Peace Protests

[tasty]

Yes, I agreed that street blocking does not get the message through. I also agreed that violence is an inappropriate and illogical way to protest violence.  As far as this Mr. Wuggles person, you are ignorant. How can it be argued that the protesters are not protesting war? This doesn't make any sense at all. Yes, most probably are anti-Bush, since his policies directly conflict with policies that they think should be implemented. It's pretty stupid to say they are anti-America; they just have a different idea of what America should stand for and what its policies should be than you do. There are socialists/communists that protest, but I think most of them have a different idea of government than you probably associate with communism/socialism, and they make up a small minority of the total protesters.

Bucc, in high school I took the same amount of stuff as you. In 4 years I took 14 semesters of social studies (10 of which were history), and more than 8 semesters of everything except math, which I elected not to take senior year.

[Cossack]

The Peace protests are fine, blocking streets during non-commute hours (like they did in Austin) isnt all that bad. If it was in rush hour than it would be bad, but we did it at like 10:00 PM on a weekday. Anyhow I attended the protests because they are in my view a historical event. I am more there as a documenter than a protester. This could go down as the biggest anti-war movement since Vietnam, who knows it could even become larger. I will have a photo documentary and maybe even a film documentary. Mr. Wuggles, your arguments are bullshit. You have to be the most ignorant person that I have ever met. You have taken 8 American social studies courses? Wow thats saying alot, you learned where Iraq is on a map yet? I really dont like saying this, but I am such a superior human being than you. So is 90% of the world.

[kami]

Haha Coss, I'm inclined to agree to that about Wuggles.

I think protesting is pretty lame, it doesn't affect anyone imo. And anyway there are protesters and there are protesters, you shouldn't mix the anarchists and commies up into the same bunch as the more peaceful protesters who have better arguments and sounder opinions. And Coss, this worldwide anti-war movement is bigger than the one against the Vietnam war, probably because of the internet that makes coordinating things like these much easier.

[abe]

The problem i have with the war-protestors, whether it is in the streets, my classes or on these boards, is that they are willing to ignore all of the evil things saddam has done and continues to do to his people. At the time of the last gulf war, the same protesters were saying saddam is a good guy, just misunderstood, and that he is not really a threat to his own people......today they agree he is a bad guy and horrible for iraq, but claim he is in no way dangerous to anyone outside of iraq. Tell me, what will it take for these people to wake up?? another iran-iraq war? an iraqi attack on israel? on the us, maybe?

the huge contradiction in the peace-camp discourse is that they claim to be acting in the name of the iraqi people, when everyone except the worst of the murdering baath-party scumbags, who know they will have to pay a heavy price for what they have been to iraq for the past 30 years, cant wait for saddam to be gone so they can get on with their lives. now matter how noble the protesters intentions, the fact is that they are defending an ruthless and brutal totalitarian state. and guess what else: saddam couldnt wish for anything better than naive western college students etc., who are willing to go on the street to defend his bloody, despotic regime.

the point mr. wubbles was making (although he did so in the most 13yr-old way possible) is that for the majority of the protesters, this isnt about iraq specifically, but about denouncing american hegemony on world affairs and taking a stance against bush the noob. very few if any of the protesters really care about iraq, they just wanna tell the US to sod off. and i agree with that all the way. i am personally in favor of the war because of what i know about iraq and saddam hussein, not because of what i think of the US. its too bad that a lot of people do the opposite.

btw: is mr. wubbles a right-wing clone of Zaitsev? they sound exactly the same, except for the democrat republican thing.

[Mr.Wuggles]

hey freedom of speech coss its your opinion.... have i opressed your opinion yet? i think not. peace protests are hurtful whether its the right cause or not. i think the ppl should support the president in his time of need. also the troops need. ppl if you dont like what i say tune to radio station 1490 am

rush limbah is superiour to everyone in this whole entire thread and he would agree with me

and i think hollywood protesters have a right to their protests. but alot of them are just stupid and have no college education such as Cher that dropped out in 9th grade

if you dont like what i say fine but i dont go around bein an ass and say im superiour

[kami]

Ok, you like Rush Limbaugh, the most conservative asshole out there, great. You're obviously filled with more propaganda than Jesus.

What the US did wrong is that they went in too early, if they had waited a bit longer, maybe Blix had been able to complete his job, who would expect him to complete the weapons inspections in three months?

[Mr.Wuggles]

Tell me ppl what am I spossed to think, becuase ppl are saying that I am not a person that complies under freedom of speech.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

(Although it seems analogous to fighting a war in Iraq to prevent possible future war.)  .

LOL, that's exactly one of the reasons its so stupid of them.  They are doing what they are protesting against.  They are validating the other side.

Anyway, what about stopping streets?  That seems like one of the best forms of protest to me - it inconveniences without causing any severe lasting harm.  If you're trying to make a statement, what a great way to do it without burning, killing, or mutilating.

First, who are they to inconvenience the rest of us?  It's ok for them to infringe upon our civil rights in any way?  Sure, it's not burning me, but it's still violating my rights.  Why is it ok for them?  Look at it this way, is it ok for a bunch of people supporting the war to come and stop you in traffic for an hour or two?  Ok for them to ruin your day in the park?  It sure isn't ok for me.  They can demonstrate without even minor violations of my liberty just fine.

Second, how about the ambulance that can't get through the traffic.  You know, the one stuck a mile or so down the road, that they don't see.  What about the person in that ambulance that is in need of care, but has to go 15 minutes out of its way to get to the hospital because Michigan Ave is blocked for 4 miles?  How about the guy driving his pregnant wife there while she's in labor?  What about the police on their way to help someone?  Or a fire truck?  No, seconds and minutes don't save lives, do they?  Well, if seconds and minutes save lives, then blocking traffic risks lives.  Far from harmless.

Not that this seems to matter to so many of the protesters.  Their message is more important then the law, my civil rights, or the health and safty of someone else.  Oh, wait, isn't that the same attitude they are protesting!  That's a great way to protest something, adopt it for yourselves.  Idiots.

Now why would I listen to idiots?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Ok, you like Rush Limbaugh, the most conservative asshole out there, great. You're obviously filled with more propaganda than Jesus.

Like that isn't the pot calling the kettle black.

What the US did wrong is that they went in too early, if they had waited a bit longer, maybe Blix had been able to complete his job, who would expect him to complete the weapons inspections in three months?

11 years, not three months.  11 years.  Fuck three months.  The UN has been impotent about this for a decade, so stop acting like this was rash.

It's one thing to say other things should have been tried, but the UN inspections haven't been worth shit in a decade.  And they only had any success AFTER the USA was rattling it's saber.

Notice that the chemical plant that the US forces discovered today were nowhere on the UN inspectors lists at all.  Fuck, why they gave the Iraqi lists and schedules in the first place shows what a joke it was.

[Cossack]

Many of the large protests are planned and approved by the city. The EMS services are notified, and traffic delay signs are put up through on the whole route. The city prepares for protests, and now a days the protests are so large that sidewalks cant hold all of them. Hell why not ban Mardi Gras it blocks Bourbon street. I can see if the protests happened everyday it would be a problem that needs to be addressed. As for vomiting on the street, dispicable. Rioting is uncalled for and only the most zealous anarchists consider it. I cant say how people feel in bigger protest cities like New York City and San Francisco, but the protests here in Austin, Texas cause a 5 min delay.
Wuggles, knowing that you have very near similar beleifs of Rush Limbaugh only shows more so how ignorant you are. The man is confused with over nationalistic propoganda. You know who else was as over nationalistic as him? Hitler! Thank god he holds no political power.

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

Keep in mind I live in Texas. Education in the North is a lot different than education in the South. Not to mention Texas is experiencing major budget problems especially in the state education funds. Thousands of teachers have lost their jobs. The only classes we were required to take in high school were one year of U.S. History, one year of World History, Government/Economics. That's it. U.S. History focused mainly on the U.S. and its progress during its growing years. World History focused on Egyptians, Russians, Incans, Aztecs, Greece, and mostly the Roman Empire. Government/Economics was a joke.

Personally, I believe it depends on the teacher and the school district's committee that handles what's taught in school.

The current situation in Texas public schools is quite sad.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Many of the large protests are planned and approved by the city. The EMS services are notified, and traffic delay signs are put up through on the whole route. The city prepares for protests, and now a days the protests are so large that sidewalks cant hold all of them.

Cossack, if the protesters gave that notice all the time (they didn't in Chicago or San Francisco), and if they stayed on their routes, I'd accept what you are saying a bit more.  But even when they are planned, as in New York, the protesters quickly left the planned route, didn't they?  Spilled off onto the other streets, and blocked the alternate routs as well.

Protest, by all means.  But if you are going to have a peace demonstration, make it all about peace, the in your face aggressiveness of some of them just makes me laugh at how stupid they can be.  Not because they believe in peace, but because they pretend to believe in something they don't completely understand or think out.

[kami]

Bucc, sure it's been a problem for a long time but that doesn't mean you shouldn't follow what you started with the 1441 resolution.

[Precious Roy at work]

You guys are attacking protesting by attacking specific protesters, which is ridiculous.  People need to voice their opinion, and this is a perfectly good way to do so.  Yes they should get permits, and yes they should follow their routes, and, I hasten to add, most do.  So there are a few bad apples in the bunch, a few unplanned protests, whatever.  Those specific groups/people are in the wrong, but the practice itself is not at fault.

Wuggles, I am not going to claim that I am "superiour". (Though I will claim better grammar and spelling skills)  However, for god sakes, make your posts a little more informed and less inane.  At least most people here do, no matter how crazy their opinion is.

And now, a rare moment in forum history: I agree with Buccaneer! Somewhat, at least.  Weapons inspections would have failed again, and again, and again.  The only way to get Saddam out of power is force.  Some people don't understand diplomacy, it's quite obvious.  HOWEVER! We should have done this in '91, '94, or '98, or at some point in the future, when we had a fucking reason to!  We should at least have UN approval.  Sure the French are crazy, but when Germany does not support our war?  Then we should reconsider.

The Bush administration (and yes, it is the administration, not the country as a whole) has started a war unilaterally, under the flimsiest of pretences.  And that's something I just can't support.

Also, when will people learn that protesting the war and supporting the troops are not mutually exclusive ideas?  It's so frustrating to see such ignorance.  

Example: My mother and father both participated in Vietnam war protests. At the time they were a 1st Lieutenant and a Captain, respectivly, in the United States Army. (Volunteers, not draftees.)  Can you honestly tell me that they did not support the troops, when they were the troops?

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

Obviously Rush spews conservative propaganda because he absolutely hates crying heart liberals and their left wing butt buddies.

http://homepage.mac.com/pyrex1/radio.mp3

Listen to this. It a radio broadcast from a Seattle station. You'll like it.

That's the 3rd time you've posted this Py.  It's nice, we listened to it.  It even drew comments.  But enough!

[|MP|Buccaneer]

You guys are attacking protesting by attacking specific protesters, which is ridiculous.  

I think I've made it clear that I'm only talking about the bad apples.  That I'm all for peoples rights to protest.  My argument with Loud was about how the "bad apples" hurt their cause more then they help it, and seem very stupid.

HOWEVER! We should have done this in '91, '94, or '98, or at some point in the future, when we had a fucking reason to!  We should at least have UN approval.  Sure the French are crazy, but when Germany does not support our war?  Then we should reconsider.

I agree, it should have happened long ago.  We (UN and USA) waited too long.  Part of that I blame on the previous administration too.  Clinton should have applied much more pressure on Iraq and the UN over it.  Instead he only brought up Iraq when he had to draw attention away from domestic issues (*cough*Monica*cough*Whitewater*cough*).  Sorry, had to clear my throat there =D.  He really did that beautifully though.  Whenever the heat got too high, Saddam would "act up" just enough to require attention.  

Anyway, Yes, we should have acted long ago.  But here's my problem with waiting.  If you agree force would always be necessary, why wait and let him grow stronger?  Yes, UN support would have been best.  But France alone could have held that up for years to come.  

As for Germany, didn't their current chancellor win it's elections in opposition to Bush?  Being anti-Bush was part of his platform, wasn't it?  So I don't put much faith in that kind of opinion.  

BTW, why do people keep leaving out the Aussies?  I keep hearing USA & UK.  What about the Aussies?  They are right there in the thick of it too.

One other note for the protesters.  Seems that public opinion shifted in the UK this week.  The majority there now seem to back military action.

Also, when will people learn that protesting the war and supporting the troops are not mutually exclusive ideas?? It's so frustrating to see such ignorance.?

Example: My mother and father both participated in Vietnam war protests. At the time they were a 1st Lieutenant and a Captain, respectivly, in the United States Army. (Volunteers, not draftees.)? Can you honestly tell me that they did not support the troops, when they were the troops?  

Nope, I'm in complete agreement with you on this point.  They don't have to be exclusive at all.  But people on both sides seem to think so.  As I pointed out, my father and uncles participated in Vietnam as well.  And were spit upon and called names by protesters at the time.  This is a problem that cuts both ways.  Stupid people will lump them all together, because it's all their minds can fathom.

[Destructo]

This is how peace protesters stand.

Do you ever notice that these protesters never start a protest in the morning? Do you know why? Because these idiots don't get up until 2pm in the afternoon. They haven't worked a hard day in their lives.

Half these hippies have no jobs, and the smoke so much reefer they are the reason that there is a drug smuggling problem in the states. Their all a bunch of hypocrites, b/c they protest for peace yet they throw rocks and bricks at riot police. If they were in any other country, they would be mowed down at the knees by a minigun.

I have not read any of the other posts on this forum, b/c it's a novel and I am at work and don't have the time.

But that's how I stand on those gay protesters. If it was any of their family members that died at 9/11, i gaurentee you they'd be gun ho with an iron fist.

Stop doing the "politically correct" thing and get some common sense. If you don't go in and fight, they are just going to kill you first, no matter who you are, and where your views stand.

I need gas for my car, so hurry up and take over the oil.

[KoS Ultimo]

I need gas for my car, so hurry up and take over the oil.

Well DAMN, that's the first smart thing someone has said in a while !

[Mr.Wuggles]

Yes, gas stations are bad enough why do we need this crackpot Saddam is beyond me.

[kami]

Three words destructo, what the fuck. Your world view is totally warped, just as an example, there are more demonstrations going on in the rest of the world than in the US.