Quality of Life and Suicide

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Just wanted to touch on something from a while back.  Bucc has often said, if the quality of life is better in Europe (as I've stated with support from the UN), why are the suicide rates higher.  He maintains that suicide is an indication of quality of life.  I'd like to disagree and propose that suicide in this case is an indication of spirtuality.  The US is much more religious than most of Europe.  The more religious someone is the more they would fear the damnation that comes with suicide acording to most Christian interpretation.  As Europe doesn't have as much of this, they just have less hesitations about suicide.  They aren't killing themselves because they have a worse quality of life, they are killing themselves because they have some sort of issue and less holding them back from doing it.

Another thing to dispute that suicides are tied with poor quality of life.  Most suicides that I've heard of have more to do with mental illness than social hardship.  As such many of the people committing suicide are in middle class standing with fine quality of life.

These two things together make me strongly question the use of suicide to claim that the US has higher quality of life.

[*NADS Capt. Anarchy]

Yes, but if their lack of religion/spirituality leads them to a place where they beleive suicide is their only option, that lack would have subtracted from their quality of life, wouldn't it?

Religion doesn't always contribute to someone quality of life, but it does generally give someone a feeling of belonging or place in this world. Without that, quality of life would degenerate, along with ones mood/happiness level. That's not saying you can't be happy without religion. Just that many religious people are comfortable knowing that there's a why for everything.

[Ace]

Bah, it's probably just because most of the Euros (cough *frenchies* cough) have a definite lack of testicular fortitude. Suicide is a rather vagina way to get out of a shitty situation.

[Cossack]

I also dont think that the Europeans have that as many psychological institutions as we do.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Bah, it's probably just because most of the Euros (cough *frenchies* cough) have a definite lack of testicular fortitude. Suicide is a rather vagina way to get out of a shitty situation.

You know, I never see the outrage for your bigoted comments, yet when Bander makes them people are all over him.

But Capt.  Religion isn't a technical quality of life factor in such that it would go into a decision of which nation has higher quality of life.  It may indeed make people less prone for depression or whatnot, but it isn't really related to living standards.

[jn.loudnotes]

My guess it's it's the language barrier.  Ace's bigotism is actually a little funny, whereas Bander's would be more funny to you if you were more familiar with his culture.  Either way, it's not the best attitude for anyone - but that's a subjective judgement.  My guess is that neither Bander nor Ace feel the way they say publicly about EVERY Frenchman or American.  If they do, I've seriously overestimated them both.  It may be true that a majority of each race is just as described though.  

On to the topic - Suicide is, in my belief, almost always an irrational thing to do.  That should be apparent enough to those of us who aren't contemplating it at the moment.  Thus it doesn't really make sense to apply a logical comparison of quality of life, or religous devotion, to someone who is forswearing everything.  Life is immaterial - it doesn't matter any more, so it isn't really a factor.  Maybe there's something about European life that leads more people to think irrationally, but suicide itself is something you can't rationalize.

[*NADS Capt. Anarchy]

But Capt.  Religion isn't a technical quality of life factor in such that it would go into a decision of which nation has higher quality of life.  It may indeed make people less prone for depression or whatnot, but it isn't really related to living standards.

Not a technical, but it does have a great deal to do with the mood of a person. Same with relationships, breakups, family deaths, etc. I guess it more improves their mood than their quality of life.

[tasty]

While illogical, I would actually say it's pretty ballsy to kill yourself. Either you have complete confidence in an afterlife, you are willing to risk it, or you are so reckless you don't care what happens after you die. If someone committing suicide has actually seriously contemplated these options,<SARCASM> I'm impressed at the amazingly large size of the testicles they must have, since courage is a purely male phenomenon and there is no way that females could ever have any, the fucking whores.</SARCASM>

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Killing yourself is spineless, regardless of whatever Race, Religion, or Creed the person is. Suicide is for those who can no longer cope with life's issues so they pick the easy way out and kill themselves.

The only "suicide" that I would ever condone is of the terminally ill who have nothing to live for and have the express support of their extended family.

[kami]

There are two angles to suicide and courage, firstly there's the fact that you've gotta be pretty brave to actually do it, I'd be too god damn scared to do it, maybe my testicles are just too small. Then the other angle is that if you commit suicide, you've not been brave enough to meet your problems in life face to face...

Back to what Bondo said, I don't think you can generalize that there are more suicides in Europe than in the US, take Sweden, we don't have that many suicides per capita here. Also it has to do with cultures, some cultures accept suicide more than other, for example the Japanese with the feudalistic tradition of commiting Harakiri when you've lost your honor... I'd say the Japanese have a pretty god damn high quality of life generally.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Well, Bucc was the one generalizing Europe as higher before, and it is indeed true that most of the other developed countries have higher suicide rates (but when you add homicides in the US is ahead...that is the chart I got my information for before).  Given there was some discrepincies in what nations were listed.  But yes, the Japanese example is certainly valid.  The near acceptance of suicide makes it much less of a risk.

Anyway, I still take great issue with Ace and Sin.  Suicide is mostly a issue of mental illness.  To make fun of those who commit suicide for being cowards you are making fun of those with mental illness.  I find that sickening.

Tasty, I'd say those that kill themselves either think they will go to a good place dispite killing themselves, or they think there is no afterlife, if there is no punishment, then why not end the pain that is life.  The only people that I would see are the ones that believe they go to hell if they commit suicide.  Those would be the heavily religious ones.

Either way, I think it's been confirmed by most of you that, regardless of what your view of those committing suicide is, it doesn't really have much to do with quality of life and can't really be used to make an argument that one country is better than another in quality of life.

[kami]

Oh, I did not intend for it to sound like all the people who commited suicide were mentally sane.

[Ace]

Anyway, I still take great issue with Ace and Sin.  Suicide is mostly a issue of mental illness.  To make fun of those who commit suicide for being cowards you are making fun of those with mental illness.  I find that sickening.

Well I find it sickening that someone would take their life just because life isn't going well for them. That is an extreme act of cowardice as it is nothing more than sticking your tail between your legs and running from life. There are a lot of people who have real problems and a lot of them don't off themselves because they don't think they can handle it.

[*DAMN Mauti]

The US is much more religious than most of Europe.

Lol that's the funniest thing I have ever heard Bondo. Why do you think so? I would say it is the opposite. The US is only more patriotic but that's obviously something different.

Furthers I think you have to examine which people commit suicide and at which age? I.e. many guys in Austria commit suicide when they are in the Army - not because the Army is that bad - because it gives them a chance to commit suicide.

All in all I would say you can't predict who commits suicide and why simply because suicide is a phenomenon that happens in all classes at almost all ages.

Bye,

Mauti

[kami]

Well I find it sickening that someone would take their life just because life isn't going well for them. That is an extreme act of cowardice as it is nothing more than sticking your tail between your legs and running from life. There are a lot of people who have real problems and a lot of them don't off themselves because they don't think they can handle it.

That is such a stupid statement, suicides are almost always the long term effects of deep depressions, problems in life might trigger the depression but you can't say it's because of cowardice or lack of courage to stand up to your problems.

[jn.blacky]

"The US is much more religious than most of Europe."

um. no. furthermore, the actual worship in europe is very devout, whereas in america, as a whole, it is not.

[Ace]

Well I find it sickening that someone would take their life just because life isn't going well for them. That is an extreme act of cowardice as it is nothing more than sticking your tail between your legs and running from life. There are a lot of people who have real problems and a lot of them don't off themselves because they don't think they can handle it.

That is such a stupid statement, suicides are almost always the long term effects of deep depressions, problems in life might trigger the depression but you can't say it's because of cowardice or lack of courage to stand up to your problems.

Just because it is a long term problem doesn't make at any less cowardly. Suicide is taking your life because there is something causing you too much grief or pain. Rather than face that grief or pain head on, you take your life so you don't have to deal with it anymore. That sounds pretty damn cowardly to me.

[cookie]

Well, Bucc was the one generalizing Europe as higher before

However, you also generalize America, perhaps in greater amounts than bucc does other places... so i don't think this is much of an issue. Everyone generalizes..

You know, I never see the outrage for your bigoted comments, yet when Bander makes them people are all over him.

Well, for one most of the people who post on here anymore are american, that may have something to do with it. Also, banders comments are, sadly, more inflammatory imo. Yes Ace makes cracks about the french here and there, similar to the americans being fat thing (which everyone has come to overlook now for the most part) but bander's comments tend to be a bit more offensive, or at least the ones i've seen. Recently he told me to eat shit or something, that wasn't cool.


anyway, generally about suicide, i can see both sides. I used to think suicide was noble and if i wanted to do it, it was my life and my choice. Over time I grew out of it and even though I still believe it is a matter of opinion and choice, it is in some way wrong. By killing yourself and your presence in the world around you, you've taken something away from the people you currently know, and the people you would have known. I won't say it's spineless because I don't believe that's the right way to approach it, and you can't really catagorize the act because everybody has their reasons.. but i see aces reasons for saying it. In america we have relatively good standards of life yet we have a higher suicide rate than that in third world, suffering countries. You would think people there would feel the need to escape the pain more than we would, but I think our socities have made suicide more acceptable somehow. People in other countries feel the need to live on and survive, whereas life and preservation has been devalued in more developed countries/areas such as the US and Europe. We need more work ethic and family values.

Anyone interested in this topic should read foucalt.. really good stuff about suicide.

[jn.loudnotes]

Cookie, he told you to eat Burger King I think.  But Ace isn't insulting anyone here in particular.  Bander is insulting Americans, you're American, and thus you're more offended than you would be over someone bashing a Frenchman.

Frankly, what is the point of all this?  You're dead.  Who cares if you're a coward or fool or role-model for your actions?  If you kill yourself, that's it.  No more you.  Period.  End of story.  Forget the epilogue, it doesn't matter.  That's why, to a logical person, it seems exceedingly pointless.  For most people, they'll be gone in 70 or so years anyway, what's the rush?

Oh, and to douf - it depends a lot on where you are in USA or Europe.  Here in the Bible Belt we have plenty of evangelical freaks, errrm, I mean devout people. . .whereas parts of Europe can be quite heathen.  (and vice versa)

[cookie]

Specifically, he told me to take my fat ass to burger king and eat shit. and yeah, i mentioned the whole being american thing playing a factor, but i don't think thats the only reason i find bander offensive. I mean sure, the things ace says sometimes would be mildly, at best, offensive to a french person. it's mostly ha ha small testicle jokes or something, things that have existed pre war times (only recently they've been revived). They're as common as europeans sayign americans are fat, or lazy.. something of the like. While these things are mildly nationalistic/xenophobic, whatever, bander kind of goes beyond that, disregarding the fact im american. He's beyond ace's nationalist wisecracks, he's downright militant and severely anti american. if he came on the forums and started talking about how he hated israel, etc.. i'd likely have the same appalled reaction.