the pledge of allegance, uncontutional?

[Bondo]

Who cares about God Bless America, it is a lame song.  We need less God Bless America and more I'm Proud To Be An American, that song kicks ass and has no mention of God or religion (to my knowledge).

Also, we need more posts from members of jn, they have sense unlike this stuck-up conservative types .

[Ace]

Who cares about God Bless America, it is a lame song.

Die. Rot in some God-less, European, socialist hell.

[Bondo]

Ace, I'm agnostic, not athiest.  I just think the song is boring, not something that would get me worked up into a patriotic ferver (well, in truth nothing would get me to be patriotic except for Nader as president).

[Brain]

what bondo fails to realize hear is that short of the national anthem, god bless america is one of the most moving patriotic songs we have, that is why is is song so often. proud to be american, while patriotic, just isnt as moving

and roy, what the hell are you judging that comment on, that little post war i had with loth? read some of my otherposts, in earlier threads, hell look at the first few posts in this thread, mb then you might see that i am not an idiot, but do actually have an iq of 100 or above

if you are going to judge me, so be it, but do so after you have ALL the facts

[Grifter]

... I'm Proud To Be An American, that song kicks ass and has no mention of God or religion (to my knowledge).

So when the line "God bless the USA" comes in, that wouldn't count?  It's near the end of the song.

And, it's about as inoffensive as saying "Under God" in my opinion.  If you don't believe in a higher being, then it doesn't mean anything.

Roy, here's the counter to your opinions... I'll be breif for a change....

Declaring the words "Under God" unconstitutional is the courts going one step past where they are supposed to tred.  The pledge isn't a law... it's a pledge.  Just like the oath you take to testify in court.  You don't have to say the oath with any reference to God... and you don't have to say the pledge either.  The courts are supposed to look at our laws, not our traditions... they over stepped their mandate on that one.  

Yes, I agree that the first ammendment is supposed to protect everyones choice about religion... but that doesn't mean that the word God makes something unconstitutional... or the courts would have to make themselves unconstitutional... I'm pretty sure the last time I saw a picture of the Supreme Court, the words "In God We Trust" were still there....

[Brain]

it was still there the last time i was there in '96 or 98'  (not exactly sure on the date)

[Bondo]

Ok, so Proud to be an American has God in it, doesn't change that it is much better than God Bless America.

[Ace]

I won't even bother debating that, but the point is that the reference to a higher deity of some sort is a longstanding part of American culture and tradition that does not infringe upon your first amendment rights unless you are a God-less communist bastard.

[Precious_Roy]

In response to the many comments since my post...

Bondo: There are only 4 jn members, at least 3 regretfully inactive in play, 2.5 on the forum.  A pity.

Brian: As stated in the intro/psuedo-disclaimer of my previous post, I have not the time to read all the forumramblings of you, your less-esteemed colleagues (Loth) or your far greater-esteemed colleagues (Ace, Grift)  I based my opinion on maybe 15 of your most recent posts.  Those posts are incomprehensible blitherings, and I was stating my opinions on them.   Your older posts may be better. (translation: suck it.) Good luck, good hunting and god bless

Ace:  In 1957 several students of Spelman College went to watch a session of the Georgia State Legislature.  Spelman, at the time, was all-women, and all-black.  Instead of sitting in the "colored section" the young ladies decided to sit in the main gallary assigned to the white viewers.  Instead of continuing with their daily, and no doubt pressing, buisness of the day, the legislature went into an uproar.  The Speaker of the house went to the mic and said "You nigras get over to where you belong!  We got segregation in the state of Georgia." The other members stood on their seats an shouted at the students.  

A long-winded and probably unneccesary correlation, I understand, but it simply shows that just because the whole of the Senate acts a certain way doesn't mean it's an institution.  Or that even if it is [an institution], that doesn't make it right.

Grift:  thanks, as always, for your logic.  24 years of schooling does a man good.  I disagree with you, but understand your sentiment, surely.  

As for the "In God We Trust" on the Supreme Court, and obviously on the dollar bill, you and i both understand why that will probably never change, court rulings or otherwise.  Money: bucks, green, dough, cash, dead presidents.  it costs to change an engraving, to change a bill.   And those things, unlike "under god" are part of our heritage

I just think it's a shame the Senate was singing instead of, well, I dunno, balancing the fucking budget.  

A good civics lesson though, to show that the branches are in compotition even as they strive for the greater good in America.

[Brain]

well, i'll agree that those last 15 posts of mine were stupid


and i have a question, do you really thing that the extra time spent singing really delayed the budget that much? the budget is most likely still stuck in comittiee right now, and chances are those members didnt sing

[Grifter]

Grift: ?thanks, as always, for your logic. ?24 years of schooling does a man good. ?I disagree with you, but understand your sentiment, surely. ?

Since you didn't read the whole thread Roy, I'll give you one more tidbit....

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

That's the part of Constitution in question.  So, first, the Pledge isn't a law (unless I'm greatly mistaken).  Second, the Pledge doesn't prohibit the free exercise of anything.

So, how exactly can the pledge be unconstitutional?

There are plent of arguments both for and against the wording... but my main point is that the Courts aren't supposed to have the power to challenge anything but a law... and that it's up to Congress to make those laws... so that if someone thinks it should be illegal to say the pledge in school... they should bring a bill before congress (through their representative).  

[Bondo]

It is as simple as this.  The pledge is a patriotic statement, if they are forcing kids to say the pledge then they are forcing kids to be patriotic.  Forced patriotism is better known as fascism.  So the pledge in its entirety should be gotten rid off (or at least not forced on people) in an effort not to be fascists.

[Brain]

bondo, if the united states were truly facist as you claim, you would have been killed a long time ago

[Grifter]

I don't know about where you live... but they don't force ANYONE to say it here.  The only rule is to stand durring it (as a sign of respect... like standing for the national anthym.)

And a fascist society would not allow anyone to disagree with it like this...

[Casper]

'Im proud to be an American" is an Awsome song.
Star spangle banner is to but, it was A peom and it metions god and its way to long But it is Still An awsome song.

[Bondo]

Grifter, I don't consider the option to not say the pledge while others say it as not being forced to.  Call it fascism through peer pressure.

[Grifter]

Actually the song is only the fist verses of the poem.  And it's a great poem (stirring is the word that comes to mind).  And it does mention God once... it is where "In God We Trust" comes from... (at least it's popular use in America).

For those of you that have never seen it... the complete Star Spangled Banner (The Defense of Fort McHenry) by Francis Scott Key:

Oh, say can you see, by the dawn's early light,
What so proudly we hailed at the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, through the perilous fight,
O'er the ramparts we watched, were so gallantly streaming?
And the rockets' red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there.
O say, does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore, dimly seen through the mists of the deep,
Where the foe's haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o'er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, now conceals, now discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning's first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines on the stream:
'Tis the star-spangled banner! O long may it wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore
That the havoc of war and the battle's confusion
A home and a country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wiped out their foul footstep's pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave:
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

Oh! thus be it ever, when freemen shall stand
Between their loved homes and the war's desolation!
Blest with victory and peace, may the heaven-rescued land
Praise the Power that hath made and preserved us a nation.
Then conquer we must, for our cause it is just,
And this be our motto: "In God is our trust."
And the star-spangled banner forever shall wave
O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave!


[/list][/color]

[Ace]

Bondo, look at all the problems in our world today. Do you see where having little kids say the pledge before class rates on that list? No, because it's so far down and buried under a mountain of real problems. I can't believe this has become such a huge issue. For fuck's sake, this will not damage someone for life or even inconvenience them in all reality. You don't like it, don't say. It's that simple. But don't take away the ability of good Americans to say the pledge in schools or elsewhere.

[Bondo]

No, it isn't important, but we might as well make it right while it is having attention put on it rather than just burying it to tackle more important issues.

[Brain]

make it right?
maybe in your mind bondo thare is a clear cut black and white line as to what is and isnt right, but i dont think that in everyone elses mind that this issue is so cut and dried.

assume for the sake of argument that right and wrong are mutually exclusive, no overlap at all.
if we make it 'right' by one group of people(a minority let's say) then aent we making it 'wrong' for another group of people(in this case, the majority)  isnt that forcing one groups will upon another? and according you your own post earlier a form of facisim?

this hypothetical situation is not to different from the pledge of alegance issue. either the words are there, or they aren't. no two ways about that. and for some groups(the minority) this is very wrong, to correct it would make it wrong for the majority(who are currently enjoying being 'right')

now if you take the theorys of what is moraly acceptable (grifter, you should know which one i'm talking about here) thar ever does the most good for the most people is morally right.ever see Star Trek 2, the wrath of kahn?  remember spocks quote "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few:" this means that the majority is in the right, after all, it's only simple logic