Madrid Bombings

[KGB]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3510142.stm

These cowardly attacks in Madrid are just disgusting and should be condoned in every way.
The way Aznar and the Spanish government has tried to use these
Events to gain political favour by swiftly blaming the ETA, is very bad karma.
Just after the attacks the Spanish intelligence services already suspected Islamic
Fundamentalists. But Spanish government failed to include these speculations
In their press releases and continued with the ETA lead.
My feelings are with the hundreds of families who lost a loved one.

As for taking the guilty ones to justice, all for it.
But for every terrorist caught or killed there a ten of these fuckers who will take their place.
Waging WAR against terrorism just creates more terrorists

[BFG]

Someone somwhere (points no fingers) said somthing along the lines of how they were proud their country was going to war in the name of peace... or somthing along those lines.. like KGB said, for each one captured, and made a martyr, another 10 step forward into his/her shoes.
You cannot win a literal war on terrorism. You can however in some situations solve the issues that cause terrorists to do what they do... Wars have to have two sides, if you fight someone will always fight back

[|MP|Buccaneer]

As for taking the guilty ones to justice, all for it.
But for every terrorist caught or killed there a ten of these fuckers who will take their place.
Waging WAR against terrorism just creates more terrorists

One small correction for you and BFG.

Waging war against terrorism the way it's usually done, just creates more terrorists.  I say the gloves come fucking off.  Start to fight dirty.  Cut the heart out of the cause.  Fear is a much more stable emotion than love is, time to make the terrorists afraid.  Time to give them a little "terror" of their own.  There are things worse than death, fuck "cruel and unusual", use them.  For instance, if these were Native American terrorists, instead of a nice burial after execution, mutilate the bodies and have it publicly known.  So that they know if they are caught, it's not paradise they will find from being a martyr.  Same principle applies to most religious zealots.  Just use the tools that they have been brainwashed with against them.  They think dying in jihad gives them a ticket to paradise, I say revoke that ticket, using whatever means necessary.  Brutality as a tool.

It's not like there is a choice to fight terrorism or not.  The only other choice is to surrender to it, and what will that accomplish?  I'll tell you, more terrorists that think it's the way to get things accomplished.  

We all have to fight terrorism, or it will become the norm.  

[Cutter]

bucc for pres in '04!  

[Cossack]

In other news. The Spanish Prime Minister Anzar (however you spell it in the latin alphabet) was just defeated by the socialist canidate. This makes me think, did he let this terror attack go through the cracks for political gain? The expected response from the people was that they would start waving flags like the American's did in 9/11, however it seems the Spaniards resolved this via ballot box. Maybe Spain will pull its support? We will soon see what happens to this "Coalition of the Willing" when the inhabitants of these states start to vote.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Sorry, but if there were some conspiracy to ignore terrorist attacks to get votes, then he'd be one of the dumbest people on the face of the earth.  First, defeating the attacks would have been better for votes, second, he didn't put enough spin on it afterwards.  As a matter of fact, no campaigning was done afterwards.

No, the terrorists themselves may have been motivated by the elections, but I don't see the gain from the government letting them happen, not when they didn't even try to press the political gain from it.

[Cossack]

Well lets put it in a hypothetical situation. Say if Dubya let 9/11 happen right before the 04 elections (it wouldnt be 9/11 it would be something less catchy like 10/30 or something but you get my drift). Now would his approval ratings skyrocket like they did in real life? Didnt the right wing canidate Anzar try to pass it as ETA and somewhat unsuccesfully mobilize Spain to go on a crusade against the ETA? They did try to put a political spin on it but they failed.

However that was a minor point in my post and it was mostly me thinking outloud. The point that I give in the post that should be taken into consideration is the fact about elections in other countries. When opponents to the War say that the international community is against the war they are not talking about the governments of other countries, but the people in other countries. England's war poll was something like 30-70 and rose to 50-50 when it started. A poll among Spaniards put them at a 90% disapproval of the war. Similar numbers can be found in Italy, Poland, the Netherlands, Denmark, Lithuania, etc. Many of these governments may be replaced in the next election in those respective countries.

[Cutter]

yup aznar was voted out. and most likely the bombings played a big part in the elections. the socialist party won the election and they plan to pull all spanish troops out of iraq. thus giving the terrorists exactly what they wanted. terrorists 1 spain 0.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Yes, the Socialists in Spain didn't win this, the terrorists did, because Spain did exactly what the terrorists wanted.  Which goes back to an earlier point I had...if the terrorists don't like something, then I'm all for it.

On another note, following the lines of Buccs suggestion...

Let's torture these fuckers on national television for all the world to see....especially show it on that Arab news channel that runs all of Bin Ladin's speaches all the time.  I assume that doing this would make the terrorists fly out of the woodwork in mass desparate acts of terrorism, at which time we catch them and torture a new group of terrorists.  If you inflame the terrorists so badly that they strike out in provoked anger in this way, you will have a much better chance of catching them because they wont have spent years piecing together an act of terrorism like they did on 9/11.  When I was a Ranger in the Army, we actually thought out some of these scenarios but of course at that time (early 90's) they were considered a little excessive (we were working with the SAS and the Israelis at the time who thought the idea had merit).

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[BFG]

Let's torture these fuckers on national television for all the world to see

Surprise surprise i picked that line out eh? Firstly, bucc i do agree on one sense, that a conventional war against terrorism does not work, has not worked (look at afgansistan).. i would say iraq but that wasn't about terrorism. hell iraq is the only damn country in the world to want to have absolutly and totally no link with al-quida or binladen.. anway.

The more you make people feel they are being persecuted the more likely they will want to resist..

If you regard torture as an option im not sure what to say, other than you are simply doing to others what you are fighting to stop them from doing. What makes you any better than them? The torture that people have suffered and suffer in this world is horrific, please don't even talk about civilised goverments etc using this as a 'techneque' to fight terrorism... its like saying lets be terrorists to fight terrorists.

However more effective ways to prevent these attacks have to be found.... It cant go on like this.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

We could also repeal the Constitutional rights of freedom of speech, press and assembly, to make it easier for our government to find terrorists. Then we could make a series of work camps for all Muslims in the United States, in which they are forced to watch Mel Gibson's Passion Of The Christ, over and over again. After that we could start our own 'final solution' to terrorism, in which all suspects are immediately beheaded, and their corpses could be strung up on the Washington monument.

Terror=more terror, War=more terror, until there is a Palestinian state, a resolution to the situation in Kashmir, the removal of U.S. troops from the middle east, and the removal from George W. Bush from the presidency, there will be terror attacks that increase in destructive nature during the course of time.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

that a conventional war against terrorism does not work, has not worked (look at afgansistan)

Actually, we can't say if that conventional war on terrorism has been successful or not.  There hasn't been an attack on the US or UK, but it's not like there have been that often either, so we can't actually draw an intelligent conclusion either way, just speculate.

If you regard torture as an option im not sure what to say, other than you are simply doing to others what you are fighting to stop them from doing. What makes you any better than them?

Nope.  Wrong.  Thanks for playing.

Torturing a fucking criminal asshole like that is not the same as leaving bombs on trains.  Sorry, I don't buy it.

These people expect to die, yes.  These people are willing to die in most cases, for their cause.  So you simply executing them isn't enough.  You have to make the cost too high.  There just isn't another choice.

If you give in, terrorists win, if you don't fight, terrorist continue, if you fight not to win, terrorists continue.  It's simply a lack of options.  Make it too costly to be a terrorist.

The torture that people have suffered and suffer in this world is horrific, please don't even talk about civilised goverments etc using this as a 'techneque' to fight terrorism... its like saying lets be terrorists to fight terrorists.

Bin Laden has suffered?  Really?  I'd love to suffer with his money sometime.

As for the foot soldiers, fuck them.  I have sympathy for those that endure the suffering.  I do not have sympathy for those that resort to terrorism.  They are no longer human.  You plant a bomb on a train full of innocent, unsuspecting people, you are no longer a victim in any sense of the word in my book.  Fuck 'em.

BTW, I'm also for public floggings.  I think society has gone way too soft on criminals.  That there needs to actually be negative reinforcement, not just incarceration.  Pain can be a great teacher.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

We could also repeal the Constitutional rights of freedom of speech, press and assembly, to make it easier for our government to find terrorists. Then we could make a series of work camps for all Muslims in the United States, in which they are forced to watch Mel Gibson's Passion Of The Christ, over and over again.

You do realize that I'm one of the foremost haters of the so-called "patriot act" around here, right?

Due process and cruel and unusual punishment are two completely different things.  And we redefined "cruel and unusual" in the last 50 years.  When it was written, stocks and floggings were not considered cruel or unusual.

until there is a Palestinian state, a resolution to the situation in Kashmir, the removal of U.S. troops from the middle east, and the removal from George W. Bush from the presidency, there will be terror attacks that increase in destructive nature during the course of time.

Pardon me, but bullshit.  Terrorism was here long before Bush.  And it's not all the middle east.  Don't forget that 9/11 was the thrid time that just the World Trade Center was targeted.  Look at the Oklahoma City bombing, that had nothing to do with Palestine, Kashmir, the Middle East, or George W Bush.

Terrorism is an old tool, used by many countries, religions, governments, groups, et al.  As long as a small group of people is willing to commit mass murder to see that it's agenda is met, we'll have terrorism.  Until the price becomes too high that is.  That's the key.

I don't care if Israel picked up shop and moved to North Dakota out of the Middle East, terrorism would still be a fact of life, just over other causes (or does nobody realize all the other terrorism out there, or the fact that some of these fanatics don't care about Palestine, it's just an excuse, they'd hate and kill the jews anyway, or find another group to hate (like the different sects of Islam *cough * Iraq * cough*)

Also, if Israel did pick up and move, it would just encourage the terrorists that their methods work.

[c| Spetsnaz.]

Pardon me, but bullshit.  Terrorism was here long before Bush.  And it's not all the middle east.  Don't forget that 9/11 was the thrid time that just the World Trade Center was targeted.  Look at the Oklahoma City bombing, that had nothing to do with Palestine, Kashmir, the Middle East, or George W Bush.

Terrorism is an old tool, used by many countries, religions, governments, groups, et al.  As long as a small group of people is willing to commit mass murder to see that it's agenda is met, we'll have terrorism.  Until the price becomes too high that is.  That's the key.


I don't care if Israel picked up shop and moved to North Dakota out of the Middle East, terrorism would still be a fact of life, just over other causes (or does nobody realize all the other terrorism out there, or the fact that some of these fanatics don't care about Palestine, it's just an excuse, they'd hate and kill the jews anyway, or find another group to hate (like the different sects of Islam *cough * Iraq * cough*)

Also, if Israel did pick up and move, it would just encourage the terrorists that their methods work.

Just my opinion, but i don't think Bush's unilateralist argessive foreign policy will help to quell the scourge of international terrorism, especially for future generations. Were the other two attacks on the twin towers not from Islamic fundamentalist groups? As for the Oklahoma city bombers, their motivation is not nearly as ideologically palatable to be a significant terrorist movement.

What about a large group of people willing to commit mass murder to see that it's agenda is met, would that still be terrorism, or could we just call that war? When will the price be too high? When there's no one left to kill? Just asking, you seem to have al the answers I don't.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Just my opinion, but i don't think Bush's unilateralist argessive foreign policy will help to quell the scourge of international terrorism, especially for future generations.

I don't think Bush's fascism will help, no.  I think Bush is an asshole.

Were the other two attacks on the twin towers not from Islamic fundamentalist groups?

The Towers were attacked by Islamic Fundamentalists, but not when George W was president (the older attacks both lacked the strength to actually bring the towers down).  But my point was, it wasn't because of George W.

As for the Oklahoma city bombers, their motivation is not nearly as ideologically palatable to be a significant terrorist movement.

Ideologically palatable has nothing to do with it's significance in my opinion.  Did they kill lots of lots of innocent people in a senseless attack to promote their agenda?  They are terrorist in my book.  Thankfully, their movement died off with their capture.  Though the Michigan Militia lives on.

What about a large group of people willing to commit mass murder to see that it's agenda is met, would that still be terrorism, or could we just call that war? When will the price be too high? When there's no one left to kill? Just asking, you seem to have al the answers I don't.

Not all the answers, just some.

As for a large group of people willing to commit mass murder to see it's agenda met, I call them Nazi's =D.  

There is a difference between countries invading countries, armies fighting armies.  When Iraq invaded Kuwait, it was not terrorism, it was war (along with quite a few war crimes).  When one of the Islamic sects of Iraq starts gassing, burning, and other ways killing another islamic sect in Iraq, most of which are civilians, many women and children, that's terrorism within that country.


But really, is there another option that will stop terrorism?  Other than making it too big a price for them to pay?  It's not a great solution, but it is a lack of options.

[alaric]

Just wanted to voice my support for the last few posts bucc has made in this thread. I don't have anything else to add to the discussion at this point but I wanted people to know he's not standing alone here.

[BFG]

.... No is spetnaz, athoughough i agree with elements of what bucc says.

Ok. so.
Of course, everbody awaiting the death penalty in this world must deserve it, there can't be guys say on the US death row who got stitched up, who's defence lawyers were totally incapable, who just didn't get the fair trial... or a mistake was made with evidance... that could never happen could it........
      So just the 'terrorists' are going to get tortured and excecuted? thats nice. And that would be exactly by who's definition of a 'terrorist'? the US? Not being funny but China is allready doing what we talk about... and so does israel.. infact israeil has a 'secret' base for *cough* interregation.... Some of the accounts and physical endurance of those men women, kids who have been withheld and 'interrorgated' beggers belive. of course everyone says it dosn't exist exept for the few people to have spoken about it, the pictures of it, and the indepth research done by parties into its existance.. but hey if the UK won't comment, the US veto's and Israil refuses its existance it can't exist can it becasue that would be daft!
 And i sure most of will you will know about China's record regarding torture... and the number of people that are excecuted. However what perchance will stop countries from following suit in the torture and excecution of what they deem to be 'terrorists'.... As so many peoplle here love to say, america is the worlds only super power, and most recently it likes to make sure that everyone is aware of that... and that their lives are made a little more difficult if they don't...be it economic, political or physical etc... And people (and they are and have done in other situations) will simply say "well america, the defenders of democracy do it so it must be ok"...

As for a large group of people willing to commit mass murder to see it's agenda met, I call them Nazi's =D.?

Yes... And nobody exactly wants to see the nazi ideology back again... Mass murder in the goal of an ideal.

Don't get me wrong, firstly im not saying lets roll over on our backs while these guys run around with bombs blowing the hell out of the world, but then again i don't see torture and excecution as the answer... With everything in life, its always a better idea to solve a source of a problem once and for all, rather than deal with the produce of the sorce again and again and agan.

Back to the problem... torture the terrorists... well how u going to do that if they have allready blown themselves up? You'd need better intellegence and to know what they were going to do.. And stop them before they blow themselfs, a towerblock, a train, and a lot of people up...  or hey here's an idea, you could try and find the sorce of the terrorism and address that problem.

I don't think torturing and publicly displaying the 'pieces' is ever going to be an option, firstly the rest of the civilized world will hopfully outcast you for it, secondly it will outrage those behind the terrorists and who support their ideas so much that they will double their efforts...

We shouldn't roll over and do nothing... but we can't get the idea that they will too.

So much of this is theoretical and hyperthetical thinking of course..

[|MP|Buccaneer]

With everything in life, its always a better idea to solve a source of a problem once and for all, rather than deal with the produce of the sorce again and again and agan.

How do you solve the source problem that some people are just fucking animals?  Riddle me that.  Sorry, but I don't buy into the claim that these are all poor, hungry, downtrodden people that have no hope, that's bullshit.  Deep bullshit.  How much money does bin laden have?  Have the Irish really been treated that bad, or is the cause just romantic?  Look at the home grown terrorism we have here in America, most examples are not from the poor (though that's where the neo nazi's do tend to recruit from).  

Before you can talk about curing the source problem BFG, you sure as hell better know what the source problem is.  Terrorism was going on in the Middle East before Israel came along.  

BTW, for you history buffs out there, when Israel was much more brutal in it's dealings (and oh man, were they worse) they had much less of a problem.  I'm not saying that their methods were right (removing any village that the terrorists came from, and stuff like that), but we did see that it was pretty damn effective back then.  While they are still brutal, they are not to that degree anymore.

One more point.  Just because I say make it too costly to be a terrorist, doesn't mean I'm for suspending the rights of individuals BFG.  If you've ever read my stance on the Patriot Act, you should understand that.  But there are cases where we've caught the terrorist.  We do have some in custody.  And in the case of the Oklahoma City bombing, yes, execution was too soft.  Generally, I'm against the death penalty, both because you can kill the wrong man, and because it doesn't work as deter people like it's meant to, because it takes so damn long and is done behind closed doors.  

But in the case of these guys that kill hundreds and thousands of innocent people, ON PURPOSE (not like collateral damage in a war, these were TARGETS), death is too good for them.  Sorry, but this isn't really a gentile world, and I'm not a gentile guy.

So when you have animals that believe killing hundres or thousands (or millions even in some cases), the cause isn't because they live in a shit hole.  Not because Israel  has taken land and their people are fighting them.  No.  That's not the root cause.  That's cause to start a war.  That's cause to attack the military.  That's cause to move the fuck out.  But not to set off a bomb on a train.  Or in the middle of the market, or in a school, or a church.  Once they've crossed that line, they've given up their rights to be a human in my book.  And you now use them to set an example why nobody else should follow in those shoes.  

Another little something that can help stop terrorists (lessons learned from Israel and even the USA in it's dealings with the KKK).  Don't let the locals harbor them.  Israel did it, not well, but again, it worked while they did it.  The USA did it better.  We haven't come close to ridding ourselves of the root cause (racism), but we have stopped the vast majority of the KKK's doings.  See, if it costs the people too much to protect them, or turn a blind eye to them, they wont.  This is most effective when done on the government scale.  Face it, we know there are governments that allow the terrorists to come and go, to have training camps, etc.  The US was even guilty of that in the case of Cuba.  Cuba wasn't in the position to do anything about it (but they would have been justified in my opinion), but if it had been the other way, Cuba harboring terrorists, helping them train, helping them in get in the USA, then by all means, I think an invasion of Cuba (or bombing of a few military bases) is in order.  In most countries, harboring a criminal is a crime in itself.  That should count on the international level as well.  Right is still right.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Terror=more terror, War=more terror, until there is a Palestinian state, a resolution to the situation in Kashmir, the removal of U.S. troops from the middle east, and the removal from George W. Bush from the presidency, there will be terror attacks that increase in destructive nature during the course of time.

WTF Spets!  Are you Bin Ladin's personal spokesman now?  Cause you sure sound a lot like him in that statement.  Since when do we start giving in to terrorist demands?  So we are supposed to just do what the terrorists want, do all those things you say and *POOF* it all goes away and the little terrorists go back to their homes to live in peace?  Are you kidding me?  You give in to their demands and do those things and not only will the terrorists have won, but you will have given them what they need to launch a WORLD WAR against Western Civilization.  If you think giving in to their demands will ever stop them, then you are as crazy as that stupid fuck running France right now.  You can never give in to terrorist demands.

Give a mouse a slice of cheese and you know what happens?

He wants a glass of milk to go with it.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[PLOPje]

Wow offcourse its to much to give the terrorists what they want??
Is it so hard to just get all of your troops back to the us? Is that asked to much?
you say the terrorist won from spain??? Spain never wanted to send troops to iraq before so I see this as a victory for spain. And yes I believe that if the spain goverment never supported the us those bombings wouldnt have took place, like many people in spain that also blame aznar for it.
The only solution you guys see is wipe all the people out in a country.
You guys just dont want to see that you need to fix the source, you guys are to proud for that.
Ghostsniper you really think they will start a worldwar? Your are more crazy then the president of france. YOu think that terrorist just want the worldpower?
In Palestina house gets destroyed by bombs,tanks,bulldozers people live in a prison there there is a night clock, their leader is locked up, they get evicted of their land so jews can come and live there,...
In ireland you got those religious war (most stupid thing ever) childs that go to school needed police protection because they went trhough a neighberhood that had another religion. Whole ireland gets to be independent except that little piece... think its frustrating if you live there and hoped so much to get independent.
In middle east american soldiers are asked to leave after duno what war because islams dont like them being on the "holy ground", americans just say no and stay...

Its not bush fault for all this but hes making it worse and doesnt stop it