Make Admin Votes Public...

[BFG]

damn aramarth, had you tried understanding my post, you would've seen my intention was to bring up past issues in the BL where Mods discussed matters in privately, then came to a "conclusion".? A couple of these conclusions made no sense whatsoever, so it would be to my and my clan's best interest to see how these decisions were made.? It'll clear up a lot of things for me and everybody involved and spectating.? Besides, weren't these decisions that were made "fair", so there should be no shame in showing how they came about, right?

All due respect rapid, but this is old matters to which the vast majority if not all  BL Admins have had nothing to do with.  Therefore to my knowledge there is no human way that the Admins can in some way give you the answers to your questions. Perhaps aproching those admins involved in such matters at the time would be more helpfull, but as it is water under the bridge i would leave it be now.

Im sure in a perfect world everything would be discussed over cups of tea and biscuits. However this unfortunatly is not the case. A lot of discussions have to be done in private, to keep it free from spam, flaming and useless posting how exactly could decsions be made by an entire BL community?

BL Admins are not unmoderated. The idea that decisions are made without check, that people can run wild and decide what they like is simply unfounded.

However I totally understand that the issue with the lack of communication between BL Admins and the community. That is somthing that can im sure be addressed by the admins.

[|?K|*Rapid*]

Rapid, it is not my intent to flame you with that quote. I am simply showing that AcE is a well respected clan, and that there have been instances in which people had so much respect for their abilities that they felt it would be in their clan's best interest not to cb against them. It was just coincidental that you were quoted in this particular instance.

Then how bout you state what was said, not what you want others to believe was said.  I remember that issue, and I told you, all I told kilzo, was lag is horrible on Sunday, actually, lag is horrible in the weekends in general on GR, so why would you want to CB AcE in their Alaska host(especially in Typhy's laggy alaskan host everybody's complained about since way back when) and have a warpathon.  

Nothing about "getting owned" like you're trying to state.  I do agree AcE was a cool competitive clan, but certainly, nothing like the picture you're trying to paint.  Now pls, be more mature, by being honest to yourself and others.

I respect that BFG, but as you can see, since the issue was being brought up to have the records go public, I had to support it.  And, I explained why, in case you were doubtful on why this guy that hasn't been involved in the BL for 3 seasons, would want this.  Hopefully, I answered that question ahead of time.  Thanks for your time and post.   -|?K|*Rapid*

[Mr.Mellow]

Now back on-topic. I think Rapid's posts prove why making Admin votes public is a bad idea. It would just lead to confrontations, threats, intimidation, and they'd be constantly bothered over trivial matters. There is no need for it to be public other than to give people a chance to take cheap shots at the mods and give them hell for not voting the way a person wants them to vote. I haven't heard any good arguments on why admin votes should be public. It'll just make these big arguments escalate further, and cause even MORE pointless threads on BL issues. Bad times! I don't think it's a good idea to put an admin/moderator in an uncomfortable and vulnerable position. They get enough disrespect as it is. Speaking of which, certain individuals should drop this bias they have against mods. Relax.

["Sixhits"]

>>>
quote author=BTs_GhostSniper
Now that is the same problem we have now in the U.S. Congress....people think they can just vote any old way they want and not be held accountable for it.  Well, I believe this would make the admins a little more accountable for their votes.
<<<

Sigh.

As usual we're seeing arguments that use contextually irrelevant examples as support.

I mean, come on.Take Ghost's logic to the logical extreme - no secret ballots in America. A democracy can't be democractic if everyone is looking over everyone else's shoulders when they vote! In his wetest wet dreams of authoritarian rule even Ghost should realize the sanctity of a secret ballot! It allows ppl to vote with their conscience, not with their fear.


BL Admin votes should be secret. It protects them from ppl like Ghost and me targeting flames and "sarcastic" threats of violence against those who vote against something we want.

Our hyper-competitivie natures are being taken in the wrong direction.  We shouldn't be looking for ways to undercut the authority of the admins so we can do more of what we want. We should be looking for ways to beat the other team on the field.

The BL works. The votes work. If you don't like the results, to paraphrase another authoritarian take-it-or-leave-it approach to these sorts of political issues ... if you don't like it leave the BL.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Now that is the same problem we have now in the U.S. Congress....people think they can just vote any old way they want and not be held accountable for it.  Well, I believe this would make the admins a little more accountable for their votes.

Put it another way: if you honestly believed in transparent government of the BL you wouldn't be using unnamed examples of secret votes in Congress.

When did I say anything about "secret" votes in Congress?  I simply said that people in Congress vote any way they want and not be held accountable.  Not, they wont be held accountable because their vote was secret, but wont be held accountable because most people don't bother to look up how the person actually voted.

One again, Sixhits, you prove your lack of an ability to read.

["Sixhits"]

Now that is the same problem we have now in the U.S. Congress....people think they can just vote any old way they want and not be held accountable for it.  Well, I believe this would make the admins a little more accountable for their votes.

Put it another way: if you honestly believed in transparent government of the BL you wouldn't be using unnamed examples of secret votes in Congress.

When did I say anything about "secret" votes in Congress?  I simply said that people in Congress vote any way they want and not be held accountable.  Not, they wont be held accountable because their vote was secret, but wont be held accountable because most people don't bother to look up how the person actually voted.

One again, Sixhits, you prove your lack of an ability to read.

Read your own post. It's implicit in your use of words.

You feel that Bl admins are not being held accountable for their votes.
You want future BL votes opened up to the public.
You cite Congress as an example where there is no accountablity, presumably to parallel your view of the BL.

You're right you never SAID anything about secret votes, but you are linking your arguments together: that BL votes are secret and should not be, because it limits accountablity with no accountablity in Congress for their votes.

It was seemingly obvious to me what you were saying: a comment on transparency of government.

So, then, if the issues are irrelevent to each other (secrecy and accountablity) why would you offer up Congress as an example of an unaccounable form of government? I seems to me that it's pretty accountable, at least in regards to partisan attacks on Sen. Kerry and his voting record.

Indeed, one need look no further than any public election to see evidence of faux accountablity in action - we might even call it a flame war.

But the BL admins are not elected by us. This is not a true democracy tho we get our say and those that run the BL have ours and their best interests at heart.

But what gets me going is seeing this crack down on the Admins seemingly because of an incident in which GHost's clan was heavily involved.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

But the BL admins are not elected by us.

Ah, but maybe they SHOULD be.  

["Sixhits"]

But the BL admins are not elected by us.

Ah, but maybe they SHOULD be.  

Lol .... sure, elections .... if you want 14 yrolds running this thing.

[Brain]

if admins are elected it will be a popularity contest based solely on some stupid thing like how well you can cyber in the B&G or some shit.  we would not get any sort of representative spectrum of competent admins from this system.  

ALSO  clans should not just replace their admins with another member when ever they get tired of it and hand it off to a person with insufficient league and community experience. the job of admin is a difficult one and should not be handed out based on clan membership status or charity, but instead on actual qualifications such as experience and knowledge of the existing environment

[Aramarth]

Wow Brain, I never knew I had such a hard job! Maybe I should ask for a raise. lol j/k

[Cutter]

showing the vote count isn't a bad idea. showing a name next to the vote may be though.

[c| PsyOps]

Whip it out admins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What are you afraid of?

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

To be quite honest, the way the Battle League is set up, it is a democracy...a representative democracy. From what I can see, it seems like each clan has at least one representative in the quagmire that is now known as the BL moderatorship, thus allowing each clan a representative vote.

Hate to bring up old times and what not, but Ultimo and I always made our decisions known and we would take all that came with it, praise and flak, regardless of our decisions. If you honestly feel that peer pressure would make you change a vote, or that you were afraid of voting against a friend in public, perhaps you should step down as a moderator and allow someone else who won't be afraid to take your place.

I can honestly see no harm in being accountable for your votes...you should always be able to back up why you voted the way you did in anything you do in life. If backing up how you voted seems to be a problem, then perhaps you should learn to think for yourself rather than piggybacking on someone elses reason for voting why they did.

Just speaking from experience...

[alaric]

I'm with assassin on this one. An admin should not let his opinion be swayed so easily. He must think about the issue and make a decision based on facts and logic, not polls and opinions. If you can't back up your vote with facts and logic, why are you voting that way at all? I know that I plan to make it public which way I vote on every issue and why.

Mellow, if an admin can't take Rapid's rantings then why are they an admin? We cover wearing Rapid-level flame retardant clothing on the first day.

Also, if things were to get more out of hand on a wider scale, we do have more moderators in this section than anywhere else... we could start moderating this section strictly like the GG.

[Brutha]

Mellow, if an admin can't take Rapid's rantings then why are they an admin? We cover wearing Rapid-level flame retardant clothing on the first day.

Well..this responce is not to alaric alone, but to all that feel that public voting is a good thing.

Well, as I dont know rapid, i cant be sure, but it has been told me that he has been permabanned from GR(if so...nice job) but he is one. Trying to fight flaming in a forum is a lot easier here than in GR...sure you can allways block, but you cant get away from all what is said in B&G. I guess being an admin means you give up GR. Well...an admin should handle such, right? not really..an admin is doing a job that is not paid...out of pure idealistic motives. The admin(hopefully) is working for the best of the damn BL as he or she sees it. I am thankful that some ppl are actually willing to take on this job. But as for them being held accountable for what they do...what makes you think they are not? Just because you cannot attack every case you disagree in, does it mean that your clan's representative cant take care of that? Tell me, is congress run by some idiot that you talk to every day? Do you even think that a congressman reads every letter you send him? are you an idiot?(that would be the question if you answered yes on the one before this)

I say that admins should be able to discuss in private...and never reveal who voted on what. This way they are free to vote as their consience dictates without the fear of some lunatic hunting them down. We all have different oppinions...live with it...like some of us.

[alaric]

I guess being an admin means you give up GR.

Give up GR because people are harassing you because of a vote you made? I'm sorry, I just don't see this as likely and/or possible. The reasons for which I have outlined above and will repeat again now.

1. You don't have to be an admin. It's voluntary.

2. You have to deal with other people's shit. That's the nature of the business. If you can't handle that, it's ok, just don't be an admin.

By the way, Brutha, just so you're aware, I am currently an admin. Your last post gave me the impression that you think I'm not.

[Acri]

Edit: Why do I even try?

[Brutha]

By the way, Brutha, just so you're aware, I am currently an admin. Your last post gave me the impression that you think I'm not.

Well, I was aware, not that it matters much here. As I said early in my post, it is a general post not adressed to any single person. I quoted from you because it seemed that most ppl in favor of public voting thought as you did.

I do not agree with that you have to deal with others shit, because we would then lose a lot of ppl that would make great admins due to them not wanting to deal with people yelling at them at every decision they make. Sure, it is ok and good to disagree at times, but ppl tend to get angry with others that do not have the same oppinions as they have. As you so nicely point out...it is voluntary( a point I made in my post as well....), and why loose the the ones we really want to admin the league because their votes go public. That is a scenario that can happen, because people in general are not to positive to having all their views and oppinions shown too all in public. We only have to go back to the BTs banning issue to see what happened there.....Admins involved in that decision playing on GR got insulted over PM by ppl they had never talked to.

This is not politics....it is a game. I hate to state the obvious but some ppl take this too damn seriously at times.

[BFG]

Oh and worth pointing out from Alarics post. I am not an Admin. Aramarth replaced me as the active voting Admin for the BL.



Spelled me wrong bud.
doah sorry!

[alaric]

Oh, but this is politics related to a game. It's a league and there are some things (politics included) that you're just not gonna be able to avoid. Like any sport, people are gonna bitch at the umpires/admins. No matter what. That's just the nature of the beast. And as wise a decision maker as any person is, if they can't take the bitching, they just don't have what it takes to be an admin. That's one of the qualifications of admin status.