Trying to stop the truth only proves my point.

[*DAMN Mauti]

The chairman is a step in the right direction, but it doesn't go far enough. And the fundamental problem of it being YOUR league remains. For a league to have real lasting power it must be owned by the public. Having one person own it gives it the achilles heel of a single point of failure.

I think that's the problem where the misunderstandings start:
on one side you accuse me that I'm too less active. I know that I'm less active due university so I tried to give the complete power to the admins step by step. So the league doesn't really need me and I can play the role of an observer.
 
In season VII there was the problem that the admins had all the equal rights, and some did whatt they wanted, ignoring guidelines etc, this is where Bucc asked me for help. I wasn't there, so he retired because he didn't see a future, if there won't be someone who has the power to punish such admins and mods. He suggested me to add a chairman, that plays the role of an independent judge, who controls the admins and also has the function to improve teamwork among the admins. Season VIII started and I added the chairman alongside with some old and new admins. Bucc was pissed off that I still let some of the old admins in their position, because he didn't understand my intention. My thoughts were if someone has already made a fault, and you speak with him about it, he won't do it again and when, he will be out, because he already had his second chance. The result of the last season gave me right. Noto became a good teamplayer and worked hard and Civic isn't a bad admin only because he isn't a yessayer. I always try to have admins with different views aboard, so you can cover most pro and con if you decide something new.

Alaric, so you want the league to be owned by the public on the other hand you critisize that nothing is going on. Sorry in a democracy you almost can only make small steps forward except you have an absolute majority. That's democracy. This season we made a lot of decisions and only because not all of your votes have passed, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. You can say it didn't go you(in your opinion) far enough but that has nothing to do with power of the public because you, the admins, had the power.

To sum up: you are saying that you want both the power for the public, but also the power so that everyone can decide everything alone.

Alaric, maybe I'm wrong but I think what you criticise is not the things you are really posting here, because if you are honest most of your points weren't true this season, I was there when you needed me and otherwise you(admins) decided the things on your own.

I think it's more the fact that you are, first, a little bit disappointed, that all the great ideas you had, couldn't be realised and second, that what you miss is the FUN. Correct me if I'm wrong. You are also as fed up as I'm with all these complainers, with the cb issues(thank goodness we almost had none this season), and the seriousness that's going on in cbs, where is hardly room for fun next to the "how many points will I lose/win"  - thinking, "my A team isn't here only my B team, so we can't play because we lose to much points" - excuses. I think that are the real issues we have to address.

In the present, I'm not talking about the past, because we have learned from it, and always improved from season to season, the rules are finally at a stage where we don't have to deal with them anymore, everyone understands them as we meant them to be(thanks to Noto), the admins decided a bunch of new things this season, the structure works, the simple FFA ladder is huge FUN, but it's also obvious that the other ladders aren't as fun as they are supposed to be.

As we do it always from season to season since 4(!) years now, we try to improve and I have already a lot of new ideas where we can solve this fundamental issue of "thinking" a lot of players have nowadays, and I really hope the ideas I have can change the attitude how everyone plays a cb. The goal would be, like the FFA ladder has achieved, you play a cb instead of normal games.

Try your luck with the league you are working on with Eight, Alaric, maybe then you will also be able to understand that in a true democracy you have different opinions  and that you can't have the absolute power in your hand at the same time and call it a democracy. I'll continue to work and improve this league because it is far away from dead.

Regards,

Mauti

[*DAMN Elandrion]

well spoken, lion

[alaric]

Alaric, so you want the league to be owned by the public on the other hand you critisize that nothing is going on. Sorry in a democracy you almost can only make small steps forward except you have an absolute majority. That's democracy. This season we made a lot of decisions and only because not all of your votes have passed, that doesn't mean it doesn't work. You can say it didn't go you(in your opinion) far enough but that has nothing to do with power of the public because you, the admins, had the power.

To sum up: you are saying that you want both the power for the public, but also the power so that everyone can decide everything alone.

I think you misunderstand what I meant. What I meant was to say that tying the league to the name of one clan or one person limits it's life span automatically. That's all I meant by "owned by the public". There still needs to be a strict hierarchy of power that actually governs the league, but the league's name cannot exist in the ownership of one person/clan. That allows people to come and go and not worry about what is being done in their name after they leave.

Alaric, maybe I'm wrong but I think what you criticise is not the things you are really posting here, because if you are honest most of your points weren't true this season, I was there when you needed me and otherwise you(admins) decided the things on your own.

I think it's more the fact that you are, first, a little bit disappointed, that all the great ideas you had, couldn't be realised and second, that what you miss is the FUN. Correct me if I'm wrong. You are also as fed up as I'm with all these complainers, with the cb issues(thank goodness we almost had none this season), and the seriousness that's going on in cbs, where is hardly room for fun next to the "how many points will I lose/win"  - thinking, "my A team isn't here only my B team, so we can't play because we lose to much points" - excuses. I think that are the real issues we have to address.

You're goddamn right I'm disappointed. Running a league doesn't have to be this hard. You shouldn't have to fight personalties every day of the week just to get shit done. You shouldn't have to put up with the bitching and complaining of the noobs who want to win at the cost of fun.

Solutions to these problems have already been presented. The majority of admins were in favor of these changes. Why weren't they enacted? Political Bullshit. Which is exactly all this league is today: Political Bullshit. And I, for one, am sick of it and I don't see it changing anytime soon.

And again, if you hadn't deleted it, all that would be there in the record. So spare me the psychoanalytic bullshit, you haven't "figured me out" you're just repeating what I said in the thread you destroyed.

Try your luck with the league you are working on with Eight, Alaric, maybe then you will also be able to understand that in a true democracy you have different opinions  and that you can't have the absolute power in your hand at the same time and call it a democracy. I'll continue to work and improve this league because it is far away from dead.

OK, now I realize it's hard, but please TRY to fucking listen this time. I AM NOT WORKING WITH EIGHT ON A NEW LEAGUE. I haven't even talked to him THIS YEAR.

Again, you're just proving my point that it's all politics. It's all about who's idea it is and not the idea itself.

Now, you can take this league and shove it, you ignorant asshole. I've tried my best to help you, but you seem bent on destroying yourself. Fuck you Mauti, you've ruined the best thing that ever happened to mac gaming.

[Civrock]

Solutions to these problems have already been presented. The majority of admins were in favor of these changes. Why weren't they enacted?

completely wrong. there was never a poll which hasn't been enacted although it had a majority. the polls u're talking about did NOT have a majority.

And again, if you hadn't deleted it, all that would be there in the record. So spare me the psychoanalytic bullshit, you haven't "figured me out" you're just repeating what I said in the thread you destroyed.

don't even try that, Alaric... Mauti is not at all repeating. the thread does still exist and can be made visible if necessary to prove that u're wrong.[/color]

[*DAMN Mauti]

For the record: Alaric got a 48hour ban for spamming all forum parts. Only his reply that was posted in the right thread wasn't removed.

Alaric,

it's not about politics, it's about fun tactical games and clanbattles. Alright, now I understand what you wanted to say me with owned by the public.

Unfortunaly it seems that my post was so bad, mad, sad that you have to attack me personal, further as Civic has already pointed out few things you are saying aren't entirely true, so I won't respond to them.

You are always talking about, that you tried to save the league - and that's probably the reason why you try to damage it now!? We have never refused to talk, you had the chance as admin to bring in many points and even to get them written down in the rules, like many other admins brought up votes etc...

It was you who retired and as a consequence gave up the possibility to change something.

'Nuff said.

Good night,

Mauti

[BTs_GhostSniper]

For the record: Alaric got a 48hour ban for spamming all forum parts. Only his reply that was posted in the right thread wasn't removed.

lol....I think he made it pretty clear in his post that he wasn't going to be coming back anyway.[/size]

[Saberian 3000]

Well, there are a few issues that need to be resolved, that's for sure.  Although to be honest these are things that should be voted on with the community and not left up to a few biased people to make the decisions for us.  Instead, they should be trying to convince all of us to agree to their side of the issues and we should vote on it in the end.  

As for Mauti making this his own league, well, to be honest it is his league.  He took the initiative to make it, and he deserves the credit for it.  I think the problem with this is that since everyone sees DAMN on it, they assume that it is all Mauti, and I can see where he has made some differences with trying to put the running of the league in the court of the players.  Although it seems that these people that are here to represent us are in fact having a little too much power in that sense.  My concern is that I was under that assumption that the admins for the league were here to enforce the rules that we must play by and to vote on issues that were some concern because even though these rules are, or were somewhat lacking at the time.  My main concern about this season is that it seems that some admins, you know who you are, are trying to make your own version of the rules and not following procedure.  Even if a rule had to be adapted for certain reasons, a lot of these admins decide to put it upon themselves to make a ruling on this before even voting on the issue, thus making the clan that opposes the idea think that they will be fucked if they dont follow this rule when in fact it should be something for the admins to decide upon.  That is the main problem that I see.  I mean just look at the shit we had to go through with an admins attempting to abuse his powers when both of our clans agreed on a simple issue!  I think it's just crap that we cant at least be given the chance of trying to finish anything on our own time without a biased admin trying to stop us from doing so with nothing but his twisted version of what an admin is allowed to do.  

So obviously I believe that there should be a set of rules that an admin must adhere to as well.  This way ensuring that something like this does not happen, and if it does then something can be done about it.  We have all these rules for the BL, but in reality there is really little written down for rules for the admins to adhere to.  This is where the idea of setting up a topic for the forum, dedicated for all clan members to throw down some ideas and rules that the admins should adhear to.  If anyone replies to those ideas then their post should be deleted.  The forum should only be setup for the ideas themself, and only have Elan or Mauti be able to edit the posts in that area of the forum.  Give a deadline for all these ideas to be posted in this area.  Then at the end of the deadline everyone should vote on each idea for rules for the admins.  Then at that time whatever rules are voted in are rules that admins should adhear to.  This will help guide some of the admins from taking their own initiative on trying to break rules and use their power incorrectly.  Admins are here to help us solve issues for the common good of the league.  Also to enforce the forums and make sure that people are being heard and not abusing the issues.  But what really stops admins from abusing their power?  Well the chairman is a great idea that Bucc came up with and for that I have to agree that it can work, but in reality there should still be rules written down to prohibit certain behaviors of admins.  By doing that it will limit the issues that admins can do and if they break those rules, then they should be held accountable.  

:MoD:Saberian

[Supernatural Pie]

And what happens if the chairman abuses his power?

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Sab.. there are admin rules writen down in the Admin area of the forum... Mauti has the list posted there so all admins can see them... So yea.. they do have rules but I dont know what they are anymore sene I'm have not been an admin for the past season...

[BTs_Mysterio]

We should get to see the admin section.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

We should get to see the admin section.

I have been saying that for a while now.  It's like with Congress....you can see the way any member of Congress voted, and you can watch everything they say or do on TV.  If nothing else, it makes them a little more accountable for their actions.  I think the same should be done in the admin section.  Don't let anybody be able to post anything, but make it visable.

[Aramarth]

You know, if this was a democracy I would agree with you. The fact is that the admins are present to provide input from their clans, to set up a chain of command, and to make up the jury by which delinquent clans are judged. I think you know that a jury does not have it's deliberations made public, and nor should this body. If you want to know something, ask your admin. If you admin isn't telling you what you think your clan should know, replace him. I do not answer to you or any other member of BTs GS, I am the input from the MoD clan.

When a juror is out of line, the judge replaces him. Thats where Mauti and BFG come in. They cannot change the verdict of the jury nor can they vote, but they can tell the jury what the choices for a verdict are.

This is, I think, the real problem. Lawmakers have their actions made public. Admins are sometimes lawmakers. However, juries and the behind the scenes area of courtrooms are not made public. If your admins are judging a clan, they should not be open to public scrutiny. Not even the crazy protected freedoms of the USA allow this. If you want our decisions regarding new rules made public, you may have some grounds to stand on. Regardless, votes on rule violations can not and will not be made public.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

The fact is that the admins are present to provide input from their clans, to set up a chain of command, and to make up the jury by which delinquent clans are judged.

If you want to know something, ask your admin. If you admin isn't telling you what you think your clan should know, replace him. I do not answer to you or any other member of BTs GS, I am the input from the MoD clan.

Wow, hold on just a minute!  Admin are not there to provide input from their clan.  Not every clan has an admin in the BL.  Any person in the BL should be able to come to any BL Admin and put forth input for the way the BL should be run.  And yes, you do answer to every member of the BL, not just to your own clan.  I don't know where you got your thinking, but it looks like someone has told you that you are there partly to look after the best interests of your clan.  That is not true, your SOLE job is to look after the best interests OF THE ENTIRE BATTLE LEAGUE.[/size]

[Supernatural Pie]

The fact is that the admins are present to provide input from their clans, to set up a chain of command, and to make up the jury by which delinquent clans are judged.

If you want to know something, ask your admin. If you admin isn't telling you what you think your clan should know, replace him. I do not answer to you or any other member of BTs GS, I am the input from the MoD clan.

Wow, hold on just a minute!  Admin are not there to provide input from their clan.  Not every clan has an admin in the BL.  Any person in the BL should be able to come to any BL Admin and put forth input for the way the BL should be run.  And yes, you do answer to every member of the BL, not just to your own clan.  I don't know where you got your thinking, but it looks like someone has told you that you are there partly to look after the best interests of your clan.  That is not true, your SOLE job is to look after the best interests OF THE ENTIRE BATTLE LEAGUE.[/size]

GS is exactly right. As a Battle League Admin it's your responsibility to answer to EVERYONE in the Battle League, and to provide input from not just your clan, but from anyone. It's your responsibility as a Battle League Admin to vote on situations in a way that is not what's best for your clan, but what is best for the entire league.

If you didn't know that, then I think that there probably are other admins that may also feel this way, and if that's the case, then that would be a huge problem.

Aramarth... you couldn't be more wrong. And if you continue to hold steady in your opinion that you are an admin to do nothing more than represent the opinions of your clan, then I would ask for your resignation.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Really it is BS to say Admins speak for their clan. They are supposed to speak in the interest of the community and those who they agree with. And when facing the community unbias as a admin for the BL.

[Aramarth]

I think you all misunderstood me. The clan I represent has nothing to do with how I vote. My identity as a clan member is used to determine who I am responsible to speak up for. If Brutha has an idea, it is my job to present that idea. Brutha cannot post in the admin section, so that is why it is my job. I am not, and refuse to be, a tool at the disposal of just anyone. Your admins are not your slaves.

In my jury model, admins are expected to rule impartially. Being a clan member has nothing to do with this, quite obviously.

Answer to everyone? Like hell. If I choose to disagree with Civic on an issue, how is it anyone's business? In such a situation, I answer to other admins and to Mauti for my conduct, but beyond that, the rest of you can step off. If you choose to disagree with me and agree with Civic, that does not mean that I am not doing my job.

Maybe it is your wording that throws me off, but I just plain disagree that I answer to everyone. As long as I follow the rules, no clan other than MoD has the right to give me shit. That is what I mean, and no more. Shouting for my resignation and assuming incorrectly that I hold my admin position for the advantage of my clan is very insulting and wrong.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Maybe it is your wording that throws me off

No I think its your wording that throwing us off. And that part of the prob wit hthis league right now. The mentality of.. I know I'm right.. but you guys just can see why mentality. That statemnt alone shows the arrogance that makes peeps distrust the admins sometimes.

no clan other than MoD has the right to give me shit.

You represent the whole comunity.. The whole comunity can give you shit if you do something that the comunity as a whole does not agree with you.. Not just your clan. I remeber when we were slected as admins.. it was b/c the admins were the most respected players in there clan. The ones who ried to fllow the rules. As an admin.. Not everyone has to agreee with you.... But that does not mean that only your clan can give you shit when things dont go there way. Your clan should be the last group to give you shit sence they should stand behind the choises you make. So as an admin you must look out for the comunity as a whole and what best for them.. not just one small group.

[BTs_Mysterio]

We can give shit to admins who do stupid things, no matter what clan they "represent".

[BTs_GhostSniper]

If Brutha has an idea, it is my job to present that idea. Brutha cannot post in the admin section, so that is why it is my job. I am not, and refuse to be, a tool at the disposal of just anyone. Your admins are not your slaves.

You ARE the tool of everyone.  Your clan, me, or anyone else in the Battle League should be able to come to you to present an idea.  I just love how admins want to sit above it all, with this "I'm on a different level than everyone else attitude."  In a way, you are our slaves.  I have nothing against you personally Ara, but you have your thinking about this admin thing all wrong.[/size]

[BTs_Mysterio]

I agree GS.