Part 2 Season 5: Game modes, competition ladders and more

[*DAMN Mauti]

Guys thanks for all your inputs! Well the honest reason why I immediatly want to put Warzone as competition ladder is that you all have to test it! Currently from your comments most never tried it out in a real cb like situation.

If you do pretesting we have the experience that could be useful for the season settings!

0 respawns is still open for me because then Warzone would be like LMS!!! You can hunt down the enemy as usual but if the enemy decides to camp you can simply conquer the warzone and they have to come out! That's the main idea behind the change to warzone as Sickboy pointed out: it should extend the LMS ladder by extending the tasks with realistic tasks.

Some clans will start to run like crazy to the zone while others will try to gain control the area around the zone and kill each one that tries to get in. It is more tactical than ever.

Just read Sickboy's post he said what I always tried to say about warzone.

Just play some test games and then we can continue arguing - one thing for sure is that warzone will come in one or the other way. May 0 spawns may some teamspawns. Testing will show how we gonna play it in the future.

Bye and start trying it please,

Mauti

[|3ID| Solidus]

I think that we should stay with The way the BattleLeague Rules were before-LMS with No Spawn. That is the true test of Skill, as far as I am concerned. If you want a Warzone Ladder make one, but keep the Ladder for LMS. I and 19 |3ID| Clan Members say: Not a good idea.
Just my 10 cents..
(2 cents plus inflation)
-Solidus

[Saberian 3000]

ok, with this issue I completely and wholeheartidly agree with the c| boys on this one.  When it came to gameplay there is no better style of gameplay then LMS.  Yes, sometimes it took a while while playing the game but I do believe that much more skill and talent is put into the LMS style of game instead of warzone.  In a LMS cb you have a beter style of gameplay, and with Warzone 90 percent of the time it is whoever get's to the center smoke first..  Here's the thing, if Warzone was really that popular I would have to assume that more people would be playing it in multiplayer games.  Unfortuantely the only clan i see ever really playing this is |MP|.  Another thing I agree on is that you will lose many players of this ladder if you enforcee this as the main style of playing.  In fact it should be the other way around and that the LMS should be the main game type and Warzone should be a fun ladder.  Plz do not take out the LMS style of this ladder. Mauti, you have built the best ladder I have ever participated in, but if you do this, it will change the whole idea of the laddder.  I speak for my whole clan when i say this, please dont go to Warzone for the main ladder.


+MOD+Saberian

[Ssickboy]

Just hosted a warzone room with no spawns.  

all skilled players involved but with random teams.  I know this isn't exactly the way a cb would play out, but you can get an idea of what a serious match might be like after a number of games.

Not one game (out of about 25 games) except the very last (swamp) did anyone win by conquering the warzone.  Every win was by elimination.  All played out like LMS.  

Players quickly learned that going directly after the warzone was suicidal.  Gradually play began to lean towards normal LMS type playing.  The only time the Warzone became a factor was when it was down to 2v1 or 1v1 and the team with the map control advantage could take the warzone and force the opponent to attack or lose the match.  I'd say about 10 out of the 25 matches came down to this.  And I think with time really cool strategies to overcome this will get very exciting.

All games were less than 10min.  Avg about 3 min.  This will slow down considerably with a real cb.  The pressure to attack and gain map control had the game moving along much quicker.

Planning to have more serious games or mock cb's later on (spawns and no spawns).  Hopefully tonight.  

******
You guys who are die hard LMS only, please consider warzone (0 spawns).  Try it out.  I think you'll find that it plays exactly like LMS minus the slow defensive tactics like camping (blah blah blah).  I'm still looking for the negetive side-effects of warzone.  You guys play and post.

Other clans, besides MP, that have hosted this style of warzone before:

Virus - same idea warzone no spawns (LMS effect)
c| Me -  I started hosting this occasionally to keep noobs from camping, and yet have the LMS style play.  Works really well.  

[cO.Vickedson]

I am hesitant to agree that a MOD designed by a participating player be "allowed" to be used in official competition.  Something about it doesn't seem right.  I figure that Ghost Recon clan battles should be played with original "packaging" only...

I'm not married to this conviction and let it be known that I have played Warzone many times and do find it to be enjoyable.  I would like to see 2 separate ladders but I fear this would divide our clans and lead to the destruction of both ladders.  

That "council" thing might come in handy now in making a decision where I would vote in favor of LMS but this is Mauti's league and he can do what he wants....

[crypt]

ok, so without having to read all that stuff, what ladders are there going to be in next season, i hope you have a WZ and a LMS ladder, i personally agree with LMS staying the main ladder cause its the easiest game to practice at, and its the best test of team skill.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Wickedson, to clear up a misconception, WarZone was designed by a PC player (Major Pain or Payne, I think he calls himself). Certainly not a "participating player".

[[OZ] Jedda]

Yeah, I'm certainly with Splinter on this one as well.

I don't think that WarZone would work as a COMPETITION ladder, but could work as an additional ladder for fun.

As many others have already mentioned, the idea of spawns in a CB situation seems to defeat the purpose - spawnkilling WILL become a problem, and no real test of skill is upheld, but, if no spawns are involved, the mode will simply be LMS with a smoky plume in the centre, unless 2 incredibly skilled, or stupid clans are involved.

Also, introducing any element of chance into a CB situation doesn't quite seem right....

I think if you do a survey of all the clans who participated in season 4, many are willing to test the warzone idea, but still want to keep LMS as the main ladder.

If anything, I think more testing should be done with the mod before you go ahead with your decision.

Worried.

Jedda.

[c| Splinter]

So, I may end up eating my words here  

c| did an internal 3v3 practice CB with no respawns, and I do have to be honest, the gameplay was not what i expected (for the better).  The strong majority of it resembled a regular LMS CB.  out of the 15 or so rounds, only once did one team win by holding the warzone for 3 minutes.  About a third of the time no one even captured the warzone in the first place.  We learned that going directly for the warzone right off the bat would get you killed almost everytime.  The only times that the warzone came into play, was like what ssick said, when it came down to a 1v1 or 1v2 situation.  And it does have an interesting effect, forcing the other team to take quick action to kill the rest of the enemy or retake the warzone in under 3 minutes.

I do still hope that no respawns will become the policy of the DAMN BL.  It kept the intensity of the LMS CB gamestyle, and still allowed covential tactics to continue to be in play.  Even in maps like embassy, where i used to think that it would be a footrace to get the warzone, ended up differently.  It was easy enough to set up and make a kill of the team running to the warzone before they captured the base, or at least make a kill and retake it relatively quickly.

This could turn out to be a good change after all, but I still would like to see more testing, and a consensus from the majority of clans.  c| would very much enjoy to invite any clan that wishes to test the new style of playing in a mock CB.  It's one thing playing your own clan where you know their tactics, it's something else playing against a different clan that can pull some surprises on you

[crypt]

yes, splinter is right, after playing several games of this last night in cb style, it seems like a less camped almost more fun LMS, this could easily be a hit, or it could also easily flop, i still think that the only solution is to add this as a mini ladder for fun, to the main LMS ladder.

[*DAMN Hazard]

I played a couple games of Warzone on the c| host and it seemed just like LMS until you were the last alive and you ran to the warzone then camped it. I think it would be better with the LMS ladder as the main ladder because it has been tested already and the warzone ladder as an experimental ladder because that is what it is.

[[OZ] Jedda]

Exactly. We're onto something now!

[.::|N|SOC]

Not that you need to hear another co||ective voice, but after doing a few mock-cb's and hosting a bunch of random rooms on the Warzone mission type, I'd just like to suggest everyone keep an open mind on this. We have some time to try it out and get some familiarity with the game type before getting hot under the collar, for or against.

Personally, my least enjoyable cb's in the past have been the 2 or 3 hour marathons when we all spend too much time moving incredibly slowly or not at all. Everyone hates camping, but it will always happen when people feel that they are disadvantaged by spawn position, the loss of key team members, etc. I'm not criticizing anyone for doing this, but I find the battles where the clock runs out very aggravating, in particular when they end in a draw.

So far, it seems like Warzone is a great solution to this. It forces teams to confront one another. Especially when the battle gets down to 1v1 or 1v2, as others have mentioned.

Also, even though we're playing all the same old maps, they have a new dimension to them. The old strategies we are all used to generally work, but they have interesting new twists and turns to them. Makes it more interesting, imho.

Last, one question- can we 'fix' the mission file - maybe issue an official DAMN version (with whomever's permission) - so that the text messages match the team colors we use, so that there is an internal clock to display the base-held-time (as in Hamburger Hill, etc), and any other bugs we discover? I've personally had about 10% of the games I've hosted not end when one team was eliminated, forcing me to 'End Mission'. If we're going to use this for CB's, it really needs to be flawless, or at least more predictable.

[l ! l Dutchman]

Just a quick note from a very busy [V] Dutchman.

I haven't read all contributes, but my personal choice goes to warzone WITHOUT spawns. Like Mauti and some of the Collective guys allready stated: Warzone would be LMS with a small twist (and hopefully that twist will prevent camping a bit more than LMS).
For the people who like to cb with spawns I would suggest trying Unreal Tournament or Quake

Back to work ... hope to get back to this later....

Ciao!
Dutchman / ViRuS

[c| Splinter]

The version that DAMN has on their server is an old one.  Had some problems downloading the newer version off of the main site (http://www.geocities.com/majorplaying), but Ssick got me a copy and I've uploaded the latest version onto the co||ective site here:

http://www.thecollectiveclan.com/downloads/MPsTeamGames.zip

I doesn't change the Team Color bug (infact in the FAQ that he has on his site, he says, I know about that bug, and if you really want it fixed, do it yourself).  Not sure if it fixes the other problem, and it still doesn't have a timer.

If you open them in a text editor it's half XML and half pre-compiled code, making it impossible to edit.  There is a program that comes with the PC version of the game called IGor, which is basically the built in editor of Ghost Recon, so there is a good chance that that could be used to tweak, but I seem to be having a hard time finding a copy of it.  Got the PC, don't got the program.

[Saberian 3000]

I can understand that you guys want to change things around but the simple fact of this is that so many of us like the LMS style of gamplay.  It just allows us to focus on the enemy instead of throwing another mission into the mix of things.  Plus I would believe that it is more satisfying eliminating the enemy then winning thru a mission that is put into the mix.  I have played Warzone before and never had much likeness for it.  And I can also understadn that putting 0 respawns would make the game slightly different.  The problem with that is that this game is never really equal from the start with the spawn points and the center spot is never quite the center.  In either case I can see that you want to test the game for cb style.  My suggestion would that it would be made the secondary cb style and the primary still be LMS for the fact that we all have come to agree and accept the LMS style of gameplay.  Well , almost all of us.  But I do believe that you will find that most people will have more of a problem with the warzone style more then they would with LMS.  It seems that there is more and more people trying to make other battle league's and it makes DAMN think that they must change.  Well, I do  not believe that changing the whole playing style of the game is what this ladder needs.  Just more players.  And remember, the Ghost recon ladder was finished this last season, so why change something about the ladder that works.  there will always be small issues with clans against clans, that is a given, but the Warzone style, I do not believe it will change any of that Mauti.  it will just create more dis-satisfaction with the players in the cb.

+MOD+Saberian

[c| Splinter]

I used to be against it Sab, but after doing a few practice CBs with [one], 3ID, and a lot of internal ones, it plays almost exactly like LMS.  The focus still is the eliminating the other team.  I've probably played about 100 or so rounds of CB style warzone and only once has it come down to the timer.  What it has done is make the last few minutes of the match alot more exciting.  All the warzone does is make one team come out and try to kill the other.  And having the control of the warzone near the end isn't always the best.  I've seen lots of situations where the remaining players captured the warzone, and were focused on protecting the warzone, ended up easier to kill cause they weren't as focused on protecting themselves.

The regular warzone format with multiple spawns is what i've played before this mostly.  That is a completely different game, and that is what i was thinking of when i made my first posts.  After playing it CB style, it's a whole new bag of chips.

Anyhow, c| and MOD should do a practice CB this week or sometime this weekend, so you guys can get a feel of what it would be like in a CB situation.  We've had notoriously slow CBs in the past , and i think this new format will keep the feel of the game the same, but speed it up and make it more exciting.

If after we play, you still hate it, that's totally fine, and you should say so.  This new format should be decided by all.  I just know from my personal experience that I hated it until I played it CB style...then it was all goodness

I would like to hear from [one] and 3ID to hear what they thought of our practice CBs.  They seemed to like it more in the CB, but I don't want to put words in their mouths.

[Ssickboy]

PLease dont forget... Season 3 and 4 was not all smooth sailing.  There are imperfections to our normal LMS style cb's and thats why this idea of warzone was proposed.  It's not just some random ladder shake-up.

Season 4 LMS cb's:   A team only needed one single kill in order to win the battle.  This caused the game to slow down, and evenly matched teams had draw after draw making the battles even longer.

Warzone (0 spawns):   A team must eliminate the entire opposing team in order to win.  Despite what you may think, this is how warzone plays out in about 95% or more of the cb's.  So far after numerous battles it has only ended in a draw when the last two guys killed each other at the same time.  

[Aramarth]

Ssick and Mauti, you have the right idea.  Actual combat centralizes around control of objectives, not wiping the floor with your opponents.

For the liberals among you, I have a counter proposal (offered only for debate purposes).  If we really want to convert to map control over simple combat, why not use domination instead of warzone?  That way there are multiple "checkpoints" on the map for team progress, and annihilating your enemies still gives you victory.  Downside is that you don't win for having control when the game's time runs out, it is scored based upon the battle's entire length as opposed to the results.  Another up-side, domination is not a mod so everyone already has it.

My personal opinion is in favor of warzone, but a case can be made for domination as well.  Or, another option is here for your debating pleasure.  What if a warzone-domination-hybrid was made, providing the 5 smoke locations of dom with the more effective conditions of warzone (being control at the end)?

I also plan to host a bunch of warzone, 5 min, no spawns.  I think 10 is proper for cbs, but for friendly play i get more joiners with 5 min games.

[BTs_eight]

GARBAGE!

Warzone = garbage...

Well... it's like LMS, so why do we need another ladder? Like LMS?
I think this game is a great excuse to camp... I played a little bit of it and on some maps some teams would sit up on a hill an keep an eye out...

Once that guy is dead in a regular (WZ) cb... how quickly will the action move then? Just as quick as these practice cbs? NEGATIVE!

All warzone does is give the team with less people a slight chance to win.
ALL games i played were LMS, played till the teams were done.

Lets have a gametype that differs from LMS or its pointless....