Terrorism Debate

[*DAMN Postal Worker]

*sits here being an American and being quite offended by the Anti-American comments*  Don't mind me...

[Ace]

Fuck. This has gone from terrorism to flag burning. I put flag burners in the circle of hell just barely above terrorists. Blah blah blah, its a protest, blah blah blah. Bullshit. In this country, there are tons of other ways to make a statement without burning something that men have gone to war and died war. Flags are laid on the coffins of veterans. Why not just dig up the coffins and burn 'em? That would make a fucking statement too.

[Grifter]

Hey Ace,
That's exactly why burning a flag is a stupid way to make a statement.... because people react that way.  But remember.... flying the Nazi flag... the Stars and Bars... or burning our Flag... those are rights that those vets fought and died for.... no matter how stupid you'd have to be to do any of them.

[Ace]

Yes, I realize that they fought for those rights too... it's just a shame that the right to be a dumbass is inherently tied to greater freedoms.

[Precious_Roy]

Loud, flag burning is protected under the 1st ammendment, right now.  But every year members of Congress advocating the end of that freedom.

As I suspected Ace supports it... which proves my point, he is not only blinded by patriotism, he is defiled by it.

How bout we respect our veterans by respecting our freedoms, and just as importantly respecting other (Afgans) peoples freedoms?  Seems like that would honor our veterans a lot more than worshiping a piece of fucking cloth.

[jn.blackhand]

Though I don't appreciate people burning the American flag in protest, I understand that it is protected by the 1st Amendment. And while I agree with everything you said Mort, you are downplaying the significance of the flag.

Piece of fucking cloth? Is a statue of the Virgin Mary just marble?

Would Veterans be better honored by respecting our freedom? Yes. Would God be better served by being a kind and loving person rather than worshipping him? Yes.

The flag represents freedom and the ideals on which our Country and freedom are based upon. Don't talk as though the flag is just cloth.

[Precious_Roy]

[You crossed the line. I won't stand for that. Ace], The flag IS just cloth. ?It is what they represnt that counts. ?their destruction is no destruction of an ideal, only of an object. ?Tn fact, the only object that is more than the sum of it's part is the living organism, more specifically, us.

But I have gotten us way off topic. ?My bad.

Back to the question at hand:

Terrorism is bad.
Libralism is good.

Blind Patriotism,
Blind Pacifism,
Blind Hate, ? ? ? ? ?disastorous.

Yay for rampant generalizations!

[Ace]

I am sorry that I had to do that, but that just overstepped the bounds of debate. You may argue that it's my religious beliefs taking over, but I don't really give a crap. I just found that totally offensive and inappropriate.


BTW, "Libralism" is pretty overrated, just as spelling obviously is on these forums.

[Grifter]

Sweet Jesus.... what goes here?  Hypocracy abounds, name-calling is rampant, people are not listening, and spelling sucks.

Starting for the record... I'm a dead pat moderate (scored a 50 on the test in poli-sci).  Go figure.. me being able to see both sides.

So, while I see the stupidity and feel insulted by the flag burners, I do think it's their right to protest in that manner...   While I see the need to so something different and violent towards terrorism and terrorists, I do hope that we do it in a way to not kill any innocent people and keep the world from war.

So Mort... while you don't believe that a symbol is important at all... and you don't think that the union of states are greater then the sum of the parts... that's fine, it's your opinion... let's not start the name calling (you saw how effective that was with Bander).  Just because Ace is more conservative then you (ok, that's an understatement)... doesn't invalidate his words.  

It's when ideas that are different come together for debate that things are grown and understood.  It's how we learn and judge.  Bander forgot that and started hurling insults in a stereotypical (or "over generalized") way.  That deminished his arguments.  Don't fall into that trap.  If you think that Ace's view is wrong about flag burning.... discuss the points... or what is the point... eh?

[jn.blackhand]

Mort I think you might be a bit offended if I went around wearing a Nazi flag draped around my shoulders. Sure, the flag itself is a piece of cloth, but what it stands for is the reason people take offense to seeing the swastica.

When someone burns our flag, they are burning a symbol of our liberty. It's within their rights, but offensive regardless.

If the flag is just cloth, then is a statue of jesus just stone? Is a gravestone just granite? Is a nobel peace prize just a gold? Or an Olympic medal just a piece of cloth attached to gold, silver, or bronze?

If so, then why do people get upset when they are vandalized, stolen, etc.

Setimental value. Sure, some of my vost valued possesions are just newspaper clippings, yet they represent and mean more to me than just that.

Are your parents just breeders to you?

[Grifter]

I know I'd find it offensive to see you running around naked, draped in a nazi flag.... and only some of it's from the nazi flag part.....

hehe.

Ok, re-reading some of the stuff here I notice a little modification of Mort's post by Ace.... I have two things to say to that:

1)I'm going to guess that Mort said something truely offensive about the statue of Mary (or something like that). To Ace I'm going to say that I probably (can't say for sure as I didn't see it before editing) would not have censored the post. As stated before, I believe that freedom of speach includes the freedom to be a dumbass. Which leads me to:

2) To Mort, Bander, and really everyone else here. Let us not forget about

RESPECT! It's very disrespectful to call people names... to spit upon their opinions... to wish people death and pain... to insult their beliefs. I don't care what you (anyone) believes in... I'm no jew, but I'd never take a piss on the Wailing Wall... I'm no moslem, but I'd never spit at Mecca... I'm no liberal, but I'd never beat down a flag burner or homosexual... Why? Because I respect the opinions of others, no matter how different or idiotic they may be to me.[/list]

On a last note... I'm a patriot. That doesn't mean I'm a blind nationalist... it means that I believe in the things that this country (and by representation, it's flag) happen to mean. So, how about increasing the amount of respect shown to your fellow human beings and lowering the insult levels a bit.
[/color]


[I noticed a ton of ?'s throughout your post. I doubt these were intentional, but they made it hell to read. If they were there for a purpose (failed code of some sort?) I'm sorry. Ace]

[Precious_Roy]

Ace:      
     So my spelling is bad.  I typed that post quickly and the typos and misspellings were excessive.  Nearly everyone is guilty of that crime here, so it seems pointless to single me out.  Single me out if you must if that is the most effective argument you have.  I won't stop you.  (For those who care, the correct spelling is Liberalism)
As for your censorship of my post, I may have worded that incorrectly.  I meant to qualify the start of that sentence with "The statue of..."  No theologian in the world would disagree with my statement, as now edited.  As I said, the object is nothing, it is what the object symbolizes that counts. I am a Catholic. (I assume you are too, being that you are Irish and took you offence to that particular comment) My statement does not contradict OUR beliefs/religon.  

Grift(post 1):
     When you speak of the states, such talk is based on an IDEA, not an object.  I speak only of the fizekull world.  
     I put that "rampant generalization" comment at the end of my post to show that I am not speaking maliciously, but that i understand the flaws in my post.  Evrything after my first paragraph was to revive the debate as it related to Loudnotes first post.  I obviously revived the debate... but not in the way I wished.

Are your parents just breeders to you?

Blackhand, two things:
     First, you know my parents... and you just brought to mind the image of them having sex.  Shame on you!
     Second, read my posts next time.  I specifically said "the only object that is worth more than the it's {I'll do you a favor and point out the grammer mistake there, it should be "its", not "it's" - P-Roy} parts is the living organism..."  I was referring to mankind, and if i'm not mistaken, my parents belong in that catagory.

Grift (post 2):
     I did not name call or point fingers.  I may have offended, but I hope my current post is clearing those things up.  
                 a)I did miss-word my virgin mary comment.  For this I am sorry.
                 b)Have I stopped respecting you, Ace, black, or anyone else?  Not                                                            that I can see.
     Finally, I put "blind" before both patriotism and pacifism because though neither are evil in any sense, when they are followed without thought the effects are disastorous.

I hope I have clarified my post to which you all object so much.  More will come soon enough in response to all of your debatable points

(On a lighter, unrelated note, I'll be posting in the next 2 days a T.E.T editorial on etiquette, as it applys to CSL)

[jn.blackhand]

sigh. i'd respond, but i'll just punch mort when i see him.

[Bander from work]

Mort: dont argue with them anymore. Its only a stupid 3 people coversation here anyways (i will not answer to those nerdish comments of the flag-burning theme too, but any intelligent person will see the stupidy of most arguments there - i hope).

Mr. Grifter put on his "wise man of peace" mask again and felt moody to adress this to me (and other glorious info and tips):

"... 2) To Mort, Bander, and really everyone else here. Let us not forget about RESPECT! "

muahahaha. yeah. indeed. but please: think whatever u want about whatever u wanna think, i figured out your (ace, black, grift and some "guests") opinions are just disgusting me - this is what i think personally so stop adressing your "opinions" to me (im not letting me being provocated by u guys again):

"... Because I respect the opinions of others, no matter how different or idiotic they may be to me."

LOL unbelievable that u can post such a bullshit after your other posts here.

i just have one thing to say: NO one is consoring anything here!!! if i catch somebody censoring others free speech here i will make sure that mauti gets another moderator for this thread. (general gossip).

he would make me an admin too - but im not interested to cocky run around here. so watch what u say. FOR SURE it will NOT happen that u spam this forum with your "opinions" and censore other ones. Never!

Precious Mort - message me on GR so we can swap email adresses (actual ones). i think we could have a better discussion about the recent political situation "privately". I am hangin in the web 6 hours a day actually, filtering out everything concerning this Crisis.
Could get u some kewl URLS with news-compilations from all important newspapers in english language.
And we wouldnt offend each other about any spelling failures - i bet on that.

LoL and Mort - didnt check it on time that u have been "Roy" earlier on GR

[jn.blackhand]

sigh. if only bander knew what mort really thought about his comments.

[Grifter]

"... Because I respect the opinions of others, no matter how different or idiotic they may be to me."

LOL unbelievable that u can post such a bullshit after your other posts here.

Bander, you are pretty pathetic.  You are really as bad as Romulus.  Face it, you can't read ENGLISH if you think I don't respect others opinions.  I was the first here to support your opinions... I even quoted them for you... If I'm full of shit... find the post and quote it here.  Go ahead.  Maybe by re-reading them, you'll figure out that I am a moderate.  That, maybe, you mistook sarcastic remarks for opinion.  Probably not though, you probably won't take the time to read them.  You started the insults here.

As for being a moderator... fuck you.  Mauti asked me to, I never asked to be one.  I've only upheld the standards that Mauti expressed to me when he asked me to do it.  I've heard enough of you and your "My Forums" bullshit.  You are the one here that doesn't respect others opinions.  You and Zak were the ones throwing insults early.  So please, if you can't express your opinions intellegently, then yes, please go do them in private.  Because of you, I feel less sympathy for the Afghans now.  I don't want that.

[Ace]

Well GRIFT, I think that moderator comment of Bander's was directed at me. I highly doubt he is even dumb enough to suggest that you are a bad moderator.


Let me just state that if comes down to me trying to stop something that I extremely offensive religiously, I am going to censor it. I have done this once. I rarely do more with my moderator powers than delete smilies and delete double postings. I doubt anyone would say I am a bad moderator. Mauti asked me to do the job, and I feel I have done a damn good job of it. Before you started your mindless rantings, not once did someone complain to my knowledge of my moderatoring abilities before this. If a lot of people have a problem with me, I will resign, but I highly doubt this is the case.


Elaborating on what GRIFT said, these are basically no more your forums than they are mine, GRIFT's, Wrath's, blackhand's, Mort's, and anyone else who comes here regularly. Yes, you created *DAMN, but to the best of my knowledge, this site and these forums are almost entirely the work of Mauti (and helpers like Elandrion to a lesser extent)

[Precious_Roy]

Bander, and to anyone else who cares: my email is Morttty@aol.com (yay for crappy internet providers)

Black-dawg: ?I think nothing bad or good about bander's comments. ?Truth is, I only skimmed the last set that eceryone got so riled up about. ?I figured if Grift was mad he must have said some crazy shizat. ?i still stick with that opinion.

Ace, Bander: ?Though I dislike this sole act of censorship, I understand the rational and have not complained. ?If it had really bothered me I would have posted it in another section, where Ace lacks the powers of moderation.

To all: This is a conversation between myself and douf which ?I've found amusing enough to post...


Morty969: ? ? ?I posted a big long statement of clarification
Dfresh3: ? ? ?you're an idiot
Morty969: ? ? ?arguebly
Morty969: ? ? ?true, the arguments are stronger for the opposing side...
Dfresh3: ? ? ?haha. what did ace edit?
Morty969: ? ? ?"The virgin mary IS stone"
Morty969: ? ? ?or "a piece of marble"
Morty969: ? ? ?or something to that extent
Dfresh3: ? ? ?lol.
Dfresh3: ? ? ?you're confirmed. you're supposed to buy into all the shit catholics try to evangelize.
Morty969: ? ? ?hahaha
Morty969: ? ? ?remember, I'm not a very good catholic.
Dfresh3: ? ? ?you like to disagree just to disagree. that's what you two are really bitching about.
Morty969: ? ? ?to an extent
Morty969: ? ? ?we also have deep ideological differences.
Morty969: ? ? ?but disagreeing is fun
Dfresh3: ? ? ?bah. if you really believed in what you were saying you'd burn an american flag.
Morty969: ? ? ??
Dfresh3: ? ? ?and piss on a statue of the virgin mary.


Now now Douf, I won't go that far. ?I don't burn the flag because I have the freedom to burn it, and I don't piss on a statue of the Virgin Mary because, well, what's the point? ?No use pissing off God anymore than I've already pissed Him off. (I'm also, contrary to popular belief, a big fan of this "Respect" evreyone's been talking about.)

[Grifter]

Hey Mort,
I'm just going through this thread again, since Bander is of the opinion that I'm a warmongering ass... I figured that if I was going to challenge him to re-read my posts, I should do the same.

So, that said, I think I was a little harsh on you.  I was pissed at Bander, and saw a tiny piece of what he was doing in your posts.  So, I was wrong for directing my anger towards you, and I'm sorry.  

But, I still can't figure out why Bander turned into a blind ass.  Ah, but I guess it doesn't really matter, if he's decided to become a Dumbass... it's not my place to stop him.

[jn.blackhand]

sigh.