Terrorism Debate

[Bander (Afghan)]

Bah u are all blood thirsty idiots and NO INCH better than those bin laden fukcers and co! One one side u cry for the victims of WTC on the other side u are racial slurs who say: American are "more valuable" humans than others. Bah - since i read what americans "demand", and what Bush says i have lost even more respect for that "great" nation. Listen:

Kill or harm my aunt (76 years old) in kabul and u have another anti-taliban afghan against you:

ME!

regards idiots (mauti these forums are "poisoned" for me - everytime i log into our own website i get abused by those shithead comments!)

i hate the taliban but if u go to afghanistan and kill innocent afghans there we will have a "fair" payoff for every single civilian that u killed. afghan fighters need no fuel, no ammunition and no food. what they need they get from their foes. a dead foe has anything u will need in afghanistan till the next firefight will be.
u can bomb our civilians like the russians did (for years). go kill even more of our children and war-widows, or their men who cant feed their families then. There will always be afghans left to take "Infinite justice" on every foreign agressor there. We will NOT allow americans or any other "wannabe napoleon" to harm our people by cowardish mass-bombing raids like in bosnia. If there will be dead children and old people we will kill those murderers - no difference if they are americans, taliban, europeans or other asia-states. Then u can expect our infinitive justice! bet on that.

Afghans will always fight man vs man. Afghans didnt use terrorist tactics against the UDSSR the WHOLE war against them (more than 10 years). I dont know what bin laden fukcers men will do in the meantime to the U.S. and others - but AFGHANS wont use terror even when the world start to terrorize the afghan people again!

lol - i just say: somalia

loud notes may be only 14 years old but when i red his opening post i really thought: wow man - this guy should write comments for the newspapers. its amazing how clear loud sees all these issues and how  perfect he analyzed the whole situations. respect my friend!

but u OTHERS(!!!) who just talk about "invasion", b-52 somewhat bombers, cruise missles etc. dont know NOTHING about the region, its people and its history.
Why? Cuz u are overweighted fat americans - who dont get a good enough education to check out anything that takes place 10 miles away from your neighborhood. the only thing u are interested is waving your flag, cheering to whatever your president says and watching CNN (if there is no sit-com on another channel).

Europe? Bah - its true. They just talk and do NOTHING. Suddently sanctions get lifted from one day to the other, UN mandats are not longer needed, police rights are getting updated (big brother is watching u), army forces get financial boosts, U.S. can check out EVERY police computer in whole europe. Europe really is a pile of shit (austria too). Tony Blair that monkeyhead cant even do anything about the IRA Bombings (Terror too) but blows himself to the size of a big baloon whenever he notices a TV camera nearby. Same with the Spains (ETA), Italians (red army fraction), germans (neonazis) and even the americans (michigan militia, and several other right weighted paramilitant groups).

By the way: Maybe Switzerland (neutral) should bomb out the U.S. facilitys where they are doing experiments with "Anthrax" a nerv-gas wich is one of the worst chemo-biologic mass destruction weapon ever. (Forbidden too since the seventies - but lol - why should americans care? its just for "self defence".)

HEY - I AM REALLY TIRED TO TALK WITH U ON AND ON without having ANY positive effects on what u think.
I will not post much anymore about all this cut it seems senceless to argue with those 75% of u americans who claimed they still vote for an military(!) engagement in afghanistan EVEN if this would cost SEVERAL THOUSAND dead civilians! Vapor is not even allowed to receive the damn birthday cd-rom and video via airmail cuz of his parents and here he acts as the heroic american fighter. u little boy: eat some vitamines and grow up a little. lol - pathetic.

greets *DAMNs and my few "real" friends on GR!

[Ace]

Ok, first let me clear up something. I meant to say sacrifice 100 Afghan soldiers. Yes, this still may be racist, but you can kiss my patriotic ass. *Cue overtly patriotic rant* Our soldiers have been fighting against tyranny, oppression, and terror for longer than our great nation has existed. Men have gone and died for our great nation, for your right to come here and spew all the anti-American bullshit you want without fear of repercussions. These men include my grandfather, my grandfather who had to occupy Japan with his wife and 4 children (2 born on the base there). You want to tell me that we shouldn't have nuked Japan so that he wouldn't have to fight and risk his life anymore? These men also include my uncle (the firefighter) You want to tell me that I'm wrong to think that his life is more important than some communist Vietnamese bitch. I would definitely love to tally how many lives he has saved since. Now, you want to tell me that a soldier who either supports Osama Bin Laden, the Taliban, or both is just as valuable as an American soldier who stands for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Fuck no. These men are out there fighting to protect us, fight against injustice, and guarantee our way of life. If you don't want to give them the respect they deserve, I suggest you go try living in Afghanistan.




Another thing. I have never advocated intentional killings of Afghanistan civilians. However, if we are forced to go to war, everyone must understand that innocents will be lost. I know you may not like it, but it's a fact. The only thing we can do is try our best to minimize these losses.

***Timeout. I am watching CNN right now, and I just heard that they changed the name from Operation Infinite Justice to Operation Enduring Freedom because it "offended some Muslim groups". Fucking politically correct pussies. If those fucking activist groups have a problem with dealing out the justice those terrorist bastards deserve, they deserve to share their fate. Now back to your regularly scheduled ranting.***

If we go to war, the safety of our boys has to come first. Afghan civvies second. You may call me racist. pigheaded, or whatever you want. I would just like you to personally go up to my uncle and tell him you disagree with this before you start bitching. Just make sure it's not while he is on his shift, he has a pretty damn important job.




What next. Ahhh, Vietnam comparisons. GRIFT makes two damn good points. Also, Mort, don't even compare us to Hitler in any way shape or form:
A) We aren't trying to take over the world and institute a Nazi regime.
B) Our technology is so insanely superior it's ridiculus. They may have terrain, but as long as we have a slight clue where they are, we can strike from a distance. Wanna know what equipment they got over there? It's older than me; it's that same shit we gave them at the start of the 80's. We will control the skies to our pleasing, and give any air support we want. Even if it comes down to man to man combat, our soldiers are more disciplined, better trained, and superiorly equipped.




Mort, don't give me that shit that they will turn Osama Bin Laden over. You and I both know that ain't happening. And we have exhausted diplomacy. We sent them proof (If you don't believe me, do some *good* research and find out for yourself) that Bin Laden was involved; we don't have Bin Laden in our hands. Bye bye diplomacy.




Bander, don't even try to call me an un-educated, overweight American. I have probably read and seen more about this subject and history in general than almost anyone here. The overweight one is classic too. If you got the balls/stupidity, you can come play some water polo with me. I'm used to going up against guys who have 2 inches and 35 lbs of muscle on me. I doubt you would be a problem. And hell yeah we wave our flag. You ever think that it's because our flag stands and has always stood for ideals greater than any other nation in the world? You ever wonder why any good American will do ANYTHING to protect our flag from even touching the ground? I went home to weekend after the attacks. I saw my grandfather's flag, and that has to be one of the most inspirational things I have ever seen. It sent chills down my spine.




Finally, before you all go accusing the US of bullshit (supporting the IRA, having anthrax labs) I want some damn good proof. And no, the CDC doesn't count as a goddamn anthrax lab.

[jn.blackhand]

I'm with Ace on this one.

No one meant or even said that American lives were more important than everyone elses. The general sentiment is that though we don't want any people to die and we don't condone killing innocent people, we would rather have a few ACCIDENTAL deaths of innocent people then another WTC incident.

To be clear, we would prefer that NO innocent people got hurt, but realistically, that probably won't happen.

No one is going out and trying to kill civilians, but should we go to war, people will die both good and bad. It's a shame, but it will happen.

And when it comes down to it, I would rather live with the guilt of a FEW innocent ?deaths regardless of their nationality that resulted in a major win over terrorism, than the pain and suffering of losing THOUSANDS of people, REGARDLESS OF NATIONALITY.

This isn't America vs. terrorism. THIS IS THE WORLD VS. TERRORISM. And as usual, the US will play\ a major part in this fight against terrorism and will get all the blame for any mishaps.

--------

Bander, fuck you. Your rantings are such bullshit.

You criticize people for making derogitory comments about Afghanistan citizens and then call Americans fat lazy assholes.

You talk as if none of us Americans ever have a hard time. You talk as though we walk through life.

Well, I am motherfucking hard times. I've been sick on and off for 4 years. I've gone through excruciating pain and had it last for months at a time. I've gone through more suffering in four years than you will in your entire life.

Don't give me any of your shit. Take your rhetoric and go preach to some American hating Europeans. Then shove it up your ass. Take a walk outside. Play with your friends.

Over here we'll be mourning the loss of thousands of lives, donating money, blood, and our time. Then, we'll be working to rid the world of terrorists.

[jn.loudnotes]

I must say that Bander, blackhand, and Ace all have valid points and well written opinions.  However, the way you all bash each other silly is utterly ridiculous.  I feel like a kindergarten teacher here....grow up y'all!

When I started this thread, I just wanted to hear some of your opinions, not to lose respect for any of you.  While I feel some of you are clearly in the wrong, isn't the point for us all to learn and better grow as people....

Take a look at these many viewpoints which have gathered nowhere else in the world.  This is a unique place to discuss your opinions, so lets keep it that way.

Perhaps we are all wrong, but isn't this what makes democracy so wonderful?

Bander speaks as an Afgan, a unique perspective I haven't seen anywhere else, and he is priveleged enough to be able to view US policy without blind nationalism to cloud his view

Blackhand apparently speaks with the voice of a physically disabled patriot, who values country over life.  We all have something to learn from him.

Ace shares a similar patriotism, and gives a voice to the rightist view of things.

Mort is the classic 'armchair liberal' but his ideas are credible and his theory well-based.

And where am I?  I try to offer my own brand of opinions, but I find it striking how little agreement we, an unlikely band of several strangers, can reach.  How will the whole world be able to reach consensus either?


-Grifter I didn't forget you I just have to go now

[Grifter]

::RANT MODE ENGAGED::

Mort,
If you think that: "No, the answer was that the Swiss had the ability to defend every mountain pass the nazi's attacked." is true, you better read a bit more history.  Or at least watch more of the History Channel.  The Nazi's had oh, so many reasons not to invade Switzerland.....

• Swiss were neutral... and posed no threat.
  
• Swiss mercinaries were feard throughout Europe.
  
• Hitler was fighting a war on many fronts, and was more concerned with keeping neutral countries (like the Swiss and Americans at the time) out of the war.
  
• This list could go on, but I'm sure you get the point.

Now, looking at the Nazi's, trying to spread out from the middle of Europe, it's easy to understand why they'd want to avoid areas where the terrain was unfavorible for them, and fighting wasn't necessary.  

Ok, that said, we are now looking at the world around Afghanistan pointing in.  America wouldn't have to worry about Russia invading through Alaska, would it?  Or Japan attacking Hawaii again (look out Civ!!)?  Nope.  America, NATO, and everyone else involved can focus their full attention on the problem at hand.  That's something new, that hasn't happened very often.  Not at Vietnam, not when the USSR was invading Afghanistan.  

Bander,
my respect for you is starting to slip my friend.  When you first posted here, you made some very good posts (like Loudnotes) about how the average Afghan isn't behind this, thought it was wrong, and that holding those people responsible was not right either.  And I agreed with all those points..... but when you start slandering America, comparing us with Napoleon, calling us fat, overweight, and undereducated....... well, that's the talk of children.  Do you really think I'm a fat, stupid, ugly American?  If you do, I pity you.  Take some of your own and Loudnote's (and mine as well!) advise, and let some of the anger go before you do something wrong.  You want to talk about all the things you don't know about American history (only a few hundred years....), we can talk all day about the gorillia fighting that went on in AMERICA hundreds of years ago..... when different tribes of Native Americans fought on BOTH sides of Many WARS here.....  So, let's not get on any high horses about what history we know, or don't know..... ok?

As for America being defeated by Afghanistan...... well, in that decade of fighting the USSR.... we (Americans) GAVE YOU WEAPONS.  You think those stinger missles that were used to shoot down helicopters were "found on the battlefield"?  Considering that the USSR doesn't make them?  We Americans started supplying AK-47's and ammo not 13 days after the USSR invaded.  Maybe you should read more yourself.....

Even more..... the LAST time America WENT TO WAR, Japan and Germany were many decades to recover.  America has not declared WAR since then.  You really think that Afghanistan has more of a chance then Japan did?  Ever think of what a few Nukes would do?  After all... isn't that how we ended the LAST WAR AMERICA WAS IN?

And, isn't this more then America??  Isn't this NATO, plus a few dozen other countries that have had enough of TERRORISM??  

::RANT MODE OFF::

Now, all that said, I'm not in favor of killing any Afghan's that are not ACTIVLY HARBORING TERRORISTS.  Let's face it, there's a good chance that some of the terrorists were here in Dearborn, Michigan.... does that mean we should Bomb Dearborn?? (shut up you guys that don't want me on GR anymore).  I only want the guilty punished!  I know that innocents will die, because they already have, and they always do.  I just don't want anyone thinking it's right!  I don't want anyone thinking that killing Afghan's wholdsale is ok... that their lives are any less valuable then our own.  The blood of innocents will be spent to save the lives of other innocents  in the long run.  My points are that it shouldn't be thought of in any disrespect (which abounds here), and it should always be kept at the minimum..... or we are no better then those we call Terrorists.



[/color]

[jn.blackhand]

First of all, I think it's safe to assume that NO ONE here wants innocent people to die, but at the same time we all want Bin Laden captured, just we each have different opinions on how to get him.

grift, that's what i've been trying to say, but I just couldn't seem to put it eloquently. Thank you for speaking intelligently.

loud, while your attempts to keep the peace both on and off this forum are admirable, i think you're missing something. What it is, I don't know. Maybe you're more optimistic than realistic (which in the long run will be a great characteristic). I don't mean to play the age factor here, but I know that when I was fourteen I didn't understand international tragedies to the extent that i do now.

Regardless, your ideas are thoughtful and you're infinitely more intelligent than many of the older members of the forum.

However, I am not blinded by "national patriotism." I have many complaints about the USA, but as far as this tragedy goes, I think the US has handled it admirably. Remember, though we talk about war and missles, we have yet to do anything in the means of warfare.

As for Mort having credible ideas, you obviously don't know him well enough. He is completely jaded and bordering on insane. but that's why we love him.

And just so you know I'm not disabled in a normal way, a condition rather than a disease. It's not that bad, well except for a 2 month long migraine and that whole inability to do anything for long periods.

Bander, The USA's demands of the Taliban are completely just. Maybe you didn't realize this, but the Afghanistan government has WILLINGLY and KNOWINGLY harbored terrorists. We ask them to help turn over Bin Laden, a terrorist linked, if not behind the WTC attack and they refuse.

If we go to war with Afghanistan, it's because the Taliban refused to help capture an truly evil man who was a threat not only the US but to the WORLD.

I think your views would be much different if someone you knew was killed in the WTC attack or better yet, if someone you knew was killed in a terrorist attack in your country.

[Grifter]

Thanks Blackie,

Sorry for the Rant.... but stupid people always piss me off.  The racist assholes that want to whipe a country off the map piss me off.... the hypocrites that don't believe it's right for people to express their views (just because they are anti-american) really piss me off.  And now Bander, who was speaking with reason and logic before, has stooped down to the name calling insults and stereotyping too.  

I mean, I don't agree with everything you (Blackie) or Ace has said..... it's opiniion.  I have mine, you have yours, and every asshole out there has his.  The difference is, it's informed opinion, expressed with intelligence.  So, while I don't agree with Ace that an American life is worth more then any other.... that's ok.  It's his opinion, and he's not a "stupid, fat, uneducated american looking for the next Burger King" because of it.  And while I wish I was more of a Budhest (in terms of respecting all life as sacred) like Loud, I'm not.  I respect Loud for expressing the more unpopular view that I agree with in point, but am not a good enough human being to follow up with.  What I don't respect is the name calling or the "Yeah, but what you did before is worse" stuff.  Everyone here knows that EVERY country has done some pretty shitty things at one time or another.  That HISTORY is no excuse for the actions of the present.  And I truely believe that justice must be served!  And Justice is BLIND.... so if that means when America does wrong, Justice should get her bite of our ass too.  I just don't think we're wrong in this case yet.  Talk is cheap, all we've done so far is try to get to the bottom of WHO should be blamed... eh?

[Bander I.]

I have nothing to add to what i said before. Ace u are a nationalist and if u would have grown up during 1938 - 1945 here some facists would have had their pure joy with your thinking i guess (its easy to replace a flag and wave with another one).

U are at the same damn point as the fukcing nazis have been once: We are the number 1 race/nation and all other nations are just nations with degenerated underlings - in the "partisan"(!) wars the german used the same "tactics" as your stupid (aces) arguments are:
When they killed a german soldier - they shot 3 of their civilians. Saying: "This is un-avoidable to show them who has the power here now." - reminds me on somewhat.

Ace and the other (for my taste 100%) morons:
Typical American: U always try to claim ALL victories on world that happen to be YOURS. (like the capture of ENGIMA - but it was the brits who captured it!) U say u gave us afghans the weapons to defeat the UDSSR? LOL. U may think so cuz u are "conditioned" from ur goverment to avoid "independend thinking". So when always the superiour U.S. aided the afghans against the U.S. answer me this: Where have the U.S. been when afghan rebels fought out the Brithis Expeditions Corps 2 times during the colonial times?

And on the end of your statements - when u claim u have the better "tools of destruction" (as i said u always do in my previous post - tnx for prooving my point) u turn into such cowards that the only thing thats left to say for u is: If we cant win on ground we will nuke em.

THIS is as bad thinking as nazi shit has been i say.

U ask me if i would NOT have dropped atomic-bombs on nagasaki and hiroshima? u ask if i would NOT have burned old people, shool kids, housewives, nurses, people in the hospitals, mothers, sisters, daughters, sons, uncles, aunts, grandfathers and grandmothers? U ask if i would NOT have bring stravation and radiation to those people? U ask if i would NOT have killed thousands and thousand innocent civilians in japan in the end of war?

My answer is: YES - i would NOT have done that shit.

All of u who feel personal offended by my "fat, uneducated" statement: Okay you CAN feel offended. Cuz i knew when i posted this, that only guys where these attributes fit on would take it personal. Gotcha morons.

Grift and the others here who waste my once so beloved forums: Go to hell with your advices to me how to "discuss" here. I dont care what people like u think about me - u are not the kind of people i wanna have props from. and i dont care if i loose your respect - i spit on your "respect" - u are unable to respect human life at all - so i dont need your fukcing idiot respect at all.  

blackhand u still didnt check that the taliban are NOT the afghan goverment. lol - he doesnt check that i am AGAINST the taliban (much longer than u clowns even know they exist). dont drag dirth on me and my people by putting us into the same box like those fukcers!!!
we will kill bin laden for our won reasons if we get him (bet ur hairy asses on that) - and we will kill any other murderer of afghan civilians the same way.

[Bander II.]

And one more about the american "fight of freedom":

Saudi Arabia - a worse regime that violates the human rights on and on, Bin Laden comes from there: Goverment installed by the U.S.

Masharif - pakistans dictator: Bush?s Whore (and an asshole), supported the Taliban along with the U.S. (go and check some old washington post articles from last year) is a military dictator who overthrowed the regular goverment by force.

Kuwait: Founded by the Brits after the colonial times as an independend "kingdom" where no democracy will be found too. (but who cares: america gets its oil - so who cares about human rights. lol u are so sick)

Irak: Saddam still there. U.S. and Nato had possibilitys to get that swine and bring him to justice too. For some odd reasons the U.S. and Nato stopped their war "for justice & freedom" there - and left Saddam rule one there (wtf??) - the Irakis will be very "grateful" i think.
Also the Curds who followed the U.S. calls to rise up against Saddam and who now pay for their attemts. (left all alone by the U.S. now). But yeah - bomb the civilians is always a great idea - cuz "WE CAN do it" - sick.)

Vietnam: Tnx for all the mess

Kuba: The american "holy and good" goverment admitted already that they sabotaged various food programs and deliverys to kuba to weaken the support for castro during the crisis. They added lotta sanctions till Kuba was on the ground economically -then they put their fingers on them and said: Look what communism has done to poor Kuba. Snakes.

Cambotcha:

Panama:

Ah yes: Yugoslavia. I love the peace u brought there: Serbs still run around and claim they are "the poor" and misused people and there where "no massacres done by serbs" during the war. Macedonia falls apart and Kosovo still is a dead-ground.

Africa: Good plan - bring marines there to stabilize the area - let them get photographed while leaving the boats. Then order em back ASAP as soon a rebel fires a shot with his gun there. (i always wonder what happes to the "friends" of the U.S. after they are left behind wherever they "helped").

Bah - i am trying to explain things to some morons again but i should already know they have nothing in their brain than a (i must say it IS beautiful) flag (uuuhhhh kill civilians is NECASSERY but our FLAG will NEVER touch the ground - uhuuu!!! wow "the patriot". disgusting!). One last question: How many americans die every year cuz of these totally mad "fire arms laws" (means: want a gun? - go buy a gun). How many americans die cuz of their social situation (black people, social victims) every year? I agree: Terrorism must be defeated (by anti Terror POLICE Squads) but if u re brabbeling about "infinite justice" u should bring it to your own country too.

caution: This statement is refering to the "discussion" points here about "what afghans deserve" for various reasons. I am not defending bin laden fukcer or those "walking death" taliban occupants. But i defend the honour of my people against ur moody american nationalism and your permanent threatenings about what will happen to "the afghans".

THIS is not a discussion like we had ever before in these  Forums. THIS time i will remember the assholes and divide the "morons" from the ones "who are equipped with a working brain" on GR.  I dont give a fukc on being friends with people who cant even look over the ream of their coffee cup.

If there is a god somewhere he will take care bout the poor victims of the WTC and OTHER places on this planet where INNOCENT people died (and die).
And if it is so i bet: they all SPIT on u and will not need the blessings of bloodthirsty people like u who arent any better than the asshole bin laden.

warmongers, nationalists, little wheenies
go to hell and stay there a long time pls.

tnx

P.S.: Mauti u must make me my own forum. i cant enter this one anymore without getting mad and sad at the same time by reading those crappy shit here everywhere. Please dude: make it like the Grey Death forums but i will make a r6 flag for it. and when done DONT link it to this "poisoned ground" here please.

[dave-s]

Bander:  The Taliban have been aided by the US not only in weaponry but also intelligence, it was the CIA [someone may correct me] who pointed the Taliban to the location of Russian arms dumps when they retreated.

Dont get me wrong I totally agree that the Afghan people in large should not be punished or harmed, only those that hrbour terrorists and terrorists themselves.

And yes Americans [not all] are loud, full of themselves, patriotic [isnt everyone proud of their nationality], the US government has made some situations worse rather than help, but think of what they have done in terms of quality of life and what they stand for. And [Im presuming you are not in Afghanistan] if it wasnt for countries like the US youd be stuck in your homeland with a worse standard of living.

Now you can call all you like because I can just laugh it off.

Oh and the IRA have been funded for years by American groups, thats why Clinton took a trip over their to stop attacks, if they had never been involved would he have gone???

[Bander from work again]

Finally someone who is "discussing" here. ty your post was really an exception. Okay: Its also true (when i have to say the U.S. supported the Taliban) that the U.S. gave the afghan Mudjaheddin Stingers and i guess also other stuff (except those stingers it was as ace said: they just gave the afghans some crappy old weaps they had to get rid off, and where enjoying to see the "evil" UDSSR having major troubles. This i dont really call "helpful" when we now look at those Taliban Bastards who are tyranning the whole afghan population in their controlled provences).

One IMPORTANT point (for all who should be interested): There where NO Taliban at all when the Mudjaheddin once fought against the Russian Agressors! The Taliban Movement appeared in the middle of the 90thies where the Soviets had retreated already. They "disarmed" the population by hiding behind their corrupted face of islam and told em they will bring peace and savety to the afghans (after 15 years of war!). Once they had the pop. disarmed they started to show their true face (but Pakistan and the U.S. still kept supporting em, cuz no one on this world gave a fukc on the afghans and their sufferings. We had just been useful idiots and chess-figures in another stupid cold-war conflict between U.S. and the former UDSSR. Btw.: Official US Spokesmen also said that was true. Cuz: "If we would have supported the North Alliance we would have been on the same side as Iran & Russia at this time" - so that was ONE of the reasons why they supported the Taliban. Clever eh? So thats why my thankfulness is not that amazing huge.)

Another fact: No afghan i talked to ever heared from a "bin laden" fighting against the russian during their occupation. I bet he was hiding his saudi-ass somewhere behind a rock and came out when they told him its over. Its annoying and makes me mad when now the fucking Taliban are called the liberators of afghanistan. Most Taliban are foreingers (and crazy idiots), they cant fight like real afghans, their leadership is weak, and their morale is a fake. If the Pakistani ISI and the U.S. would have had stopped their support to them earlier we would have already dealed with em. U will see in the news the next days what i mean. FINALLY we get enough support to deal with them one for once! We "true" afghans will avenge the death of our Shah Ahmed Massood AND the innocent victims in the U.S. Terror attacks! There is a reason why Bin Laden Asshole might really try to flee somewhere else now. He thought his assassination on Massood would desperate the Northern Alliance. But he just signed his own deathwish. But same fate will hit everyone who dares to use the lives of innocent afghan civilians for their dirthy "game" of power, wealth and sickness.

i must go back to work now - i could post endless here damn world has gone mad and people who where stupid before went dangerous crazy now. god (allah, or however u call the "almighty" is either on vacation or he doesnt care much lately) -

cheers

[jn.blackhand]

After hearing Bander's comments, that are hypocritical, racist, and most importantly idiotic, I can only say one thing:

I hope a missle intended for Bin Laden's camp gets redirected to your house.

Not only have I lost a lot of respect for the DAMN clan because of Bander, I've also lost respect for Afghanistan. I just hope that not all Afghanistans are as idiotic as Bander.

Not once did anyone imply that ALL Afghanistans were like Bin Laden, but we certainly did say that Afghanistan should not ever knowingly harbor a terrorist and do little to caapture him.

I only have problems with two groups of people in Afghanistan, the terrorists, and the anti-americans, who always cite the mistakes made by the US, but never mention ALL THE GOOD THAT THE USA HAS DONE FOR THE WORLD!

Bander's hatred of Americans is so typical. First and foremost, he's jealous. Secondly, he talks about all the mistakes USA has made over the years.

Well, at least we tried to do something good. At least we're pro-active. Whenever a country is hit by a national tragedy, the US sends over people and supplies. Whenever there is an evil threat to the world, the US is always the first to step in and try to resolve the issue.

I'm not saying the US hasn't made mistakes, because it has, but at least it DID SOMETHING.

Because of our pro-active nature, we always get the blame for any mishaps. We are hated by people everywhere.

In the end though, it's worth it. Because we tried and many times suceeded in maiking the world a better place, which is more than I can say for most countries.

As Vonnegut put it, he liked to have this more than anything on his tombstone, "He tried."

[Ace]

Blackhand, you suck. Leave something for me to say next time. (Except the missile comment. I think that went just a little too far) Bander, I would respond to many of the "points" you made, but the majority of it is falsified bullshit. US supporting the Taliban? What shit have you been smoking. Also, don't think that I am "a fat uneducated slob" because I took offense to that comment. I take offense to anyone trying to bash Americans in general just because they are ignorant, jealous bitches. BTW, I got an SAT of 1490, GPA always over 4.0, and an engineering scholarship to USC. I also got offers from water polo coaches at top level Ivy League schools. Kiss my educated, athletic ass.


Yes, I am fiercely patriotic, and I take that as a compliment. I love America more than you can imagine, but don't even fucking try to compare me to Hitler. I am not saying "Go burn all Afghans because we are a superior race". I said I would rather sacrifice the lives of the supporters of these terrorists and the Taliban rather than the lives of Americans. Might be racist, but I sure as hell value the lives of those fighting for freedom and liberty more than those fighting for terror and tyranny.


Finally, I bet many of you have seen this lately, but I think Bander and any other American bashers here need to see it. This was written by a Canadian in the 70's.

?America: The Good Neighbor.

?Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

?"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.?

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward as to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.?

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.?

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.?

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at.?

Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.?

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.?

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.?

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around.

?They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."?

Stand proud, America!"

I stand proud, just as the rest of my country has done. Bander, can you tell me the same?

[jn.loudnotes]

ace and blackie, you may take offense at some of Bander's anti-american postings, however, I believe you lack a certain perspective necessary to even begin to appreciate them.  Don't get me wrong, I love America just as much as you, but I do not do so blindly, I am patriotic despite our nation's faults.

Have either of you ever been to Europe and read a European newspaper?  I suggest you do this before you attempt to criticize any criticism of America.  You will understand far better the other viewpoints in this issue.  Why do you think Bush's conference in Europe earlier this year was considered so ineffective?  He lacks the perspective of an outsider, having never been outside the US before this year

If you analyze what Bander said and go beyond the inflammatory rhetoric, nothing he said was untrue.  I suggest you rethink your condemnation.

[jn.blackhand]

Loud, sigh. Please stop acting like you?re so novel and your perspective is infinitely clearer than Ace?s and mine.

Read my posts. I never once said the US was perfect. I agree with many of the points brought up where America has made mistakes. The US is not perfect. I won?t die for my country if it?s not a cause I believe in. However, I will defend my country against unfounded, anti-American, bullshit comments.

I?ve been to Europe. I?ve lived in different cultures. I can see when the USA has made a grave mistake. Tell me though, when did America make a mistake during this recent international tragedy. What did we do to deserve the slaughter of THOUSANDS of lives, both American and foreign? What did we do to deserve comments such as Bander?s that MIGHT hold some validity, but are too riddled with anti-American propaganda and insults?

The answer is nothing. Regardless of whatever mistakes the USA has made in the past and yes there have been some big ones, we, the world, did not deserve this. I shouldn?t have to read a news story about a mother who lost her son or the other way around, then come to the forum to here Bander insult me, members of this forum, and The United States Of America.

Any with any class whatsoever, would not rant on about the US?s idiocy (which is funny, considering the technology used in posting on this forum was pioneered and still dominated by American business?) and insult us at this time.

Criticism, I don?t mind. Personal attacks, racial slurs, I do mind.

So why did I say what I did about a missile hitting Bander?s home?

To prove a point. Ace implied that I was wrong. You implied that as well. Our patriotism has its limits. The comment was not right and you and I were able to recognize that.

Bander is unable to recognize the injustice of his comments. He condemns Ace for valuing American lives over other nations, yet it is obvious Bander could care less about Americans. He could care less about this whole situation. He condemns some for bashing Afghanis, then turns around and bashes Americans.

Maybe those last comments were a bit harsh, but I have NO reason to believe that he is different and I am wrong about him. I can only know Bander through his posts, and based on those posts I can only conclude that Bander is, well, an idiot who occasionally reads a newspaper.

He compares us to Hitler, yet just like Hitler, he can?t see how much of a hypocrite he is being. If he were truly so anti-American, he wouldn?t own a computer. He wouldn?t use the Internet. He wouldn?t go to the movie theater. He wouldn?t speak English. He?s just dumb, confused, and jealous. He hates me because of my nationality. Who?s like Hitler now?

----

Note 1: Bush is an idiot. He?s handled the current situation well, but is not at all what would call an ideal choice for the presidency (the results of the election reflect on this). That?s why his European campaign failed.

Note 2: Loud. You are no less blinded by patriotism then I am. The difference is that I will point out Bander?s idiocy. You will not. Again, I?m not saying all of what he said is idiotic, but a lot of it is.

Note 3: All of this is based on Bander?s posts. That is all the material and knowledge I have of him and until he proves otherwise, he?ll be infinitely lower than Romulus, peekay, and all the idiots.

[postmaster]

Reading through these forums, I am deeply dismayed. I largely agree with Ace, Grifter and Blackhand and have to say one thing, SHAME ON YOU BANDER. You are a hopeless unfortunate soul who is like a race horse - you have you blinders on and can only see one P.O.V. Sure, I sympathize with you when you are upset that you think that all Americans want the blood of Afghans running in the streets but you are terribly misguided.

A) comparing the U.S. to Nazi Germany was the dumbest thing I have ever heard of in my life. Sure, we consider ourselves superior, only because we are. The Nazi's went so far as to call themselves "aryans" and slaughter the innocent. Correct me if I am wrong, but isnt the United States the most diversified country on this planet?

B) The Afghan citizens better be praying to their God, (Allah or whoever they believe in) that a target is not located by their homes. With Three Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups positioned to attack and heavy bombers ready in Turkey, there will be blood shed. I can only hope that we don't kill many civilians, but as mentioned above, in every war, there will be innocent casualties, over 6000+ Americans so far...

C) Bander, if you are truly an Afghan of the Northern Alliance, shut your fucking fly trap. You should praise the U.S., not bash them. By the time we are done bombing the hell out of the Taliban army and the Al Qaeda bases, the rightful gov't will soon be back in power. Instead, you rant your mouth like a typical peace loving bitch, calling for diplomacy and what not. It is time for action, diplomacy is OVER.

D) thank you Ace for bringing up the patriots fighting for their country, for I have dealt with a similar experience but worse - my relatives never came back from war. Grandfather KIA at Midway, Uncle killed in a P.O.W. camp in Pyongyang, and a cousin who was killed in Vietnam. I will never let the freedom they fought and died for slip away because of acts of cowardice. The U.S. military has always fought for Freedom and Justice, and those who say otherwise, i say FUCK YOU.
-Peace out

[Ace]

Blackhand has said this too, and I would like to affirm it: America is not perfect. But at the same time, I would like to point out that it's still the greatest nation on earth. Where else could the son of an immigrant have the oppurtunity to become the leader of the free world? Where else could the daughter of a low income single mother have the oppurtunity to get a world class education. For hundreds of years, people have aspired to come to America for these reasons and more. Today, we are the most diverse nation in the world. I am not blinded my patriotism - I am empowered by it.

Loud, Bander's posts are littered with falsitiies. For example, "when i have to say the U.S. supported the Taliban" The US never support nor recognized the Taliban. There are many others, but it would take too long to point 'em all out. Also, I was in France this summer and read French newspapers and watched French TV. So I have a pretty good idea of some other viewpoints. For the most part, the other countries are highly jealous of our power and position. I think the EU is totally hilarious; they are essentially trying to make themselves into a United States of Europe so to speak. Imitation is the highest form of flattery. As far as Bush goes, I don't believe he or anyone else could have handled this situation any better. Every day I am more and more proud for having stuck by him since the beginning.

Postmaster, I am so very sorry to here that. I am lucky enough that none of my family members were killed (especially my grandfather or else I wouldn't be here today) Sadly, you are not alone. Many other Americans have lost loved ones who served our country valiantly. As you know very well, it is sickening to think that the freedom, liberty, and justice these men gave their lives for is being abused today. All these people bashing America and it's ideals are like flag burners on steroids and then some. My first and strongest impulse is to knock their face in with a 2x4.

As I did before, I must end with:
I stand proud, just as the rest of my country has done. Bander, can you tell me the same?

[dave-s]

I think that maybe this thread is getting a little out of hand, I think that people should have been carefull in what they had said on what is a subject that has affected not only the US but also many countries throughout the world, how many people from the Europe and Asia died in the attack?

Everyone is agreed on the fact that a single group and their helpers/defenders has caused this and that they alone should be punished not innocents, I think collateral damage is bollocks buts thats out of our hands and up to our governments soldiers. Saying that if I had to be classed as collateral damage to save my friends and family Id accept that.

Oh and Blackhand the computer was created in Manchester UK and the English came from............. England

Sorry just winding people up now.

Anyway heres to getting the wankers involved and everyone else being fine.

[Bander vcvcvds]

Blackhand: I dont hate u cuz u are american - i just hate you cuz u are a violent - brainless - nationalist, whose stupid comments arent really worth arguing with.
Send me your funny missle - yeah - u clown, this is a typical reaction of militant assholes (even when he meant it as "joke") when they run out of arguments: Violence!

Ace: U are just what i said. U can deny for yourself that the U.S. supported the Taliban but that wont change the facts. And people who refuse to see the truth are always sticking together their phantasy-truth then.

U and your gang of  warheads try (again) to move my comments to an "anti-american" spot. LOL. This is really cheap. U ignore when i say most of my relatives are americans (afghan americans) since more than 30 years or born there (cali) - cuz it seems u dont see them as americans too but as "Stans". You cant devide one wrongdoing from another. You claim u are on the side of justice but only call for bombs and when it comes to OTHER countries killing civilians suddenly is "not avoidable" (at the same time u claim there must be war to AVENGE other civilian deaths).

LOL - one of u apes said im like a race horse which is just running on the track and ignoring everything going on aside. And i would just "sometimes" read  the news.
If u ask Mauti he will back that i am ALWAYS informed very well about recent political ongoings and due to my huge inetrest to politics i can compare actual issues with past historical happenings. (At last i try).

Listen u "heroes":
Its easy for u to hide behind the whole bunch of anti-moslemic people here on "my" forums or on GR cuz u are not alone - one warmonger is backing the comments of the other (when i deliver political facts, you bash em aside and answer some patriotic bullshit instead). As far as i am see i am the ONLY representor of the afghan or the mulsim culture here - so i feel RESPONSIBILITY to answer on your murderous, stupid, uninformed and propaganda blinded comments. Blackhand, Ace and all others of that kind:
I feel unable to argue with u cuz ur brains are blocked with "Either he?s pro U.S. or hes a Terrorist". U may be surprised: I am neither (100%) Pro-U.S. and also not a terrorist. So what am i then? (i am not even 100% pro austria, and also only 5% pro afghanistan). Maybe u live in a world nicely divided into black and white. But i am making greyscales also. And by doing this i already admitted "to be positive surprised by the U.S. goverment so far". I have NO problem at all with the Bush Administration so far. They really seem to think before they will act (even when rational thinking is hard after such an tragedy).

Loud Notes: Tnx for trying to show me your friendship here but i would suggest to better keep u neutral,
or u will be moved into the anti-U.S./Traitor corner too by those assholes. We can discuss in emails about this when something changes but its senceless to share our thoughts with braindead idiots like some of my "old friends" here.

[Bander P.S.:]

Ah yes:

Blackhand: It really doesnt interest me a bit if u lost respect for *DAMN or all your respect for me. I dont respect morons of your kind so keep that shit for yourself. The mayority of the *DAMNs are U.S. mates, and as many people know *DAMN is a clan of r6 vets who are bounded together with "friendship"! Now cuz u are hating me u spill sirth over whole *DAMN. Its just the same like u act toward afghan citizen now. One bad - all bad. Hahaha - i just have to wait to any of ur dumb replys to get proof to most what i said about u.

AND IDIOTS please:
Check it: I just compared ACE, BLACKHAND and the other members of the "Core of the american race" with Nazi-Thoughts. So i compared THEM to that and for sure NOT the american nation (nice try again fukcers).
By talking such crap like "mericans are more worth than others" etc. u can say what u want: This IS Nazi Propaganda! And if there is one thing that i hate more than blind nationalism its nazism! (same roots).

ATTENTION ALL:
I am NOT an anti-american
I am NOT an terrorist
I did NOT compare the U.S. Nation to the Nazi Regime (just two of their stupiedst citizens: ace, black and people like them)
i AM a democratic european who?s dad is afghan

So Ace and ur froggy friends: Its interesting how u try to gimme the view of an U.S. enemy here. When u claim u have the right to defend your country everywhere on this world u will have to accept that afghans will defend their soil too if foreign powers should bomb their civilians. If not u are just BIGGER nerds than i already thought.
Listen what Bush says about afghanistan and learn out of that. Bush (who i didnt like before) earned lot of my respect  the last days - and since they informed themself about afghanistan their plan there i say is clever. (but maybe u didnt watch american news the last 2 days - so u might lack a little behind - as usually.)