ANWR, Saved by 9/11?

[Typhy]

Ace, I lost my uncle, I used to stay with him at times when we went to Florida to see my Gradparents, everyone else would stay with my Gradparents, I would stay with him, we would watch sports, talk about sports, do a ton of stuff, one of the greatest people that I've ever known.

[Jeb]

typhy,
ok, if 4 snow foxes die so 20 million people can drive to work and help the economy, i say fuck the animals. If a pig is gonna have to be burnt in lab research tests to help burn victums, i'd light the torch. i live in seattle, and i'm sickened by how much people care.

A local story is of a killer whale that was spoted swimming without a pod in puget sound. many local people were upset and tried to get the whale moved to alaska were its native pod resides. This little concern quickly escalated into a news worthy story. I haven't seen a episode of the local news in the past 3 weeks without at least 3minutes of coverage devoted to this whale. Yesterday they spent alot of time and money to capture and ship this 1 whale to alaska. And for what? I'd guess that the cost to move a whale in a cadermaran, make it a enclosed pen, and mark and track the whale would be astronomical. This so that one whale, that should have died via Survival of the fittest can weaken the gene pool of its pod.

The point of the rant is that when a small, meanless thing, like drilling oil in a small contained area in alaska gets media atention. Sudenly, people who have nothing else to do get upset, and protest. Most of the protesters are ignorant to the specs of the project, and what it could mean in our dependance on saudi arabia for oil. With times being tough in the middle east, we will need this oil. Typhy be realistic, every once and a while we have to kill animals. Today i had a sandwich with... turkey and ham. that means that 2 animals died to make me a sandwich, big fucking deal i needed the lunch, just like america needs do gain some dependance in the oil world.

I have a deep hatred for organizations such as, greenpeace, peta, and other organizations for fat single women and guys who wear birkenstocks. Much of the work these people do does nothing.  But then again i hate to see people pray cause its a waste of time.

this isn't to say i hate nature and litter. I recycle everyday, i pick up litter, and i'm for many environmental reforms. However when you look at drilling for oil in alaska, its not a matter of Bush wanting to drill for it, its a matter of america needing oil from alaska.
jeb
ps. why don't we see more desel cars on the market, they get better milage than gas cars, and replicate the power. As seen in many Large trucks.  

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

I have a deep hatred for organizations such as, greenpeace, peta, and other organizations for fat single women and guys who wear birkenstocks. Much of the work these people do does nothing. ?But then again i hate to see people pray cause its a waste of time.

Ah yes Jeb, we have something in common. Personally, I like the video I saw of a Russian cruiser shelling and destroying 5 greenpuke craft for trying to interfere with a drilling platform being built.

[Bondo]

Hmm, I've said that we can not drill but still not get oil from the middle east twice but no one seems to hear me .  I don't support fanaticism or eco-terrorism because that just puts environmentalists a step back as the public continues its idea that we are crazy.  For every person who chains themselves to trees to prevent it from being cut down there are 100 that don't but wish the tree wouldn't get cut down and try to use political means to accomplish this goal.

[Brain]

sin, going back to your post before last.
no these methods are not efficient as of yet, BUT if we start them into production now, the repeated usage will help increase efficency many times faster than if we just hold them in the lab until they are efficient enough

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

sin, going back to your post before last.
no these methods are not efficient as of yet, BUT if we start them into production now, the repeated usage will help increase efficency many times faster than if we just hold them in the lab until they are efficient enough

What? I said nothing about efficiency Brain...my post before last was a semi-slam of casper:

First off twit, it is either assassin or sin.

Second, I visited twice, during June and December of 2000.

Third, I bet you being as ignorant as you are, havent even looked over the plan or heard about it in enough detail to get an educated opinion of it. It will take up approximately one square mile of area to drill.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Hate to double post...but Bondo is correct on the natural fuels thing. Diesel engines were unveiled at the World's Fair about a century ago with the intent of the creator that they be operated by natural fuels (crop based). That being said, you can buy this type of fuel now for diesel engines, but it isnt as efficient and it costs ruffly $5.00 a gallon. (special thanks goes to my neighbor, who is a biologist, for this info.)

[Bondo]

Well, yes, the price is a bit higher, but if they dropped the tax on gasoline it would be back down to a reasonable level that wouldn't hurt the economy.  Although my friend tells me the goverment will never put an end to a tax, I think it could happen if it got us away from Middle Eastern oil.

[Brain]

DOH!!!
sorry sin, i ment to say ace

boy do i feel like an idiot

[Precious_Roy]

Much like Bondo, I appear to be a little late.  But regardless, let me try to add a little bit of the famed jn logic/lunacy to the mix.

I have no idea where this terrorist shit has come from.  OPEC does not support terrorists.   The contributers to the bueracratic disaster/monstrosity that is OPEC do not support terrorists.  The European countries who get oil from OPEC don't support terrorists.  The U.S., who gets their middle east oil from OPEC, sure as hell doesn't support terrorists.  The U.S. and, more importantly, the U.N. have sanctions against those countries who do support terrorists, whether or not they have oil.  I hope my repatition has validated my point.

On a sidebar, Typh, there are 2 rules on the forum.  1) Don't be stupid 2) Don't be evil.

You broke rule 1, and you stretched rule 2 with some of your remarkes.  

Ace, as the resident ass and head of the "fucking internet republicans" fiercely enforces these rules on his personal moral grounds.  And rather eloquently I might add.  Much like the forum, there are 2 rules concerning him 1) Don't cross him 2) If you do cross him, make sure you do it with wit, intelligence, eloquence, and evidence.

You didn't follow either, so he will, (and has) in the purely figurative net-based realm, ripped you apart.  

Work on that.  Don't do it again. (sorry, long sidebar, back to substance)


A)  We have no idea how much oil is down there.  Enviromentalists and Liberals say not nearly as much as we think, Conservatives and Unionists estimate much more.  All these groups publish different numbers, according to the evidence they've gathered, and, sadly, the interest group they support.  No doubt they are all wrong in their etimtes, and that it is somewhere in between.

Finding how much oil there is, exactly, is a rather easy, and extremly non-invasive procedure.  In one year we can have precisly the correct number of gallons in ANWR (or liters for those across the pond).  Before we do anything so stupid as drilling or anything as shortsighted as banning drilling, we need to have all the facts.

2)But what of the facts?  To me they are inconsiquential.  No matter how small the drilling area is with horizontal drilling techniques--be it 10 miles, 1 mile, or 10 feet--enviromentalists all agree that  it would be disruptive to migratory patterns of birds and caribou, and dangerous to endangered species and threatened species.  I'm inclined to trust the enviromentalists on this matter over their political opposites simply because they are paid to study the enviroment.  That and they support the clean water and air acts, which have done immesureable good for the enviroment and which republicans are in the process of dismantaling.

3)It costs to drill.  No matter how much oil there is in ANWR, the source will run out.  Recent reports say we have 20 years left of oil, 40 of coal, and 100 of natural gas.  We are running out, and will continue to run out.  That money would be much better spent on more effective and efficient alternative sources of energy glossed over by Bondo and others.

4)Drilling is short-sighted and dangerous.  Better options exist.  Hopefully wiser men will prevail.  But they won't, because U.S. society loves instant gratification, and there are few options more instant or more gratifying to the U.S. public than drilling in ANWR

[Mr. Lothario]

    GM recently began a billion-dollar R&D effort towards making production fuel cell vehicles. That'll take a few years, but it's a very promising sign that a large company is looking a little further ahead.

    As for alternative fuels, don't forget cannabis oil. Heh.

[Ace]

I have no idea where this terrorist shit has come from. ?OPEC does not support terrorists. ? The contributers to the bueracratic disaster/monstrosity that is OPEC do not support terrorists. ?The European countries who get oil from OPEC don't support terrorists. ?The U.S., who gets their middle east oil from OPEC, sure as hell doesn't support terrorists. ?The U.S. and, more importantly, the U.N. have sanctions against those countries who do support terrorists, whether or not they have oil. ?I hope my repatition has validated my point.

I derive the terrorist reference from Bin Laden. I know his father is a Saudi multi-millionaire/billionaire, and I believe that it is from oil. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

Ace, as the resident ass and head of the "fucking internet republicans" fiercely enforces these rules on his personal moral grounds.

Don't worry, I'm not just like this on the net. My friends refer to me as the "Republican bastard," which probably comes as no surprise to you. I don't enforce those rules per se. I merely suggest them through excessive flaming when someone breaks them. :P

A) ?We have no idea how much oil is down there. ?Enviromentalists and Liberals say not nearly as much as we think, Conservatives and Unionists estimate much more. ?All these groups publish different numbers, according to the evidence they've gathered, and, sadly, the interest group they support. ?No doubt they are all wrong in their etimtes, and that it is somewhere in between.

Finding how much oil there is, exactly, is a rather easy, and extremly non-invasive procedure. ?In one year we can have precisly the correct number of gallons in ANWR (or liters for those across the pond). ?Before we do anything so stupid as drilling or anything as shortsighted as banning drilling, we need to have all the facts.

2)But what of the facts? ?To me they are inconsiquential. ?No matter how small the drilling area is with horizontal drilling techniques--be it 10 miles, 1 mile, or 10 feet--enviromentalists all agree that ?it would be disruptive to migratory patterns of birds and caribou, and dangerous to endangered species and threatened species. ?I'm inclined to trust the enviromentalists on this matter over their political opposites simply because they are paid to study the enviroment. ?That and they support the clean water and air acts, which have done immesureable good for the enviroment and which republicans are in the process of dismantaling.

3)It costs to drill. ?No matter how much oil there is in ANWR, the source will run out. ?Recent reports say we have 20 years left of oil, 40 of coal, and 100 of natural gas. ?We are running out, and will continue to run out. ?That money would be much better spent on more effective and efficient alternative sources of energy glossed over by Bondo and others.

4)Drilling is short-sighted and dangerous. ?Better options exist. ?Hopefully wiser men will prevail. ?But they won't, because U.S. society loves instant gratification, and there are few options more instant or more gratifying to the U.S. public than drilling in ANWR

Dare I say I somewhat agree with roy on a political issue? Everyone put your money on the Cubbies winning the World Series in that case. All joking aside, Roy provides some very reasonable solutions/advice regarding the situation.

1) I'll take your word that we can determine relatively accurately how much oil there is in ANWR, in which case we should have people up there right now checking it out.

2) I also agree that this will affect more than just the immediate area that is being drilled at. However, I think that is inconsequential. Last time I checked, we are higher up on the food chain than anyone. Our first and foremost concern should be ourselves, not some little furry animal. If you want to argue that having the reserve for human enjoyment is worthwhile, you would have at least a chance in my mind of making sense of it.

3 & 4) As with all oil fields, ANWR has a finite supply. Like I said before, alternative energy sources are not capable of fully replacing oil yet. This leaves two course of action as I see it. First, we must work on finding renewable energy sources to eventually replace oil. Second, we must create an advantageous oil solution in the present that doesn't totally fuck us over in the future. I think losing a few woods than anyone hardly ever goes to is the end of the world despite what some environmentalists may argue.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

I derive the terrorist reference from Bin Laden. I know his father is a Saudi multi-millionaire/billionaire, and I believe that it is from oil. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one.

Oil and a large construction business.

I made my terrorist referrence because of the likes of Saddam Hussein of Iraq, and Omar Ghaddafi of Libya, who as you should know, are part of OPEC. These two have recently (within the past decade for ghadaffi, presently with saddam) actively supported terrorism and could care less what happens as long as their agendas are fufilled.

1) I'll take your word that we can determine relatively accurately how much oil there is in ANWR, in which case we should have people up there right now checking it out.

While this may be the case, no one is currently looking into the actual size of the oil field due to the enviro-commies arguing against it. Write your local congressperson folks.

[theN00b]

Sin, I would like to point out first that I too liked that video of the Peter the Great shelling those greenpeace fucks. How dare they go and fuck with our operations. Secondly, we do not heavly rely on oil from the mideast. ANWR will only put a drop in the bucket. Not to mention the slightest change in ecological system will effect a larger area. Also who is so certain that leaching will occur. Then again. Terrorists are bad, so is the Isreali Defence Force. A combination of more fuel efficent engines, bondo's idea, and reliance on other nations. Such as Mexico, Pakistan, India, the Central Asian republics (remeber all the "stans"). Not to mention there are huge oil reserves in Siberia. Our cooperations would not be able to drill there (thanks to a brilliant law passed by the Duma and Putin) but they would be able to buy oil from them. Remember the biggest contributer to our oil is VENUZUELA! People need to agknowledge that. Most of the oil those unstable middle eastern states provide is going to Europe. However Europe is switching over to the Russian option gradually and the British and Norwegians are making more oil platforms in the North Sea. Reliance on the middle east for petrol is gardually dwindling. Also on a totally different note. Do any of you know what is happening in the Spratly Islands in the Yellow Sea? If oil is found there Jiang Zemmin vowes to send the Chinese Fleet to "secure all the islands" this includes islands right off the philippenes. I am not sayin the United States will be destroyed, but China getting expansionist and waving their nuclear sabres at everyone including the US eighth fleet is not a good thing. What I am tring to say is that so much rests on this one resource. China for all its vastness has no real oil reserves and they want oil. Oil has a strnglehold on our economy. May I propose Fission powered cars?

Cossack Out (just pokin fun of rebel)

[Bondo]

2) I also agree that this will affect more than just the immediate area that is being drilled at. However, I think that is inconsequential. Last time I checked, we are higher up on the food chain than anyone. Our first and foremost concern should be ourselves, not some little furry animal. If you want to argue that having the reserve for human enjoyment is worthwhile, you would have at least a chance in my mind of making sense of it.

Ok, sorry but that doesn't really make sense.  The fact that we are the top of the food chain doesn't mean we can ruin the environment to aid ourselves because if we ruin the environment enough we cut out the bottom of the food chain and die.  And besides, unlike many animals, humans are overpopulated so we shouldn't further depopulate animals in order to continue to overpopulate our species.

[Typhy]

Ace: Just because humans are at the top of the food chain, doesn't mean that we should just go kill off everything lower than us. It's a fact that the overall damages caused to ANWR from digging for oil would be greater in terms of time than the oil gained from there, I think that we should start working away at the supply of oil that we've got, and kick in all of our money that would be spend digging for oil, to try and find an alternative source of energy. Any company that finds a good afordable alternative to oil etc, will get a lot of money. That should be an encoragement for all of the companies to try and find one, however, I guess that they would rather just think of now, not into the present, and dig for oil instead of try and find another source.

If this makes no sence, Just ignore it, I am very tired.

[Typhy]

typhy,
ok, if 4 snow foxes die so 20 million people can drive to work and help the economy, i say fuck the animals. If a pig is gonna have to be burnt in lab research tests to help burn victums, i'd light the torch. i live in seattle, and i'm sickened by how much people care.

A local story is of a killer whale that was spoted swimming without a pod in puget sound. many local people were upset and tried to get the whale moved to alaska were its native pod resides. This little concern quickly escalated into a news worthy story. I haven't seen a episode of the local news in the past 3 weeks without at least 3minutes of coverage devoted to this whale. Yesterday they spent alot of time and money to capture and ship this 1 whale to alaska. And for what? I'd guess that the cost to move a whale in a cadermaran, make it a enclosed pen, and mark and track the whale would be astronomical. This so that one whale, that should have died via Survival of the fittest can weaken the gene pool of its pod.

The point of the rant is that when a small, meanless thing, like drilling oil in a small contained area in alaska gets media atention. Sudenly, people who have nothing else to do get upset, and protest. Most of the protesters are ignorant to the specs of the project, and what it could mean in our dependance on saudi arabia for oil. With times being tough in the middle east, we will need this oil. Typhy be realistic, every once and a while we have to kill animals. Today i had a sandwich with... turkey and ham. that means that 2 animals died to make me a sandwich, big fucking deal i needed the lunch, just like america needs do gain some dependance in the oil world.

I have a deep hatred for organizations such as, greenpeace, peta, and other organizations for fat single women and guys who wear birkenstocks. Much of the work these people do does nothing. ?But then again i hate to see people pray cause its a waste of time.

this isn't to say i hate nature and litter. I recycle everyday, i pick up litter, and i'm for many environmental reforms. However when you look at drilling for oil in alaska, its not a matter of Bush wanting to drill for it, its a matter of america needing oil from alaska.
jeb
ps. why don't we see more desel cars on the market, they get better milage than gas cars, and replicate the power. As seen in many Large trucks. ?

Jeb, I go by the idea, give 1 life to save 2, I will always go by that, if there was ever a time in my life where I had to give my life to save 2 other peoples, I would do it. For me, the same is true for smart animals, Bear, Eagles, etc. While I don't feel like you should give up your life to save 2 of these, I do feel though, that it isn't right to kill these animals unless it's %100 nesscessary, If you've gotta kill a few animals to dig for oil, I say "No way". If a pig has to die to find a cure to a life threatning sickness that effects more than 1 person, then so be it as long as it doesn't inflict the animal in any pain, or as long as it's not cruel to the animal.

-Typhy

[Jeb]

Thats understandable typhy,
i wasn't sure if you were one of those fanatical persons.
But still, even if a bear doesn't die from drilling, millions of cows die to make cheeseburgers. Were is the sense in saving 1 life when there are animals being slaughtered?

I'd hate to see the day when all cars are fuel cell cars, or hybrid cars. Mb i just like driving, but the honda hybrid is rediculously slow. That might be a good car for a girl to drive to the mall in, but not for me.

[theN00b]

Oh I almost forgot to say. Our oil supply is more than 20 years. It is around 70 years in all truth! I dont want to sound nationalistic, but there are oil feilds in Russia that are the size of Canada. Of coarse alot of it is in the frozen tundra. And for many Of my claims here are a few links for you to read up on.http://www.howstuffworks.com/gas-price3.htmhttp://english.pravda.ru/usa/2002/04/17/27736.html I would also like to back down from my venuzuela claim. I seemed to have missread a past article. Infact our biggest oil contributer are the fuckers in Saudi Arabia. The relationship between Saudi Arabia and US is the same relationship between junkie and dealer. Credits to John Stewert for that analogy.

[Bondo]

Jeb, I'm sure that if my 4 cylinder Subaru Wagon can have great acceleration and go over 100 mph (mind you I use all the rpms that it doesn't mark with red) then I'm sure they can make a alternative fuel car that can do just as well.  Sure, we may not get 0-60 in 5 seconds but you'll get a car that can go 100 and can accelerate pretty well.  It just takes a little while for the technology to be perfected.