Expert Moders, I need your help

[andrewg]

Hello,

My name is Andrew Guerrero, and I work in a research lab at UCSD.  We are planning to use Rainbow Six 3 to start a design for an Army testbed training simulation and assesment.  Our main concern, at the moment, is insuring that the engine used by Rainbows Six 3 is recordable and instrumentable.   We need to be able to save a 'replay' for playback and analysis, and we need to be able to extract data from that replay.   I am looking to the mod community to see if something along these lines is possible, exsists, or can be made.  We are in a position to compensate for any skilled labor towards these goals.  Please contact me at the e-mail address below as I will be posting this on multiple boards, and might forget to check a few.

The kinds of information we might want to extract include:
- Replay
- Keystrokes
- Chat content
- Player possitions
- ammo left
- equipment carried
- etc. etc.


Thanks for your time,
-andrew
adguerre133@yahoo.com

[Cobra6]

Andrew,
You work in my backyard. I live here in San Diego County. I will check on that stuff for you. I really don't know if this program is all that applicable to the US Army, but I guess with some modifications it could be. As far as reply goes, I know there is a replay option, wether or not the items you need can be recorded I really don't know. Right now RVS is on hold for modders because the SDK has not been released yet. If you need to get ahold of me you can email me at   cobra6@planetrainbowsix.com

[andrewg]

Thanks, I just sent off an e-mail.

[Raven2367]

Why not just use the UTK3/Unreal Warfare Engine for the job. I think the engine  was cut down a bit for Ravenshield (not sure though). Any bet a lot more could be done that way.

[andrewg]

(sorry for the long post)

Yes, you're right 'more' can be done with that engine.  But there are many appealing aspects of RVS.  One is the planning phase - this is a very important requisit.  Second is the oportunity for more descrete roles for players and  for power structures within a team (leaders, grunts, etc.).  From my observations, this is much more likely to happen in RVS over UT2k3.  At a minimum, this project is about collabration, so we need a game that will force the team to communicate, cooperate, and collaborate in general.  RVS seems like the best option from my point of view, but I'm more than happy to take recommendations.  

Actually, heres a list of the nessisary criteria.  Its writen by non-gamer military types, so excuse any bogus info:  


?   Potential for power differences within teams:  To explore authority structure, games should have explicit or implied team leaders who can issue commands to the team.  In MMORPGs, for example, group leaders coordinate the activity of the sub-group leaders, who in turn,  propagate orders down to the individuals.  
?   Unique roles for team members:  This force collaboration because if roles are specialized, the team must work together.  Different weapons, items and in-game abilities constrain a player?s potential actions.  For example, in Rainbow Six, if a player has only a sniper rifle, his role will generally to be scout and shoot from afar; his weapon is not as useful for close quarters combat.  
?   Planning phase:  To increase collaboration, negotiation and discussion, before the ?action phase? of the game, there should be a ?planning phase? which consists of collaborative planning using resources such as a map or intelligence information.  Teams might also have to mange resources such as weapons or money.  Rainbow Six 3 gives players the ability to annotate a map with way-points, assign sub-teams, and distribute equipment.
?   Requires ad-hoc planning: To maximize discussion during the action phase, changes in the game environment should force teams to re-evaluate or completely change plans.  Perhaps intelligence information turns out to be wrong, or an unexpected challenge arises.  For instance, in Neverwinter Nights, the team may develop a team strategy for handling melee attackers after some experience, but must build a new tactic for ranged attackers.
?   Multiple communication channels available and can be monitored (voice, chat, alerts).  Warcraft 3 for example, allows for typing chat, and visible and auditory alerts meant to direct team mate?s attention.
?   Scenario/World building: Bundled tool-sets, developer?s tools, or third party applications that allow for modifications to the map layouts, enemies, enemy behavior, and general aesthetics.  The ?Unreal Tournament? engine, for example, allows players to build a virtually complete rework of the game, leaving only the physics and lighting models.
?   Easily Instrumentable: It should be possible to capture and save automatically data such as player communications, statistics about battles, and activity during the planning phase.

-andrew

[Whisper_44]

No worries about the long post, if youv'e snopped around here a bit, there are a few of us who can go on.

I see why you chose Raven Shield, it does seem to fit these basic requirements that you have. However at this time, the tools for Raven Shield that are required to -

• Scenario/World building: Bundled tool-sets, developer?s tools, or third party applications that allow for modifications to the map layouts, enemies, enemy behavior, and general aesthetics.  The ?Unreal Tournament? engine, for example, allows players to build a virtually complete rework of the game, leaving only the physics and lighting models.

Have not been released to the general public, just something to keep in mind.

They were scheduled for realease in December 2003, but I'm not going to hold my breath

[andrewg]

Yes, this is my main concern at the moment as well.  However, I have seen some maps posted on various sites for RVS so I am somewhat confused.   I realize there is a potential distinction between map making and moding, where the former is the building of the environments alone, the ladder allowing for changes in the asthetics, physics, AI etc.   Is this a proper distinction? and does it apply?  thanks again.

-andrew

[Whisper_44]

I believe that the disctinction you have made is correct for the most part, Raven Shield shipped with a map editor, that allows for new map creations/modifications.

What cannot be done easily right now is New Weapons/Characters/Vehicles/Uniforms

[andrewg]

Thanks for clearing that up.  In the map editor, can you create co-op missions and place bot positions and so forth?  If so, thats more or less creating a scenario from our prespective.  It would be nice to tweak the AI, but thats a good start I think.  Thanks again.

-andrew

[Whisper_44]

Environments can be created, AI can also be randomly placed with so that their behavior/location is somewhat different from mission to mission. I haven't seen any new Missions so to speak mostly maps for  the obligatory Tango Hunt Option, actual mission making ability with AI behavior control might reside within the Development Tool yet to be released.

[JTF-2]

This sounds really cool.

Good luck with it Andrew

[Cocobolo]

andrewg:
Your concept is intriguing, I was in talks about 2 years ago with defense contractor M.bradshaw&associates about this same type of thing, only utilizing the Rogue Spear engine. The project was titled METT sim, I was attempting to get our team invloved and was in the final stages when 9/11 happened, and the company redirected it's atention to other projects. However, I'm sure the RVS engine is more capable of recreating the types of scenarios you have described.

Like the rest of these guys have noted, the main limitation we, as modders, have is obtaining the development tools from the software manufatcurer. Your situation is unique, perhaps contacting UBI directly may lead to them releasing the tools to your team early if it seems like a good idea for them in the long run. America's Army:Operations is also a good engine, (similarly based on an Unreal variant) but as far as I know, no development tools have been released for that either. Modding content is one thing, but altering the engine in order to collect specific data would likely require some type of cooperation on the manufacturer's part.

Please let us know if you require any assistance or input for you project!

[Suicide_Commando]

It's my understanding that most mod teams that were once planning on modding RvS have now chosen the soon to be released Half-Life 2 as an alternative as the mod tools will be released immediately. Just food for thought.

I know of a sim used by the Marine Corp based on the Operation Flashpoint engine as well. I think it's called VBS or something to that effect.

[WardenMac]

Good to see ya SC, thought you died or something  

[andrewg]

Cocobolo - contacting developers (UBI) is definately a possiblity at this point.  Instrumenting is going to be the real issue here, no doubt.  But that is going to be the case with any game.  If a repaly does indeed exsist, however, all it takes is some competent programer to wade through the saved state descriptions - all the information must be there somewhere.   We have a team of highly skilled programmers/moders (http://www.ict.usc.edu/) that our research partners in this project - so hopefully, we'll be ok in that sense.

Suicide_Commando - I had previously brought up HL2.  There are many issues - unsure time frame for release, no planning phase, no distinct roles for players (not until mods anyway) etc.  It just doesn't look like a viable candidate right now.  It is a little worrisome that modders are generally going in that direction though.

[Cobra6]

I can see how the planning phase and the replay would be beneficial for the Army. After Action Reviews (AAR) are an important training tool the Army uses. Andrew, I think you are right on the track utilizing RVS. I think with some programming tweaks and some people who can mod the game, you should be able to come up with a quality training aid.

[Suicide_Commando]

Mac - School's just kickin my ass lately. I should be studying for a socilogy mid-term right now.  

andrew - Just pushing out other alternatives. Here's the website of the Op. Flash. simulator I had previously talked about.

http://www.virtualbattlefieldsystems.com/