Part 2 Season 5: Game modes, competition ladders and more

[*DAMN Mauti]

@ bs ladder: I looked at it but I don't think c4 and nade wars have anything lost in a ladder: Most c4 games will end in a tie. Further RS is quite dead and I even doubt that we will get the required 10active clans for a competition ladder so only the 1vs1 fun ladder would be online.

About the FFA ladder spider sent me some suggestions and map resistrictions however I still don't know how you would handle it if other non ladder members join a FFA cb because you probably won't know all FFA ladder members!?

Bye,

Mauti

[c| Splinter]

Alright Mauti, here?s the dirt on the c| FFA ladder.

It was pretty successful.  We had about 90 matches in 45 days.  The finals kinda flopped, but the regular season was pretty strong.  Learned a lot of lessons, here are a few:

Not sure what you had in mind for the DAMN FFA ladder, but this is the breakdown of the c| FFA Ladder.

Anywhere from 4-10 players.  4 rounds of 5 minute infinite spawn.  Each player then submits what place they got for each of the rounds.  Points where given for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places (The higher the place, the more the points), 4th place or below, you get no points.

I definitely realized early on that an automated system as essential for this type of score reporting to work effectively.  Before we had the automated system, people would very often report that they placed in areas that they did not.  Once the automated system was in place, it had an error checking script to make sure that all the places that the contestants reported added up.  (4 rounds, so there had to be 4 1st places, 4 2nd places, etc).  It would wait for all the players to report their scores.  If all the scores added up, then the match would be automatically posted.  If the scores didn?t add up, it would give an error message and allows the contestants to enter their scores.  This definitely cleaned up a lot of issues.  As the season went on, there were less and less misreported scores.

There was only 1 instance of a person that wasn?t on the ladder entering a game. Each player has their own username and password for the system, and when you log in to the home page a rotating password was displayed to be used for locking the rooms ensuring that only players on the ladder could enter.

A few of the negative issues where these:

Grenades:  2 problems.  If you get a lot of players, they introduce a lot of lag.  As well, you had people that got nade happy, and got a lot of kills, but also killed themselves in the process.  Not a whole lot of skill involved in that.  A suicide rule was eventually made, stating that each suicide had to be deducted from your kill total.

Host Advantage:  The host had a major advantage in these matches, especially the ones that had a lot of lag.  Surprisingly the host didn?t end up with the best places all of the times, but people that could host, would host a lot of games in a row, and shoot up the ladder quickly.  Same sort of issues on the DAMN Ladder?the clans that play the most, go the highest up the ranks.  A modifier was introduced to compensate based on the ranks of the players.  If you did well against players that were ranked higher than you, then you got more points.  

Sensors:  A few people complained that people would drop a sensor on a small map, and find a nice cozy corner and pop off all the people as they spawn.  As a result kit restrictions was set to no sensors.  The whole idea of the league was to be as fast moving as possible and test people?s reaction timing.  Camping is about as far from that as possible.  

That?s what I can remember for now, if anything else pops into mind I?ll post more.  Also, anyone who participated in the league is welcome to add any comments.

Hope this helps ya Mauti.

[Typhy]

Never going to happen, SK.

For one, you're intending to exclude some members of this community from it, making it something that *DAMN can't support.

Two, most players don't enjoy that kind of bullshit. Whenever a host restricts something other than C4 or lag guns, I leave instantly, as do lots of people.

 

[c| Dr. NO]

So let me see if i got this, your going to kill the reg LMS ladder to test the warzone ladder?  Cant we do 2 LMS and WZ ladders?  I'm open to new things, and this WarZone ladder does sound cool.  But for good team tactic LMS is it.  You take WZ, and you get things like spawn camping, and unfair spawn points...

  my .02?

[*DAMN Mauti]

Thanks Splinter for the info - you helped me a lot. I come back to your post soon. Random password is a great idea and also the submit pattern. Btw did you selfscript your ladder or did you use a prewritten system!?

Dr. No for season 5 there will be a LMS fun/statistics ladder. Warzone will be the competition ladder. There will be some testing fun warzone cb before season 5 starts to ensure quality. I don't think spawncamping will be such an issue because first the enemy has to defend the base and second how often does occur spawncamping with only 1 respawn at max.

General about teamrespawns: the number will probably by dynamical, as Jeb suggested, only with the difference that the teamrespawn number is always 2 below your player numbers (4vs4: 2; 5vs5: 3;....)

Bye,

Mauti

[c| Splinter]

I wrote all the scripts on my own.  Took a lot of hours, but it seemed to work out well.  I haven't seen any other FFA ladder out there, and with the unique nature of the gameplay, seemed that writing my own was the best/only option.

Not thrilled that warzone is going to be the main competition ladder, especially with spawns.  I'd like to hear how other clans feel about this.

[*DAMN Mauti]

Wow great job, Splinter, you didn't exagerate when you applied as BL admin and added that you have good php knowledge!

One question regarding the FFA ladder: did the players also submit the kills and deaths or only their rank!? because if we go by kills and deaths we could make a ranking basing on killratio and ranks.

About Warzone as mainladder - give it a try - you don't have to lose much except 50days - and may it will turn out as great fun ladder   And once again we don't have regular spawns only teamspawns so your movement tactics won't differ much from a 0 spawn game because if you play uncareful you damage your own team by using their spawns.

Bye,

Mauti

[c| Splinter]

People only submitted their placements.  It seemed though that a lot of people had a hard time remembering where they placed in each of the rounds, so I wanted to keep the level of detail that each person had to remember down to a minimum.  

But as I said, although it was rough going in the beginning with this, it smoothed out as people got more used to the system.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Too bad we couldn't get Evill to add some hooks for a stat system to the GhR plugin, as long as he's adding to it for cheat prevention anyway.

     When a game finishes, the stats for all players are sent to a server, and any interested leagues or websites can poll that server to get the latest data. : )

     Ah, dreams are fun.

[c| Ssickboy]

"Command and Conquer"  vs  "Get the Base!!!"

Ideally LMS is the better style to play.  The one and only problem was:  the terms in which teams won hinged on who had the most lives left at the end of a game.  This allowed the team with the upper-hand to camp in a small protected area of the map.  After one kill, cb's turned into siege matches in which the defending team (more players alive) had a huge advantage suddenly.  Some teams would strategically wait (camped) to get the first kill, and then camped out the rest of the game in that one spot defending their lead.  This was the best way to take advantage of the more aggressively skilled teams.  Once all the teams caught onto this advantage, the clan battles became slow moving and more defensive.  Defense vs defense got us all stuck in long frustrating games.

Essentially even though the more offensive team controlled 85% of the map or more, the defensive team would win by means of strategically camping.

Warzone effectively corrects this.  The team with aggressive map control, finally has the advantage.  But control of the warzone base should only be a secondary deciding factor in a cb.  And the true correct style of LMS (no spawns) should be the primary deciding factor in a battle, the way it should have always been.    

If that team in control of the warzone wants to camp in the base or spread control of the map is their own decision.  Strategies go both ways in taking and controlling the base vs controlling the map.  

My main point here is this:  by adding spawns you take away the control of the map aspect.  The reason is because there would be an area you can never fully control, the opposing spawn point.  When traveling the map you essentially clear the areas you are passing.   Fighting within or at the brink of a spawn point is a sticky issue.   It's hot, and sometimes unpredictable, when really it should be as easy as kill and clear.

By adding spawns we mistakenly emphasize the battle being fought around the control of one central base, instead of evenly emphasizing the effective control of the map or an opposing team.

Not to mention the more intense excitement when playing with only precious life.  

If we want to have a siege-like clan battle with spawns, then I think that should be a whole other ladder, instead of replacing or confusing the classic LMS style.  

The idea of including the warzone game mode was a brilliant adjustment to LMS (Bucc).  And that is all it should be, an adjustment and not a replacement.  

[Mr. Lothario]

     Have you guys played Warzone? It plays out one way and one way only: a footrace for the warzone, then defense of the zone. You complain about defensive camping CBs, yet a no-respawns game of Warzone is exactly that; with one key difference: the team that didn't reach the base first HAS to attack the fortified position, or they'll lose anyway. Arrange some test CBs (public random-noob games play out differently) and try Warzone with no respawns. I suspect that the only thing that will result is an almost guaranteed win for whichever clan spawns closer to the warzone.

[Ssickboy]

Yo Loth

big difference in the type of defensive camping.   Camping in the middle of the map is no easy feat.  For most maps (+0 spawns), I think the team going for and trying to hold the base is gonna struggle more than the team controlling the map.  The team that can manage both will win out.  

you're right, I'ts all theory based on past cb experience and random warzone rooms.  

Let's get some tests going.  Loth I'll take your suggestions as a test challenge, MP vs c|.  

BTs
MOD
X1
one
GG

everyone get involved.  We need answers!!

[-SL- Swiftkill (GE)]

I am completely with C| Splinter on this.  I believe the true test, one which tests skills, memory, tactics, sneakiness, and teamwork, is LMS.  Warzone, in my opinion, is almost worthless and not fun to play.  LMS ALL THE WAY!!!!!

[one Rampage]

I think the lms cbs must stand.  the way it has been has worked fine and ofc with a few minor adjustments, it would be picture perfect(minor adjustments)
as mentioned in a post earlier - lms 0 spawns, really show the skills of each player and team. its a more realistic game, thus more exciting. if people camp and wait for the oposition to come to them...well then they do.
as far as i remember, the top clans of this season where all out and good at it. if a clan camped - they would be hunted down.

i see no reason to change something that has worked so well. warzone should be a whole different ladder for the clans that want that. but my bet is that most of the active clans, would like to see the ladder work the way it has worked(and handled excellently by u guys(kiss ass)

mauti, i suggest that u have a meeting with the leaders of all the active clans, in GR. and let them speak for their clans and offer u their point of view(yeah i know it can be done in forums duh) but active chat can often solve things quicker.
and i do think that the hardcore gamers have more say in matters like this

thanx for all the hard work and the good ideas, but this is not one of them

just my point of view

[one]rampage

[Pyro]

My 2? on the gameplay style of next season's GhR ladder:

Without debating the issues of camping and spawn killing and how the various games cope with them, I would argue that if you are going to add a second ladder, the new Warzone ladder should be the experimental, or "fun" ladder, and the the competitive ladder should remain LMS.  After the text season, we would be in a much better position to decide which style should prevail.  I guess I am seeing it like a new sport in the Olypmics, you have the trial season first to see if it works before making it the standard.

[one Rampage]

now i've read pretty much read all the posts in reg to this topic...and come to the conclusion that this idea is really really bad(as the one ladder)

sorry mauti, u do xcellent work for all of us, but this i feel is destructive for the community. i started playing ghr because of the "realness" and strategy about it. this was after years of action games - ctf etc. ghr is not a everyone run to a destination, shoot em up sorta game. LMS is totally fair, from the getgo, both clans have the same advanteges or not, but it is fair. if a clan camps after a kill...well tough luck, then the clan under, will just have to adjust to that and use even more skills and tactics to get the win or draw. it has been done many times, and most of us can tell u about it.

i dont believe this will solve the camping issue(is it such a big deal?) 4vs4- two hold base(camp) two attack etc etc. i dont think this is the sollution and there are clear spwan and base location dissadvantages on many maps.

im all up for new ideas and constructive changes, but plz plan the warzone ladder as an alternative to the LMS ladder and if it works.

 anyhow, im not pissing on your idea m8, i just have a feeling we might loose people to other games

thanx again

[one] Rampage

 

[Ssickboy]

Like I said the "ideal LMS" is the prefered battle, but LMS the last couple seasons has changed to less than ideal.  

Instead of "come out and fight like a man" type play, its all about counting and protecting your blessings.  the battles are beginging to get less and less interesting because everyone's over protective and not moving.  The control of map has little value.

I had assumed the initial suggestion of the Warzone game mode wasn't to change the battle towards capturing and defending a base, but more about forcing the overprotective teams to come out and fight.  I really like the idea of warzone.  I say keep the spawns to zero, and basicly you have your classic LMS with another little interesting challenge.    

[*DAMN Silent Killer]

Never going to happen, SK.

You dont have imput on whats going to happen, so dont say so

For one, you're intending to exclude some members of this community from it, making it something that *DAMN can't support.

Sounds like *DAMN!/AK Turny, dosnt it??? yah , shut up

Two, most players don't enjoy that kind of bullshit.

Well most players dont like you, so were evan, and who cares, if we get enough ppl to play, mb evan get jeb and some of the other GhR players to come back for it, it would help RS stay alive

Whenever a host restricts something other than C4 or lag guns, I leave instantly, as do lots of people.

Thats because you rely on the PDW, and you cant get a kill without it, ppl bann hbs's, i dont leave, i just adapt something you definatly cant do





Mauti, i beg you to put a ladder up for this, me and gnome have aculy hoped for this for about 1/2 of a year, plz, i think alot of players would join, it would be alot of fun, and will bring back some GhR players because they loved the bs.

Btw you said most C4 matches end in a draw, thats what the tie breakers are, its very fun to, and the matches are C4, Pistols, Skorps, Sniper assult, and Shoties, only one that could end in a tie is c4, and again, thats what the tie breakers are for, plz , i think a 2vs2 ladder would do great for the RS community and bring it back from the grave, thanks
-*DAMN Silent Killer,

p.s Plz

p.p.s  Same as above

p.p.p.s Typhy, your not welcome

[*DAMN Hazard]

Maybe start a thread and get people who would participate to say that they would join the bs ladder and maybe that would give Mauti a reason to actually host it other than that you and gnome want it.

[|3ID| Eagle-One]

I will have to say warzone could be made to work by switching team colors every other round , but I still think it sucks. Especially with respawns !?!? I mean come on guys its the fear of one life that makes a cb thrilling and exciting. Not to be entirely negative I do understand the point made about cb's that teams just camp. I for one like to see a clan who has the balls to hunt down their prey and annhilate their camp zone , an I have seen it happen . Lms is the true game for competition its name denotes it.  LAST MAN STANDING . I would also suggest that if you wanted to add other team games ; then allow them only if challenging team ask for cb of given type and challenged team accepts. Apply lms cb  rules and take out the headache of reformatting the entire battle league. You wanna stop camping eliminate sensors.