philosophy question

[Aramarth]

Suppose you are in the process of pulling someone up a cliff, with a rope, in order to save them from falling. However, at every given opportunity, they resist your upward pull by grabbing onto the rocks in front of them. At what point do you just let them kill themselves and stop pulling?


additions:
You have a some motivation to keep him living beyond just ethics. In addition, you have already begun to spend effort to save him.

[BTs_Mysterio]

I wouldn't have even started.

[Aramarth]

Ah, and people like you also think voting is unimportant, that it isn't our problem if people are dying if it isn't in your front yard, etc. However, if you were holding on and someone else is pulling (ignoring the resistance for a moment), how would you feel if they never pulled to begin with?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Suppose you are attempting to pull someone up a cliff, with a rope, in order to save them from falling. However, at every given opportunity, they resist your upward pull by grabbing onto the rocks in front of them. At what point do you just let them kill themselves and stop pulling?

You find a way to knock them unconcious and then pull their stupid ass up.  I actually had to do this very thing once:

The highest medal I ever recieved is called the Soldiers Medal.  It is ranked higher than my Bronze Star and higher than my Purple Heart.  I got it for rescuing a soldier that went into a panic and was drowning, in full combat gear, in the Adriatic Sea while we were training for operations in the Balkins.  The thing about someone who is panicking in water is that they try to fight you off of them because they literally lose all reasonable thought....I had to beat the guy unconcious before I could finally save him.  Needless to say, he was out of Special Forces after that.

[BTs_FahQ2]

wait, do I know the guy? do I like him? does he owe me money?

I need more input, if it's just some schmo, why get all tired for nothing

[Aramarth]

wait, do I know the guy? do I like him? does he owe me money?

I need more input, if it's just some schmo, why get all tired for nothing

I can add, you have a vested interest in him living. Also, perhaps the phrasing should say, you have already been pulling for a while.

[seth]

At what point do you just let them kill themselves and stop pulling?

thats easy, when you dont have the physical strength anymore

[Aramarth]

thats easy, when you dont have the physical strength anymore

Suppose this rope pulling is just a metaphor bobby. Suppose what you are spending all this effort to accomplish is not physical, but an exchange of ideas.

[Brutha]

Ara, what you are asking us is a difficult question, and is one that mankind has asking for since the beginning of history. Sometimes, and only a very few times, it is right to let go. I cannot answer your question, only you can do that. But look at it this way: Does it at any point seem right for you to let go? The action in itself is not enough to judge if you did enough, the motivation has to be there too. But remember. At one point you must stop. You cannot risk losing yourself. You must not fall. Because if you do, this persons actions has cost two lives...not one.

[Aramarth]

First, thanks for the reply Brutha. You rock.

For myself, the justification for letting go could be that the one I try to save resists. That, and the fact that there are other, perhaps more important battles I could be fighting instead of trying to help the man resisting me at the other end of my rope. Do I ignore the resistance, or move on?

I am sorta in the position now where I have to pick my battles. Years, even months ago, I could fight a whole lot more at the same time. And believe me, there are battles to fight. So then again, we return to, at what point should I let the dangling man fall, when there are, perhaps for the sake of the example, three other people I could be pulling up, who might not resist me?



P.S. GS's comment might work the easiest

[seth]

Ara, what you are asking us is a difficult question, and is one that mankind has asking for since the beginning of history. Sometimes, and only a very few times, it is right to let go. I cannot answer your question, only you can do that. But look at it this way: Does it at any point seem right for you to let go? The action in itself is not enough to judge if you did enough, the motivation has to be there too. But remember. At one point you must stop. You cannot risk losing yourself. You must not fall. Because if you do, this persons actions has cost two lives...not one.

and how do you deal with the guilty feeling that will raise after you've let the other go ? Won't it lead to loose yourself too ?

[Supernatural Pie]

If you've ever seen Lethal Weapon, this may sound familiar:



Tie the rope around yourself and tell them that if they continue resisting, they'll kill you, too, because you'll fall over the cliff with them.

Obviously, if you care enough about this person to try to save them, they may care enough about you to not want to kill you.


------


Going back, I see that Brutha already kind of mentioned this.

[Brutha]

[quote author=bobby link=board=1;threadid=7238;start=0#msg102965

and how do you deal with the guilty feeling that will raise after you've let the other go ? Won't it lead to loose yourself too ?

Yes, you always run a risk of that. Look at it this way: your mother is ill, she might not die, she can be saved, but she will suffer for another year. She is 80. You decide to pull the plug since she donsnt want to live(yeah, a debate on whether youthanasia is ok, is another matter). She might have survived and lived another 5 productive years, so you feel guilty for killing her. But should you? your considerations were unselvish. You did what she wanted. Sometimes guilt is what we hand out to ourselves when we forget the motivations for doing the things we have done. But I have no way of knowing HOW to deal with them once they are there

[Cossack]

Suppose you are attempting to pull someone up a cliff, with a rope, in order to save them from falling. However, at every given opportunity, they resist your upward pull by grabbing onto the rocks in front of them. At what point do you just let them kill themselves and stop pulling?

You find a way to knock them unconcious and then pull their stupid ass up.  I actually had to do this very thing once:

The highest medal I ever recieved is called the Soldiers Medal.  It is ranked higher than my Bronze Star and higher than my Purple Heart.  I got it for rescuing a soldier that went into a panic and was drowning, in full combat gear, in the Adriatic Sea while we were training for operations in the Balkins.  The thing about someone who is panicking in water is that they try to fight you off of them because they literally lose all reasonable thought....I had to beat the guy unconcious before I could finally save him.  Needless to say, he was out of Special Forces after that.

I'll vouch for that. Albeit the people I have saved were not in full combat gear, they do panic, almost always.

As for the question: Pull until you cannot pull anymore or you are putting yourself in unneeded risk.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Responding to Ara:  If there isnt something more demanding of attention, for example someone who -wants- to be saved, and that can be saved.  Though if there is nothing warrenting your attention other than the schmuck who doesnt want his ass to be saved, keep on pulling and try to save him, because you never know.  Like Fah said, he might owe you money, and have it on him, or he might have the pocket-sized version of the fountain of youth, and would make the effort worth it.  Dont mean that literally, but you get the idea.

Responding to GS:  It sucks to drown, and i dont blame the guy for thrashing around as much as he did.  I could go into details, but suffice to say, drowning isnt the most pleasent way to die, though it certainly isnt the worst i could think of, since its just 2 1/2, 3 minutes of painful holding your breath, 2 minutes of franticity, about, then a minute of not having enough cognitive ability to recognize youre drowning.

 I say this because i know from experience.  (Though it was something we were doing for the swim team, down and back underwater, so i think i had an objective to keep myself from panic) Fortunately i passed out right when i hit the shallow-end wall, and was in the process of standing up, so i collapsed backwards over a lane line, otherwise id be feeding the fishes at the bottom of a pool right now.  Whups. Im my bad.  

[.vooDoo.]

why continue to fight him by pulling him to the top? Why not just lower him to the ground?  

[Cossack]

Voodoo is most wise.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

why continue to fight him by pulling him to the top? Why not just lower him to the ground?  

Because you are at the TOP of the cliff and the rope won't reach down that far.  

[BFG]

I have a friend who is a renouned mounteneer and his friend has been in a similar situation.

After a bad accident his friend was badly hurt and he had to get them off the mountain safly. Due to the altitude air rescue was inpossible so it was up to him to get his fried down. On reaching a ice climb he had to lower his friend down - not knowing exactly how long the face was. To cut a long story short (no pun intended) he ran out of rope and got to the point when his friend was hanging below him and he had not the strengh to pull him up. He was stuck. He had to either cut the rope or risk having them both pulled of the mountain. his friend told him to cut him free...  He did. His friend fell down the remainder of the fall and into a ice chasm... unbelievably with two broken legs and numerouse other injuries hi managed to haul himself up and out of the chasm and litterally dragged himself down the mountain to the village where his friend had returned to call for help. Its a story of unimaginable strengh and bravery... and a call to cut the rope which must be so so difficult.

There is a film about the events called... shit i can't remember (no thats not the name, but i really can't remember)
- edit: yes i can. its called "touching the void" -

The guys call this guy "chopper" its bit of a mountineer's joke between them... its a weird world

[seth]

- edit: yes i can. its called "touching the void" -

The guys call this guy "chopper" its bit of a mountineer's joke between them... its a weird world

i saw that movie, it was beautifull, yet incredible, unbelievable. You need to watch that movie in order to see what a man's mind can do over his body.