the pledge of allegance, uncontutional?

[jn.loudnotes]

Versailles, Grifter.

And once again we misinterpret each other.  My point was more that your refutation of our arguments seemed wearied and condescending.  That's only how it seemed to me.  

Similarly, you found my pointing that out seemingly my acting like an ass.

Neither of us has countered every valid point of the other.  But lets try to stick to those points as opposed to the viewpoint of the argument.  

You are correct in questioning statements about locations made by those who have never lived in them, but recognize that age has little to do with coherent thought.  

[Bondo]

Grift, what if I said that Canada is a better place to live because the UN ranked it #1 in the standard of living, best overall country or whatever thing it is, and the US isn't really all that close to the top (not in top 10)?  Would that be educated reasoning?

[Grifter]

Loud and Bondo....

The reason I argue age in THIS single area (one country being better to live then another) is because as a non adult, many posters don't have a large enough frame of reference to post intelligent and informed opinions on the subject. ?Like I said, if I thought nobody here could think or debate with some intelligence and logic, I wouldn't waste my time.  But in this specific case, age is a factor, along with living and working in other countries.  It's not about Pride... since I've actually looked into living in Canada, Scottland, Mexico and Japan... I've made a choice on which I believe is best...

Bondo, I'd question what the UN was using as criteria... ?since I haven't seen the report. ?Obviously they had a set of factors they were measuring, so I'd like to know what they were before passing judgement on the whole thing... but if the US wasn't in the top 10, yes, it puts it in the suspect category for me. ?After all, you can argue Canada v the US in many factors... less poverty there and socialized medacine, but socialized medacine has it's price too... both in much higher taxes and in lower quality of service (which is why Canada doesn't have the medical breakthroughs that happen in the US... well, one important reason of many). ?Have you ever checked out a dentest in Europe for example?? ?It's scarry.... trust me (when I compare them to dentests in the USA). ?But again, I'd like to see the report before throwing out lots of opinions.

[Bondo]

Grift, I think it is a combination of numerous factors such as human rights, environmental factors, economic factors such as unemployment and average quality of life, social factors such as crime rate.  I couldn't find it in the few minutes I looked at their site but it is well known.

[Grifter]

The main reason I consider reports like that suspect Bondo are the way they weigh the factors and how they get their data...  

I'll give you a good example...  but one internal to America and Detroit... but you'll get the point.  

In Detroit, the last Census had us at under 1 million people (for the first time in a long time).  This is a big deal for many reasons...  it means less federal money returned... it is the figure that gets reported and measured against all the other figures...  

Now, take that info and compare it to other info that the City has... if you go by valid driver's liscenses, there are well over 1 million living in Detroit...  same if you look at other factors (the many many people from the middle east living here, not reported)....  So figure that there are actually 1.5 million living in an area that is only reported at 900k.  Then measure crime and other factors against it... numbers will come out better or worse (depending on what you were measuring)...  but the numbers will be wrong.  

Now, this gets even worse with Detroit.... as this year (just like the last two), they failed to report the crime numbers to the FBI before the deadline...  which means the figures will never make it into a national report.... which means those numbers could be better or worse nationally if they were really measured...

All this for one city of about 1 million people.  And that's just the tip of the iceburg.

Now, how many other cities have these kinds of inconsistancies??  In America?  In the world??  How do other countries report these things??  

You get my point.

I want to see the particulars on how they collected the data and what the weighting factors are that they judged by.  I'm cynical enough to not believe anything I read without checking it out first....

[Bondo]

But if the rankings can be incorrect so they can be correct.  I'll go by the "it all evens out in the end" aproach here.  With that many factors, slight mistakes won't matter because others will have mistakes as well.

[jn.loudnotes]

I think we exhausted our stream of ideas. ?Wasn't it about this point in the terrorism thread where a guy named Bob who was an Afgan started messing with someone named Joe....

or something like that, I don't remember

Anyway, I just thought you might want to see this:

http://www.newsobserver.com/editorials/story/1501753p-1532212c.html

That's a link to an editorial that appeared in my local paper today. ?(I hope the link will stay valid beyond today - I'm not sure)

Anyway, it was written by a professor at the UNC law school. ?Compare it to some of my posts, if you will ?

In particular I was pleased to note that he used almost the exact same idea when he said:

For those who think that "under God" is merely political and not religious, imagine a hypothetical future when America is controlled by a majority of atheists, who decide to substitute "without God" for "under God" in the flag salute. I would hope that the Supreme Court (even if then also controlled by atheists) would hold that phrase to be unconstitutional. I would argue that however atheistic the majority of the country may be, our fundamental charter demands that the majority's religious philosophy not be the basis of our country's politics.

[Bondo]

Smart man (I think this is the point in the Terrorism thread where discussion of pot for no reason (oops already did that) and spam entered in.  We really should bump the Terrorism thread up for all the noobs to see, that is some classic assing going on.

[Brain]

well , i agree. it seems that we have reached an impass, and that untill something happens in this story. we are stuck

thus in order to keep keep this thread moving(too lazy to ?start another) i suggest that we talk about the school choice ruling ?handed down by the supreme court (this is a big local issue)

the meat of the case was that taxpayer money was given to those who go to underachieving public schools so they could attend private shcools, often ?religious ones.

the supreme court has ruled that this WAS constitutional. ?what do you think?

[Bondo]

I think it stinks. ?Public schools are called public because they are paid for by the goverment (through taxpayers) and are free to attend (sort of). ?Private schools are called private because they are funded by the individuals attending it. ?The fact that it talks about poor public schools doesn't matter. ?We need reform of the education system in order to eliminate poor public schools, we don't need to make them poorer by taking away money and giving it to private schools. ?And the goverment can't afford to send every kid to private school so it isn't fair, some kids get the help, some don't.  The religious aspects aren't important to this case as the individual would be choosing the school probably and thus wouldn't choose a religious school if they weren't.

[Grifter]

Loud... the one difference I have with his argument is that tradition still matters to me.  If this had just been a new change, this year... I'd be against it.  For the same reasons I'm against taking it out.  It's the tradition I wish to protect, and since I see no real harm in keeping it in (the effects to the family of the people FIGHTING to get it out is not because of the words.. but because of the FIGHT).  Once they start stealing our traditions... where will it stop.  Sombody will find everything offensive, so if something is going to be edited or deleted, there needs to be just cause... I don't see that here.  

If you want another logical argument.... the first ammendment says: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.  Well, being an athiest is being WITHOUT religion, right?  The pledge is not a LAW, right?  I say that the constitution does not cover this area at all... so the courts (which are NOT allowed to MAKE laws, ony determine if they are constitutional), should not be allowed to rule upon it.  

On to the Public Schools thoughts....

In Michigan, they were playing around with a voucher system... any kids that go to private school get a voucher, and that money comes off the tuition, from public school tax money.  I have mixed feelings on this... many mixed feelings.  

First, my wife now teaches at a private school.  The private school's have much better classrooms then pubic schools (in this area), better equiptment, and smaller classes.  But the teachers aren't paid dick (my wife works for the "richest parish" in Michigan... and still makes less then $30k/year... with a masters degree).  My wife did teach at Cass Tech... which is the stud public school in the city of Detroit... this is where all the smartest kids in Detroit Public schools go... they have to test to get in and keep up good grades to stay there.. or get sent back to their local public school.  Conditions there were horrible.  For two years, there wasn't tile on the floor of her room.. just bare concrete.  They had very few computers in the building... none in the science department (she teaches high school chem and biology and math).  Her class size was over the legal limit in Michigan...  there weren't enough books to give to each of her students...  and for two years, I paid for all the in class experiments for her... because there was no budget for labs (and chem without labs is like learning programing with no computers.... you can do it, but damn, it sucks).  

Now, with all that in mind.... I'm of a mixed mind.  When I went to HS... I had none of those issues...  classes were fine, the school had plenty of money for everything....  But, I grew up in a nice neighborhood.  I'm with Bondo that the whole system needs to be improved, but there are so many issues around it, that I understand why it's not a simple fix....

So, when my kids are old enough, they'll probably go to private school... because my wife works there and a few other reasons.... so why should I be paying for public schools if my kids aren't using them??  (one valid argument).  Why should tax money from the other side of the state go to help Detroit schools??  Why are we trowing money into public schools... why not make them all private (I've payed $8000 in city taxes since I've lived here... and I'll pay another $10000 before my first kid see's the inside of a school)  Getting the point?

Lots of issues to deal with.... the biggest yet to come... the school boards themselves.... biggest political whores there are.  The Detroit Public School Board members each make six figures.... expense trips to Vegas and Florida (why does a school board need to go as a group to Vegas??)... has car's and police protection at their meetings....  the list goes on and on....  (yes, this is the same district without enough books and no tile on the classroom floor for two years at their BEST school).  The state has tried to take action... but how do you?

So, in the meantime... there are all these issues, and hell, even as a tax paying adult, I don't know how I'd try to solve this problem....  and no matter what it is, it's going to piss off a lot of people.

And Bondo, using the voucher system, you aren't giving money to the private schools... you are giving back to the tax payer who isn't benefitting from public schools.... there is a subtle difference.  

[Bondo]

Well, maybe I don't have a good feel on this as I went to a public school that is ranked (by one magazine) to be one of the top 100 high schools in the nation, we were ranked in the top 50 for music programs, and last but not least we were ranked 2nd on Jay Leno's snobbies schools top 10 list.  As a school we have a good hundred computers, and although class sizes aren't small they aren't bigger than the rooms allow.  It does help that the district's one high school is only 1200 kids in size, it also doesn't hurt to be based in a wealthy area (need I say more than The Broadmoor).

Anyway back to the point, so you are saying they only get the money they paid towards public schools back?  I suppose that isn't unfair but it still further cripples public schooling.

[Brain]

i heard this question broached on a radio talk show, and it got my mind to thinking(i never heard the response though, so all the reasoning is my own)
why cant the school vougher issue solve the pledge of allegance problem?
hold on here,because my reasoning might be a tad rough at times, but the whole case makes sence (in my wazrped mind at least)

this atheist is complaining that his daughter is being exposed to religion through the public school system, right.
and with this whole issue with the school choice system was that, childeren were often going to religious schools.
often but not always
so,i thought hey, why cant they just give the ruy a voutcher and then send the kid to a private shcool?
odds are the kid would get a better education, would NOT have to say under god, and then there would be no public response, no nastay hate mail, and no scathing newspaper editorials for acting unamerican in a time of war. this whole issue wouldnt even a blip on the radar screen
the under god suporters wouldnt care, they would still have god in the pledge; the athiests would be happy, they could get to go to a better school and not have to worry about religion being 'forced' to religion; and the public would be happy just tobe able to watch the news without seing out country being smoothed over and picked apart by (in their minds) frivoless lawsuits and excessive litigation(they could then get back to watching the stockmarket react to scandal after buisness scandal as they hope that their retirement package wont shrink two a few pennies by the time they get to that age)

everybody is happy, nobody has to file suit, and it's off the media radar. sounds like a fine souution to me

[Bondo]

I don't think sending kids to a private school is a solution to having unconstitutional public school behavior.  Religion shouldn't be in schools other than in social studies talking about ancient religions and historical religious conflicts.  Those who want religion in their school should go to a religious school, and no, they shouldn't get a voucher to do so.

[Ace]

I know I'm a little late, but it would feel wrong if I didn't butt in and give my 2 cents...

I haved mixed feelings about the pledge. Yes, if you want to be  head-up-your-ass PC (politically correct, not the computer kind of head-up-your-ass PC) bitch, you probably can make a halfway decent argument that "under God" is infringing on your freedom of religion. However, you really need to think about what you are arguing first. This phrase only refers to a generic deity with absolutely no connection to any religion. Like GRIFT said, it is a tradition that, like it or not, has and always will be a part of our collective American culture. If you really wish to get rid of every such reference, we will be here a long time erasing a lot of stuff from our history. On an interesting note, I would really like to see someone testify in an appeal in support of this ruling and say "so help me God" as he/she is being sworn in.

As for the public school voucher system, while it does have it's merits, I have found (or at least with how they planned to do it in CA before it got voted down) was that it wasn't really feasible. Think about this. If you give people vouchers to leave bad public schools, those schools will have even less money and will get even worse. There has to be some method for improving those schools, not just leaving them to rot.

Oh yeah, if certain people think our government is so corrupt yet the only action they take to change it is bitching on these forums, get out of our glorious nation.

[Bondo]

What would you suggest I do other than bitch...vote?  Voting doesn't matter in our two party system.  I won't vote for a Democrat or a Republican because they both have their heads up their asses.  And the chance of any third party getting elected is approximately nil.  Oh, and I live in a very republican district of a very republican city in a very republican state (cept Boulder and Denver).  My vote is not going to get a smart liberal elected.  If significant election reform happened maybe parties outside the main two would have a chance but until then...

[Grifter]

Actually Bondo, they don't even get close to all their taxes back in those vouchers.... just a piece of it.

The basic idea is that they figure out how much $$$ per student goes into the schools from the local taxes...  then you can get a voucher for that amount to go towards the private school tuition.  

Yes, it is taking money out of the school... along with the major need of that money.... the student.

But they would be much better served cutting out the waste and getting thier shit together then to worry about the tuition vouchers.  Yes, I was lucky enough to go to a public charter school in a community that passed any specail millege that came up (exta taxes for schools that get voted on).  If they got some guys that knew how to run a budget in there.. and not just line their own pockets... it would be a great start.

[jn.loudnotes]

Ace - I think that's come up in the courts as well.  I do believe you're not required to say "so help me god" if you do not wish to.  Correct me if I'm wrong - but I think there's an alternative areligious oath.  

Also, I forget which religion - I think it's Jehovah's Witnesses - does not allow the swearing of oaths.

They make a "solemn promise" as I recall. . .

[Grifter]

That last one was a great example of starting a post at work, then finishing it at home later....

So on to the three posts that came in between....

Ace, I was going to bring up that tradition as well (swearing on the Bible or other holy books... but they do have a way around it for athiests... they take a more simple vow at least in Michigan.

As for the vouchers taking away from the schools that need it... yeah, in a way, but is it fair to pay taxes to those public schools when you are paying to send your kids to private schools?  And if you answer yes... why not socialize medacine and all other services?  

And Bondo... you can't have it half way.... if you are for vouchers, they are for all private schools.. religious or not.  Don't forget all of you guys that 90% of private schools are connected to one church or another.  There are others, but they are usually very small.  You also have to remember that the school districts that are in trouble are not the ones in rich neighborhoods like the ones we grew up in... (well, upper middle class at least).  The districts in trouble are the ones in the bigger cities... where polotics and corruption are rampart.

Also, don't let your cynicism blind you in voting... in your old home of Minn, an independant governer was elected a few years ago... no?  If it can happen there... it can grow, can't it?  Jesse made a big splash... and has done more good for independant candidates then any other person since we went to a two party system.  Like him or not, he made a big impact and some great points.  He was also upfront and honest (so refreashing in polotics) and even kept his envolvement in WWF and XFL to earn his money (instead of voting himself a raise like most guys in his place... or taking kickbacks... etc.).  So don't act like things can't change... they always do and already have.

[Grifter]

You are correct Loud, except each state may have it's own little twist on how they handle it.