The Maryland sniper

[Deadeye]

mr mellow, fuck off with the retarded remark.  i don't know where you live, but here, the news last week was all about the video from the pizza shop where it was robbed, and after giving up the money, they killed the three workers there, in cold blood.

it isn't retarded to think that this shit happens.  because all you have to do is watch the news to see it (at least in detroit).

if these assholes were smart and rational, they wouldn't be robing a gas station / liquor store / pizza place in the first place.  

and, as many of you will find out, when you first get out of college, and get a job in the city, and have tens of thousands of dollars of student loans to pay off, you may HAVE to live in the shitty part of town.  Most people don't live in their parents basement, they go do it on their own.  moving away from it isn't always an option, not right away.  five of us lived in that house.  even the guy that was against guns in college started learning to shoot with us.  it was the smart thing to do.

[Mr.Mellow]

Deadeye, that's a pretty rare occurance, around where I live anyways. All I was trying to say that in an armed robbery, you're better off cooperating then trying to take them out. Provoking and/or shooting at them isn't going to better the situation, yanno? And Bucc, sorry about the retarded comment, I was just kind of surprised by what you said. I really don't have anything against people owning guns, but I was just trying to make a point that some irresponsible people would make a few wrong decisions during an armed robbery, and pretty much throw gasoline onto the fire. When someone has a gun already aimed at you, it's dangerous and stupid to pull out a gun and try to stop them, no matter how sneaky you are. The best thing to do is just give them the money, and once they leave, get out your pen and write down everything you can remember about them, and call the police. It's better to lose money then try to be a hero and lose your life. Now, I know some people have successfully stopped an armed robbery, but a lot of people have been killed or seriously injured trying to as well. Anyways, that's just my opinion. In Florida, I've never heard of anyone getting shot and killed when they didn't cooperate in a robbery. Like I said earlier, most (I know there are a few exceptions) robbers are just trying to get the money and leave as fast as possible.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Mellow, apology accepted.  And it's not that rare around here for the crooks to shoot without any reason.  Detroit wasn't the murder capital of the world for a decade for nothing.

Robbers aren't smart (not here).  Often they are drugged out as well.  You would think that it's obvious that they wouldn't want to make things worse, in many ways, that shooting someone would do.  Problem is, the crooks don't seem to feel that way (imagine talking logic with Bondo, the crooks just aren't wired to understand it).

And people that just pull out guns and start shooting at people they think are crooks, are criminals (and dumbasses) themselves, and are punished around here (and universially, I think).  But (and I mean an Opra sized BUT), if people tend to be armed (like in our ever popular and overused example of Texas), it gives crooks much more to think about.  A crook is afraid of a gun, as much as anyone.  So, crooks are less likely to pull a gun when they think that others will be able to pull one back (be it bystanders or shopkeepers).  This is born out by the fact that there are just less attempts at gun related crimes in areas with more guns (see Texas).

Think of everyone owning and carring hand guns as the micro cold war.  If one side has the ability to  destroy the other, and knows that both will be destroyed in the process, everyone is less likely to push that button (or pull that trigger).  The fact that the criminals are the ones with the guns is their advantage.  They use that advantage everyday.  They count on the advantage.  I say, take that advantage away.

[Bondo]

You act like the cold war was a good thing...and I suppose in your example the USSR is the criminals?  Sorry, I'd rather have the minute threat of terrorism (now) then constant fear (the Cold War/Texas).

Getting back to this Maryland Sniper issue, I had a chilling revolation today while watching the news report...I am an avid reader of James Patterson and his Alex Cross series is about a Washington D.C. detective who must track down different serial killers.  Each one has it own M.O. to make the books varied but often it has interaction or a game between the killer and Cross.  I just think it is strangely similar...almost as if this guy wants to make a real life Alex Cross novel.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

You act like the cold war was a good thing...and I suppose in your example the USSR is the criminals?  Sorry, I'd rather have the minute threat of terrorism (now) then constant fear (the Cold War/Texas).

Since I lived through the cold war, and you didn't, I'll consider your opinion pretty much worthless.  All the cold war was to you is some pages in a history book.  We were not afraid all the time.  I'm much more worried about terrorist then I ever was about nukes being used.  And my point wasn't to put either side in the bad light (I leave that to whichever side you were on).  My point had only to do with the great deterent.  The death penelty isn't a deterrent (it doesn't work), everyone having guns, is (it does work).

[Mr.Mellow]

I can kinda understand your point of view now Bucc, but there still needs to be a way to keep dumbasses from getting their hands on guns. I guess that'll be unlikely, cuz if criminals can get guns, idiots can too. The one thing that concerns me is that arguments could get out of control(especially if they people are drunk), and then guns come out, and the shit hits the fan.

[Mr. Lothario]

     I offer for your consideration my personal criteria for the rightness or goodness of a law. A law is good if it protects the innocent. Period. For this purpose, I define "innocents" as people who are not involved in whatever is going on. Passers-by, small children, etc. This means, in part, that "crimes" which only endanger yourself and/or willing participants are not rightfully crimes. Based on this criteria, DUI should be a crime solely for the reason that it endangers others. Cliff diving or base jumping (if you're landing on unpopulated areas) should be legal, since there's only the possibility of the participants dying.

     People having guns is not a crime. People using guns to aid in theft or murder or etc. is a crime. Gun control laws should be designed to keep innocents safe. If someone is attempting to commit a crime and is shot and killed, that's natural selection at work. If that same someone shoots and kills a person in the course of the crime, they should be punished mercilessly. THE CRIMINAL IS IN THE WRONG. Precautionary measures ranging from the sensible (gun safes and locks) to the more ideal (user verification before the weapon will fire) are excellent, but they're not the whole solution. Ideally, a restructuring of laws is in order. Reforge the penal code so that the person who willingly violates the basic Libertarian principles (sanctity of property, of life, and of trust in business dealings; that is, don't steal, don't murder, and don't violate your contracts and/or commit fraud) is legally considered to be in the wrong and at fault. If you commit a crime, you should be damned no matter how you do it. If a shopkeeper kills a person who is robbing the store, that should be legal. Being engaged in committing a crime removes you from the protection of the law. The only way a criminal will be safe is if they get away cleanly, which most criminals can't do more than a few times.

     Only true crimes should be legally considered criminal, and committing crime should be extremely dangerous, both legally and personally.

[OoA Rob]

Bondo, the USSR example is a very good one.  In a public area, if someone pulls the trigger, there will be many others to shoot right back.  Just like the cold war, they shoot missiles, we shoot missiles.  This wont make very many people to eager to push their suicide button.

btw, nearly 5 years ago my dad and brother-inlaw cought 3 teenagers that broke into 2 of our cars.  My oldest sister noticed movement at night and told my dad.  My dad then gave my brother-inlaw a .45 and he took his .44 pistols.  They waited for them to walk down one side of block, then my dad and bro drove 1 mile on our 2 mile block, and hide in some bushs on the side of the road waiting for them to come.  Some of them had small baseball bats.  As they came closer my dad yell out"FREEZE!"  then they screamed "DON"T SHOOT" as 2 guns aim OVER their heads(not aiming at them).  So the kids fell to the ground and spead eagle.  Now my dad could of took them to the cops, but he had a better plan.  My dad drove them to their houses at 3am; some crying.  Thier parent were woken up by thier kids nocking on the door.  At first one didn't want to nock on his own door, he said "my parents will kill me!".  My dad told him "nock on your door or we're going to the police"; he nocked on his door.  The parent we furious and they planed a meeting with all the kids and parents.  My dad had plenty of work for them to do and they paid 100 bucks in addition.  My dad recived Thank You's and work out in the best of ways.  Thoses kids could of gotten away with robbery and continue untill something harmful.  Sence my dad was armed we was able to change 3 kids paths in life.

Also,4 days ago our nextdoor neighbor was robbed to bad no one knew at the time.

Bondo can live in his constant fear, terified to go everywhere he goes(gas station,supermarket,mall,ect.).  He lives out just what terrorist wants, affaid of daily activities.  I'm not terrorized, I prefer our door to be unlocked, i'm in comfort.

[Bondo]

I never said I lived in fear...I have absolutely no fear of death, death comes to us all and I'm fine with that be it tomorrow or when I'm 100.  But then again I'm not most people, most people are afraid of dying.

[OoA Rob]

You act like the cold war was a good thing...and I suppose in your example the USSR is the criminals?  Sorry, I'd rather have the minute threat of terrorism (now) then constant fear (the Cold War/Texas).

I got the impression that you  thought people walking around with guns were scarry.

[Bondo]

It would be...to people afraid of dying...which like I said is most people.

[blackhand on os x]

i'm not afraid of dying, however, i am afraid of my younger brother and sister getting gunned down on their way to school. both of their school's have been in lock-down ever since the first shootings.

maybe you get a different perspective when these things happen only minutes from where you live, but frankly, fuck all of you who have trivialized these events.

[OoA Rob]

Sorry, I'd rather have the minute threat of terrorism (now) then constant fear (the Cold War/Texas).

It seems that you were speaking for yourself, saying "I'd".  Perhaps you didn't mean it.

i'm not afraid of dying, however, i am afraid of my younger brother and sister getting gunned down on their way to school. both of their school's have been in lock-down ever since the first shootings.

maybe you get a different perspective when these things happen only minutes from where you live, but frankly, fuck all of you who have trivialized these events.

Oh god, fuck you.  how many schools are in the U.S.? you think yours will be picked? how many people at your school? you think your bro or sister will get picked?  don't even worry about it.  I have had been in lock down 2 times, one shooting 4 miles away at a nearby High School, and another shooting minutes away.  I'm in San Diego and I pass by Santana High School nearly every day, going to HS and now college.  Happend to me 2 times,minutes away, my perspective hasn't changed.  yeah its horible to have school shooting across the nation, but worry about them crossing the street and not geting hit by cars.

[Deadeye]

school shootings are terrible and horrible things.  the thing that is truely disturbing though is that fact that school shootings have gone on in the inner city for years and years, but only gets big attention when it happens in the burbs to the yuppies kids.  guns are taked off kids in detroit high schools every week.  i'm sure it's the same in la and chicago and new york.  people should think about that too.

loth, i almost agree with everything you've said.  the only exception i have was probably not with what you were thinking, but just the way it came across.  i don't agree that it's ok to shoot someone that is robbing you, unless your life is actually threatened.  if some punk just pushes you out of the way, and starts pulling money out of the register, then leaves, killing him is still wrong to me (personal judgement on my part).  

but yes, i whole heartedly agree with everything else you said.  laws and penalties need to be there to punish the guilty and protect the innocent.  not to protect me from me.  not to infringe upon my liberties in case i may not respect others rights.

[OoA Rob]

Often times you wont have to shoot the robber, as long as they see you are impowered with a gun.  You don't have to shoot to kill, if needed.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

You act like the cold war was a good thing...and I suppose in your example the USSR is the criminals?  Sorry, I'd rather have the minute threat of terrorism (now) then constant fear (the Cold War/Texas).

Since I lived through the cold war, and you didn't, I'll consider your opinion pretty much worthless.  All the cold war was to you is some pages in a history book.  We were not afraid all the time.  I'm much more worried about terrorist then I ever was about nukes being used.  And my point wasn't to put either side in the bad light (I leave that to whichever side you were on).  My point had only to do with the great deterent.  The death penelty isn't a deterrent (it doesn't work), everyone having guns, is (it does work).

As usual I will support my fellow liberal in that we have a much more clear view of what was happening during the cold war. Purhaps the fact that he hasnt been through it makes him more knowledgeable uncovers facts you may have not known due to censoring of the media by the oppresive, for the most part conservitive, united states goverenment.

On the Sniper shootings I wouldnt be surprised if the guy learned from the U.S. government everyone with a half a mind relizes every one of our enemies, we at one time supported.

[Cossack]

For those of you that have not shot a gun, shoot one. I have made the statement over and over again, that guns are supposed to be used to defend ones self from a tyrannical government. I bet you if all the citizens in Nazi Germany had guns, hitler wouldnt be in office for long. Remeber what ood ole Ben Franklin told us,"Those who seek security at the price of liberty deseve neither."  As one that has lived in communist Russia, I can tell  you that many people wisshed that they had guns. If the common peasant in the Ukrainian countryside had a gun, the USSR would not have passed through the year 1922.

[Bondo]

Hey, I lived through the last 6 years of the Cold War...so I knew about the terrible reign of that dude with the thing on his head.  

Cossack, if you feel you need them for security, then have guns in the way the writers of the constitution intended...in militias, not in private homes.  Still, I don't exactly see why people use the examples of Nazi Germany and Communist Russia to say we need it.  Both those countries were suffering huge social changes that opened the way for dictators.  That is the important factor there, not the lack of guns.  The US isn't in that spot so it would be a much better comparison to make to countries that have restricted guns during a period of stable goverment such as the UK and others in Europe, and none of them led to dictator rule.

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

God its sad to see how our world has turned out. 50-60 years ago people treated each other with respect and were fine with the way their lives went. They didn't have to rob the local mom and pop shop. I blame part of our problem today on Hollywood. Yes Hollywood. That means movies, music, tv, ads, promotions, etc. If you look at today's movies about 80% of them are all violent and have people shooting people. Now don't bullshit me and say someone can't be influenced by viewing this. I've seen 6-8 yr olds in horror/murder flicks with everyone being brutally murdered or killed. I blame the other on drugs and non-stable individuals. It's been proven that someone under the influence of a foreign agent has an altered personality. Happens with alcohol too. Combine drugs and violence and you get crime. If anything...Hollywood should tone down the violence in entertainment and our government control the drugs (which they do a poor job of already). Every child has an idol during their life and they look up to that person for guidance. When most of the idols are shooting up people in movies or rapping about cappin someone in the head....you'll get nasty results.

I forgot to add bad parenting. When parents don't teach the children properly about these dangers, they won't know the difference between right and wrong.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Man, where to start.

Zaitsev, you once again show the ignorance of people willing to argue over anything, facts be damned.  How in the world would you know what I read and listened to at that time.  I was a fucking liberal, in college, while the cold war was still raging.  I was one of those that registering for the selective service was scarry, because we thought there could be a draft.  So get off that high horse of liberalism, the air is too thin and you aren't thinking right.

Bondo, your version of the second ammendment doesn't jive with mine.  

"A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."    
?

Notice those four last words.  SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED.  That is super strong language.  Very rarely is the term "SHALL" or "SHALL NOT" used in political documents.  Everything you are talking about is infringing upon the right of the people to keep and bear arms.  It means everyone.  

Pyrex, there's always been crime and violence in Amercia (and everywhere else).  Look at the old west, or the gangster's.  Look at what kids were watching at the movies 60 years ago.  Look what they were reading before that.

The nightly news just brings it into our livingrooms and kitchens, from all over the world now.  And they do sensationalize it to boot.  

Yes, I do think that parents are getting more and more lax on the whole, and that's causing more and more problems.  But the problems have always been there.