Raven Shield Rule Discussion

[*DAMN Hazard]

I think restricting extra magazines is a good idea. That format is kind of like the format I posted I think we should open up a separate thread for cb structure and rules very soon like we did for GhR.

[Typhy]

I disagree with a lot of things on there.

For starters, as I said about third person view earlier, there is no doubt in my mind that third person should be allowed.

Also, why restrict Hi-Cap Mags? I carry a hi-cap in both my TMP and my MK23. Why should they be restricted? I see no justification for that. As far as I can see, they don't cause lag, or frame drop, or any of that shit. Makes no sense to me.

I also disagree with using a random map selection. Let's face it, some maps in RvS just suck. I think the best way to work is to find a way to use at least 4 maps in each CB.

[*DAMN Hazard]

Because people purposely shoot off their tmp's to lag me and then kill me.

[Typhy]

Lol, get over it, Haz. You can do the exact same thing with an M249.

[*DAMN Hazard]

Sorry I thought actually reloading added a certain flavor to the game....

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

They should be restricted because the consensus is that only noobs use them. It takes absolutely no skill to fly around the corner spraying all 101 bullets you have without having to think of reloading or bullet conservation. This is not the same as a M249 because the M249 is not accurate, has extra large reticules, and doesn't have a scope. Sure you could spray with the M249, but you are not likely to hit much with it unlike an assault rifle or submachine gun with cmags.

As for 3rd person, if it were allowed, it would enable clan members to view through the dead bodies of other clan members with a full rotational view, thus making a corpse essentially a camera.

For random maps, that is something that would be changed for the Mac because PC's have an automated map selector and set times for matching...since *DAMN obviously doesn't have that set up, it would probably be the same selection mechanism like it was for Rogue Spear.

[*DAMN Hazard]

Not to mention it makes it easier for campers. By that I mean no reloading for them so no opportunity for you to rush in and take him out while he is vulnerable, but instead he has 90 bullets left even after camping your teamate(s). I just don't like the idea of not reloading, not to mention it makes a secondary weapon useless. I think extra long mags should not be used.

[Typhy]

Sin, as I said in earlier topics, perhaps being able to view through third person ( I would restrict free camera, though ), is a bit cheap, however, it makes the game a lot more fun. Isn't that what CBs are about?

In terms of Hi-Cap mags, in the case of my TMP, it holds 31 shots w/o the hi-cap, 51 with it. That's not a huge difference, and with the TMP's rate of fire, a hi-cap mag is very important.

The L85A1 and Aug both take about 5 seconds to discharge all their ammo w/o hi-cap mags. That's plenty of fire to pick up kills in most situations.

More importantly, Hi-Cap mags are part of the game. They slow down the reticule in exchange for an advantage.

[alaric]

Hi-Cap mags are a vital part of the game. They add a flexibility in weapons choices not previously available. You can turn a weapon that was essentially useless before into a good, solid weapon.

The added ammo capacity and added stability are balanced by the slower reticule. With Hi-Cap mags you don't get any more ammo than normal. This might actually work against spammers, you run out of ammo faster.

I also think that you should force first person weapons. This is an important part of the game in my opinion. Part of the balancing of the game includes blocking part of your view when using larger weapons.

[kos.viper]

The no cmag rule makes sense to me.  It's like a person w/ an m60 running around, except w/ greater accuracy and closer range.  We referred to that gun as the "noob cannon" in Tac Ops.  If you are going to have  PDW w/ 101 rounds in it, you could go the whole round just using burst and never have to reload.

The rule seems to scream, learn how to aim.

[KoS.Rebel]

Im all for running it the same way we ran the RS league. Exactly the same, except force first person in death. Sry Typhy but im not in the mood to get owned by netfone (some noob saying "I've got u in third and dont move ill tell you when some1 is coming". U say it didnt pose a problem back in RS? How else did KoS pull off some amazing kills? Its called ghosting. I know u know what ghosting is and i know u dont like it when some1 gives off ur position because they can see third.

[Typhy]

Rebel, I'd take getting ghosted to add some fun to the game.

Here, everyone, read this fucking post:

I don't give a shit. I know that third person is cheap, and that it can make for some cheap kills. However, it makes it more fun to spectate! Yes, more fun; remember guys? Fun? What games are suppose to be about?

Viper, my opinion of that rule screams "it's part of the fucking game!"

Shall we take out gas? Or are gas masks considered cheap sense they counter gas to effectivly without covering any of the screen. Should we remove masks? HB sencors can be used cheaply. It's unreasonable to expect a team to set jammers throughout the entire map, so HB sencors make for nice camping weapons. Should we ban those? The TMP has a high rate of fire which makes for spray & pray style tactics, should we remove that? HB pucks and stationary expolsives ( remote charge, c4, etc. ) set themselves up for use as camper weapons. Shall we remove those? Weapons like the M249 with large ammo capacity, but slow recoils set themselves up as spray and pray weapons, or as camper weapons. Shall we ban those?

I could make an argument for banning almost every kit item and weapon in the game. The best counter-argument: They're part of the fucking game.

[?Kill!Kill!]

If the Hi-cap mags can be selected within the game, then back off lamers who want to ban them--wtf?  And sure I like to ghost but of course Typhy supports third person because he thinks he and his clan can outghost you all!  That is a valid debate but banning hi-cap mags--design your own fps game wussies!  Why dont you select countermeasures (which might include your own hi-cap mags) and try to win WITHIN THE GAMES FORMAT!

[Toxic::Joka]

Fun? What games are suppose to be about?

Games should be about fun, cb's should be about competing. Playing the game in itself should be fun enough. The simple fact is that if allowed it would be used to see over or around various obstacles.

[crypt]

Viper, my opinion of that rule screams "it's part of the fucking game!"

Shall we take out gas? Or are gas masks considered cheap sense they counter gas to effectivly without covering any of the screen. Should we remove masks? HB sencors can be used cheaply. It's unreasonable to expect a team to set jammers throughout the entire map, so HB sencors make for nice camping weapons. Should we ban those? The TMP has a high rate of fire which makes for spray & pray style tactics, should we remove that? HB pucks and stationary expolsives ( remote charge, c4, etc. ) set themselves up for use as camper weapons. Shall we remove those? Weapons like the M249 with large ammo capacity, but slow recoils set themselves up as spray and pray weapons, or as camper weapons. Shall we ban those?

I could make an argument for banning almost every kit item and weapon in the game. The best counter-argument: They're part of the fucking game.

Typhy, it may be a part of the game, and fun out of cb, but in cb, you know that a lot of clans would do whatever it takes to win, so they might lag the hell out of everyone with full auto spray, as for 3rd person, I used it in GhR to view from a body, but I never liked doing it, so I think it should go as well as high cap mags.

[alaric]

Regarding Hi-Cap mags:

If the additional capacity didn't affect the weapon in any way other than to simply have a larger clip, I would agree to ban them. However, it affects how the weapon handles making some weapons useless with the hi-cap and others more useful. This adds more flexibility into the game which is a good thing.

If you take away hi-cap mags, you take away half the weapons, which makes the game more predictable. In a cb, predictability = boring. This was the main problem in ghr cbs, the weapons (among other things) were not balanced and this made the cbs very predictable. It would be a shame to see the same happen to RvS.

Like every other underhanded tactic a clan might use to win a cb, there are ways to negate the usefulness of spamming weapons. I suggest that rather than whine about how you're always getting spammed, you adapt and develop tactics to counteract them. That is what always (in any game) seperates the good clans from the best clans, Tactics.

[Typhy]

Fun? What games are suppose to be about?

Games should be about fun, cb's should be about competing. Playing the game in itself should be fun enough. The simple fact is that if allowed it would be used to see over or around various obstacles.

Perhaps what you mean to say is something like this:

The fun brought by being able to view through third person is contridicted by the lack of fun involved in getting ghosted.

I really can't argue with it. Perhaps it's because I come from Rogue Spear; I honestly don't think that there are many people out there willing to be cheap enough to take full advantage of ghosting.

By blocking free third person camera, we'd remove the possibility of being able to watch a teamate's back through third, and it'd merely have the use of looking around corners. In my opinion, a minor thing, when you consider that in most cases, it's safer to peak around the corner than to spent 10 seconds trying to get into the perfect posistion so that your teamate on NF can see.

Perhaps I'm wrong. Perhaps there are people out there willing to find a corner, and use third person to peak out, and tell their teamate as soon as an enemey comes. However, what's this tell you? If a clan is desperate enough to need to do this, doesn't that relect poorly upon their skills? Should we really regard a clan who needs to do this as a threat?

The reason that I want to allow third person isn't just to make the game more fun - which I think it would do. It's also to try and point out that if a clan is so intent on winning that they'll use any cheap means nesscesary, then we're not going to stop them. Just like what I said about cheat tests back at GHR, if players are so intent on winning that they're willing to cheat, they'll find other ways. Why should we make the game less fun for those of us who don't play cheaply in order to try and prevent ( uselessly, I might add ), against those players who do?

Ok, those of you who are here for the Hi-Cap Mag debate may now begin reading

Typhy, it may be a part of the game, and fun out of cb, but in cb, you know that a lot of clans would do whatever it takes to win, so they might lag the hell out of everyone with full auto spray

Why should it be any different with guns like the M249? You're ( the anti hi-cap group of people ) trying to argue two points. Each of which makes the other one invalid. You can either complain that they don't take enough skill, where as light machine guns do, or you can complain that they can lag the game. If the first one is used, the second one is invalid.

Like I said about third person, if a clan is that desperate, and needs to use tactics like Crypt mentioned in order to win, what's that say about their skill level? Should we regard clans like that as a threat? Or should we just accept the fact that while that may work some of the time, and may get them a few fluke wins, they're not going to be at the top of the ladder, and you can just avoid playing them.

[KoS.Rebel]

Does anyone think Typhy would be a good defendant for Saddam? He seems to always support the shitty things in games.....odd. I can see it now. KoS vs MP5 and ult tells me typhy is around a corner. So i take my gun and just strat SPRAYING and he gets pwned. Then he bitches that im a noob. Sorry Typhy but no matter how much you defend it, its still ghei and pointless not to ban it. Im all for the ban.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

I say first person view only.. keep extra ammo mags, i dont realy like hear beat sensors but i dont care if they are allowed or not.

[alaric]

Before the discussion on hi-cap mags goes any farther, I'd like everyone to check out the Stey Aug with a hi-cap.

This is by far the most unbalanced weapon combo in the game. When you fire on full auto the ret doesn't even budge and your view barely knocks around. I am able to hit targets at range on full auto while running diagonally, and that's just wrong. In cqb the high ammo capacity makes it an excellent spamming weapon.

This is the only reason I can find to ban hi-caps, and it's a damn good one. I'm not ready to say that we should ban hi-caps just yet, but I think it's definetly worth more investigation and debate.