasons.  Very little was added or changed for Season 5.

Why start another league when we have one established here?

The clans and gamers who are currently discussing a new league are doing for a reason.  The rate in which *DAMN deals with situations, or changes at all, is as slow as molasses at Christmas.  A new North American based league is being discussed at the .::|N|etwork forums.  The new league is not being hosted by The .::|N|etwork, nor is the new league an anti-*DAMN or anti-euro league.  The new league is also not a replacement for the *DAMN league.  Players are welcome to play on both, although many of the clans that are involved with the new league are planning on boycotting *DAMN.  The new league welcomes all players, but it gives more choices, and also a voice to the players who play.  If anyone wants to be a part of this new league, go to the discussion and post your views of what you would like to see from a gaming league.

We can accomplish something here. We can progress if everyone is willing to chill out and discuss their views in a respectful way.

We cannot accomplish something here, Hazard.  The only thing that is accomplished is what the admins or Mauti say can be added or changed.  You could have 100+ players here ask for a change, and it is still up to the admins and Mauti.  Hazard, the people have no voice.  The new league is simply going to offer the means for clans to finally have a voice in how their league is run.

.::|N| Noto

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I've stayed pretty clear of this thread so far, but I think I need to speak up now.  Things are going too far.

Ok, we have a problem.  The problem is, scheduling CB's between Clans in vastly different time zones.

Now, everyone shut up and read, because that was the failure that led up to all the anger here.  Nobody was listening to each other.

Face it, There is up to a 14 hour time difference just between Europe and the USA.  Don't forget those gamers out there in the Pacific.  Add to that the players from Australia, Japan and Hong Kong.  

Now, Mauti was just trying to solve a problem, and the guys from Network were just trying to solve a problem that caused.  Then things flared.

So, get over it and look to the future.  The problem still exists.  Let's solve it for next time, shall we?

Obviously 2:30pm is too early for many.  School and work do come before the battle league.  And I also agree that starting CB's after midnight sucks too.  So, what does that leave us?  Weekends.

Yes it draws it out a little, but if we are going to do a playoff, it's only fair to play them on the weekends if you must schedule them.  You have all day Saturday and Sunday to play best of 3 CB's.  You have all week to schedule it.   Morning or afternoon for the americas, late afternoon or evening for the euros.  Roll it back a few more hours if it's against asia/oz.

Simple.

Mistakes were made, words were said, but in the end, just solve the problem.  Keep it simple.

[elite]

Amen to that Bucc.