Terrorism Debate

[Another thing ...]

I must admit my MAC is made in the U.S.A.

cool. But (just to make the 2 nerds mad) the whole united states where (merely) founded by Europeans.

and yes: the english language originally comes from ENGLAND (as the name already indicates) - thats no reason to be ashame of - but i guess ace and black will be unable to accept this.

[Bander lalala]

"I stand proud, just as the rest of my country has done. Bander, can you tell me the same? "

Yes.

[jn.blackhand]

Ace, this argument is futile. Bander is lashing out at anybody who disagrees with him. He doesn't even read our posts, for if he did he would see that we were the ones long before this thread was started, telling people not to make racial slurs, not to judge people because of their race, religion or nationality.

Bander, sigh. You're a biggot. You're ignorant. You're idiotic.

If you would read my posts you'd see that I have NEVER suggested that we kill innocent people or that I think an American life is worth more than other lives. You accuse me of all this bullshit, but when have I said something that actually supports your fucked-up theories?

Since when am I a hater the Islamic nation or any other religion? Since when do I hate Europe or Afghanistan? Quote me Bander. Cmon, I want to see a quote of mine that shows that I am what you say I am.

I'm not going to argue with you anymore, it's pointless. How do argue with someone who is so narrow-minded.

This isn't me trying to be friends with you and this isn't me saying that you're right. This is me saying I'm a bigger man than you and I won't waste my time trying to convince an oaf that he is stupid.

I'm proud of my country, proud of my freedom, proud of my rights, and proud of all the members of tis forum who have been sympathetic, helpful, and reasonable.

For what it's worth, though I will never say the USA is the greatest country on earth (I don't believe there is a country anywhere worthy of the title), I will say that it's damn close to being the greatest, and I thank god for letting me live in such a wonderful country.

Oh and few little things before I go:

1. England may have built the first computer, but the US are the ones who have pioneered the technology. What do I mean by that? We are the ones who have made possible the computing world today. Need proof? Bill Gates. Steve Jobs. IBM. Intel. Apple. Motorola. AMD.

2. The English language came from England, of course. But would English be such a vital language to learn if the US was not the power it is?

[Ace]

Well, with my partner in assing being the bigger man, I guess I have no choice to to try and live up to that standard.

I would just like to make a couple things clear. I never, NEVER said anything about arabs or muslims as a whole. I only made comments about small groups who deserved my insults. In fact, I have told many people (in real life, not the forums) repeatedly to quit using terms such as "raghead"

While blackhand may not share my uninhibited nationalistic pride, I am not ashamed of it one bit, nor do I think there is anything wrong with it. I still contend that I live in the greatest nation in the world. I also will still contend that the life of an American soldier is more valuable than the lives of the soldiers they fight against.

Finally, Bander, I would like you to contemplate why you know English so well? Is it because England has such a profound impact on you?

[postmaster]

"But (just to make the 2 nerds mad) the whole united states where (merely) founded by Europeans."

And your point is Bander? Europeans originated (merely) from Africa, and Humans (merely) evolved from Ape-like creatures. Our point is that even though America was founded by some dissident Euros, we have made ourselves independent or Europe and now it is Europe trying to emulate us.

One word describes you: HYPOCRITE.

[Grifter]

Bander... I have a new word for you to learn in your well informed life... it's hypocrisy.  You spit on me.....?  Fuck you.  I'm no child, I'm probably older then you.  I'm no ugly american, and I am most sure that I am not uneducated....  And I've probably worked in more countries then you have been too (and don't give me the shit about Europeans traveling all over.... some Americans do as well).  I have worked in Germany..... I spent much time there, in England and Brazil setting up the systems I worked on at Ford.  I also traveled while I was over there.  Some more info about me... I think I mentioned that I live in the bigest moslem area in North America... that the Iman from one of the Masks came to our church, to pray with us (I was there instead of at the CB with KoS).  Also, just FYI, Ace and I have talked about my Scottish blood... but the rest of it happens to be Native American... so I have my own views of this nation, and when it really began.

Now... a quote from Bander:

Grift and the others here who waste my once so beloved forums: Go to hell with your advices to me how to "discuss" here. I dont care what people like u think about me - u are not the kind of people i wanna have props from. and i dont care if i loose your respect - i spit on your "respect" - u are unable to respect human life at all - so i dont need your fukcing idiot respect at all. ?[/list][/color]

Hmmmm..... I am unable to respect human life..... I said that somewhere?  I even hinted that??  Bullshit.  Take your well informed ass and READ MY FUCKING POSTS YOU ASSHOLE.  

Jeez... what's this.. I was the first one to come to Bander's defense?  I spoke out against hate towards all Arab and Moslems?  I said that bombing and killing innocents would be terrible?  I said we need to concentrate on finding the guilty and only punishing them??  Damn... I did say those things, didn't I!

Oh, wait, Bander now wants to talk about America's violence.... about us dropping the bomb.... yes, great loss of life.... but wait.... what's this... I seem to remember that it was the Nazi's (led by that short little Austrian dude.. emmm.. HITLER) that were working on that first... that would have had it if they had the time to finish.... wait... more... wasn't it that short little Austrian dude that was behind many more innocent deaths then were caused by the A Bombs??  Bander... if you are going to use history (which is one of the things I advised not be brought into this), then you are in trouble.  Because EVERYWHERE in the world, you can find hate and evil.  Any stone you cast here... can be cast right back.  You have verbally attacked those that were on your side... and you are to blind or stupid to see it.  I was the one that made the point that all "innocent" lives were equal, you idiot.  So go back and read your liberal magazines that tell you that the USA is responsible for your problems, because we force our valuse upon the world.  What I have to say to that is.... if your values are that good, they will survive.  The world becomes a better, safer place every generation.... we as a race, learn what's right.  The right values will flower over time.

You Bander, you speak down to Ace, Blackie, myself and others here... like you know more... like you are better.... that's why you are a hypocrite.

Loudnotes... I didn't forget you either.  You just keep it up.  You're words here are honest and brave.  Voicing the unpopular opinion with logic and reason is EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING TO DO, if those are your feelings.  

I have not agreed with many of the  things that Ace and Blackie have said... but they actually do discuss the issues with me... not lob insults... you did that Bander.  

Mauti, my other friends here.... I case I'm coming off too harsh here.. I'm trying to say that the people of today (American, Austrian, whomever) are not the people that did those things 60 years ago.  I was trying to make a point, and not insult your country.  Bander, at this point, I don't care if I've insulted you, because you've gone well past insulting me.  You've insulted me personally, and through your stereotypes.  Blow me.

[dave-s]

1. England may have built the first computer, but the US are the ones who have pioneered the technology. What do I mean by that? We are the ones who have made possible the computing world today. Need proof? Bill Gates. Steve Jobs. IBM. Intel. Apple. Motorola. AMD.

2. The English language came from England, of course. But would English be such a vital language to learn if the US was not the power it is?

1. Yes but we still made the first one

2. English is such a popular language due to the fact that the British Empire was so wide spread, maybe the US being the large technological centre taht is is helped but I would bet that if the US had ammounted to nothing English would still be a major language.

OK Im probably not going to reply to anymore in this topic as Im just going to purposly wind people up from now on and as that seems to be the way things have been going its gettng more & more out of hand.

[Precious_Roy]

Wow, I leave the forum for 3 days and come back to 40 new posts.

Um, yes loud, I am a "armchair liberal," but we are armchair politicians by the look of it, except for mauti.

My ideas are credible and theory well-based loud?  Im flattered, really.  Especially since theory is about all we got to work with.

Bander is crazy.  He's got some good points in there, but hes overreacted and said some crazy shit.  *Sigh*, it looks like its just me arguing for the Afgans now.

As to some earlier comments, I support the bombing of hiroshima.  Not Nagasaki though, I think that was a bad desicion.  But enough about WW2...

Its not about old people, young people, afgans, americans, japenese, muslims or anythone else.  This is about Life.  No life is more important than another.  To think otherwise is rather sick-minded.

What I want is the least amount of death possible, and yet still justice.  Its alot to ask for, and war sure isnt going to accomplish it.

I can't really respond to much else, being that there is so much.  At least in here we have really conversation in here.

[jn.loudnotes]

Blackhand, I must say that you were right....I was stuck up a little too far on my high horse, and I apologize.  All of our opinions are equally worthwhile.  However, if you will notice Mort's post just above this one, you will see what I mean about his ideas.  As far as I can tell, he is the only one who hasn't cursed or insulted anyone in this 'discussion'.  Bravo to that!

However, I still think you are all wrong to take such offense at each other's comments.  If you are we are all too blind (isn't that a theme here?) to recognize when something said in anger should be disregarded, then we will remain needlessly upset at each other forever.

Whatever respect any of you might have had for each other, etc. should not change because you had the guts to voice your opinions, however inflammatory, stupid, or downright wrong they might be.  

That's what I was trying to get at up on my high horse.  Let's please just have some discussion, so perhaps we can all gain a better appreciation for the world today.

In other words, lets just all kiss and make up!

[jn.loudnotes]

as long as we're on a lighter note, I would like to correct that Mort actually did curse:

he said

shit

(gasp)

[Ace]

Mort, I must say that you are wrong to say that we here are all armchair politicians. I vote. I'm sure GRIFT votes. I'm sure that when you, blackhand, and loudnotes turn 18 you guys will vote. The only armchair politicians are those who turn down their RESPONSIBILITY (note: not right) to vote and later bitch at whoever was voted in.

[jn.blackhand]

Loud, heh. i also should apologize to you.

But, I don't get upset when someone argues their views. However, when it becomes a personal attack, I will take offense at that. I'm sorry, but I have little tolerance for anyone who "voices" their opinion in the manner which bander did.

Mort, i think everyone agrees we don't want ANY innocent people killed, but speaking from a realistic perspective, that seems doubtful, I mean we've already had thousands lost. Any move the US makes politically or otherwise, terrorists will most likely attack again and again.

I'm not saying it's right, but there comes a point (though I feel we are not at that point yet) where the leaders of our nation and all the nations must weigh the situation and make a move. Again, I don't condone murder, but realistically speaking, it will most likely happen.

That is why being the leader of a free nation is so hard. Thousands, millions of lives are in your hands and you have to do you best to protect them. Mort, you couldn't be president for that reason. I doubt many people could.

I suggest that everyone rents the following movies, I think that they're very powerful and horrorifying, especially during this time in the world, but none the less, I think everyone can gain some perspective from them. I know I have.

Deterence. Kevin Pollack.
Dr. Strangelove. Kubrick.
Grave Of The Fireflies. Anime.
Apocalypse Now. Coppola.

[Precious_Roy]

Ace, voting is not a responsibilty, it is most definitly a right.  By not voting you make just as much of a political statement as you do by voting.  I am a registered voter, and will no doubt vote in the next election.  But that is because I am not apathetic, I am not content, and I do not support the status quo.  

We only have 1 responsibility as citezans, and that is to abide by those laws which are necessary and proper, in place  to sustain order and to protect liberty.  

All those ammendments which say we can vote(14, 19, 23, 24, and 26) also imply that we don't have to.  Sounds like a right to me.

I suppose you're the type of guy who'd go for a flag-burning ammendment too, arn't you?

moving on, enough of that.
---
Douf, I'd make a horrible pres.  why?  cause i would never want that position, cause I hate compromise, and most importantly, cause I'm a really pessamistic idealist, and the combination is a real pain in my ass.

Member of Congress would be much better for me, but I'm not expecting that anytime... ever.

[*DAMN Bander]

Oh - i do read those postings. i ve to say sorry if some of ur ignorant bullshit is so full of crap - so that my "ape-like" english (or should i say "american") skills are not able to understand em as u really meant em.

If i wouldnt have ur damn posts u wouldnt have angered me that much on your idiotic talks that i never would have posted something here.

And at last more important things are happening meanwhile - and i dont even have an argument to attack the U.S. goverment right now (smart).
Seems they are really acting professional and gained themselve proper information about a large range of facts. The North Alliance is gaining territory, they take over taliban merchanarys and are advancing Kabul from all sides. Taliban fear uprears in now lightly controllen provences. A spokesman of the alliance declared even when now they have to fight like a regular army - whats harder than their guerilla tactics - they gain a fast advance and could liberate the most vital parts of the the country in 2 weeks (if they keep getting ammunition and fuel. Iran, Russia and maybe also U.S. support them now). Their Spokesman added due to their informants they may have the capability to capture Bin-Laden and if he survive this (He killed Massood) they will hand over him the U.S.

WARNING: The pakistani so called "goverment" is trying to avoid support for the NA and is trying to damage their reputation (what is another violation of Commander Massood?s honour!). For a fair reason, gentlemen: After they suppported the Taliban directly when they invaded afghanistan, after they had regulary pakistani troops in afghanistan fighting against the NA and after they  where involved in the assassination of Massood they fear for the savety of their asses from in and ourtside! And they would get a very "unfriendly" neighbour in the new afghan goverment.
(But the pakistani one is a "illegal" one that overthrowened the old one and which is refusing free elections so far. so when this will be removed by a democratic then it could all change to good maybe).

Also i saw a documentation about the U.S.-Afghan Community in Queens who hold of a pro U.S.A. and pro NA March in Queens too (5000 people). Was a very funny view to see. Afghans waving the U.S. Flag and signs "Allah bless America". LOL. Shoutouts to to their american neighbours in Queens - they must be very cool.

-------------

as u may notice i did not continue to answer any accusing or insulting post here coming from several sides. i also not answer to any futurous comment of that sort (from anyone). But if there are any interesting points to share about the recent ongoings in that issue we should continue that. Of course if u correct me about anything i said would be smart (any further comments of my ex-friends i will simply ignore. WHY should i let me force of from my own forums by such clowns. lol).

Greetings  

[Grifter]

Ah yes, Bander here seems to be taking lessons from Romulus....  seems that if he can read my last post, he thinks that all my prevous posts are ignorant bullshit.... So I guess BANDER IS FOR BOMBING!  Oh my lord!  Well, there you have it... my posts that we should stop and think... that we should not bomb, that all lives are equal... they are all BULLSHIT... you heard it here from Bander.  He must be right, after all... he is sure that he is better informed and smarter then the rest of us.  So if he really read my posts.... and he thinks they are bullshit... he must be for the bombing.

Bander, you are the one that started throwing insults around here.... not me.  I was supporting you.  I was (and am) against bombing.  so ignore this if you like (you seem to ignore anything that might mean you made a mistake, just like old Rom).  For your information, there are plenty of intelligent things being posted here, by Loud, Mort, Ace, Black, me and even you.  It's just that YOU started making personal attacks and general attacks on a few of us.  That was not intelligent... that was being a dumbass.

Mort, I think voting and citizenship do carry a responsibility.  No, you don't have to vote... but not voting doesn't make you less responsible for the outcome.  Not voting is just casting your vote in the default bucket.  I do vote, on any issue I have feelings about.  I do not vote on any issues I don't (figuring that the people that care will know more about it, and since I don't care, I probably don't know enough to make an informed vote).  The bad thing here is that we are a Republic, not a True Democracy (haven't heard of a True one since Ancient Greece).  That means that we don't get to vote on all the issues... we elect the people to make those votes for us.  This process makes voting less meaningful in many peoples eyes (not really less meaningful, but it seems that way).  What I would like to see is the US to move towards a True Democracy (where every voter can vote on every issue... no Congress.)  With technology moving forward, and information being more and more accessable... maybe it can happen in my lifetime.

[jn.blackhand]

What if in your mind neither of the two main canidates deserve to be the President? Vote for a third party canidate?

In the words of Kang (alien from Simpsons):

Kang: It's true! We are aliens! But what are you going to do about it? It's a two party system! You have to vote for one of us!

Man in Crowd: Well, I'm just going to vote for a third party!

Kang: Go ahead! Throw your vote away!! HA HA HA HA!!!

[Grifter]

Actually Blackie.... voting for the third party is a good idea, if you don't have a difference between the other two.

Now let me explain my thinking here.  Let's say in the past election, it really didn't matter too much to you if Bush or Gore was elected (this works better in other elections, where the candidates were pretty much twins with different hats on).  Anyway, if this is the case, voting third party is a very good idea.  If a third party gets a certain % of the popular vote.... they then can get into the government controlled campaign "war chest" for the next time.  What does that mean?  It means that the US government gives funds to each "recognized party" to use in their campaigns.  If a third party gets "X" amount of votes (I can't remember what the number was in the past election.... been too long), they become a "recognized party".  This is a HUGE deal... it means getting this third party time in the debates.... air time.... other things.  

There was actually a big stink about this in the past presidential elections.  California and Arizona (or Navada... again, memory is failing me) voters for Gore and a Third Party Candidate were trying to "trade votes".  Since it looked very bad for Gore in the polls in California... the voters for the third party candidate wanted the California voters to vote Third Party (pushing up high the number of popular votes) while they would vote for Gore (possibly swinging their state's electoral votes over).  

So, if the first two party's suck... voting third party now is the only way to break the two party system in the future.  Or at least the most likely way.

[jn.loudnotes]

Short history and civics lesson:

The Mayflower Compact of 1620 established a direct democracy for the colony of Plymouth.  However short lived, it was one of a few direct democracies we've had since Greece.

Flag burning is not only legal, it is the preferred method of disposal for an American flag that has been soiled by touching the ground.

[Grifter]

Loud,
Good point.  I don't count the Mayflower Compact.... as they were a colony... .which means they were a "local" government, and still subject to the crown at the time.  On that level, there are actually communities within the US now that still practice that type of democracy.... but only up to the county level (as far as I know, I don't think there's a state out there without representation).  But, you're right, the Mayflower Compact was an example.

As for burning the flag.... even without it being a proper way to dispose of it, burn it.  Burning a flag is a statement, not a crime.  It's an insult, not a crime.  It's probably being a dumbass, but that's not a crime.  Burning a flag is just a good way to never get your views listened to.  That's the problem with statements.... make one too loud and in your face... people don't listen to the underlying message... they react to the statement.

[jn.loudnotes]

Exactly.

I just didn't quite see what Mort meant when he referred to a 'flag-burning amendment' seeing as it's already legal to burn a flag.....