Apple Selling Overpriced Goods; Switch To PC?

[Mr. Lothario]

     Ambrosia makes their own games, too. When they do, the games are released for the Mac first. Ambrosia has been doing quite a bit of porting lately, which is a Good Thing?, but don't think that that's all they do. Their first business is making utilities and games for the Mac.

[Cossack]

Well I am not gonna go through all the pages here, I just want to put in my opinion.

We live in a world where barely anybody has a computer. Most people even in the industrialized world dont have a computer. People are more concerned about getting a computer than worrying about all the little advancements. They need email and word processing and that is all most people who are looking for their first computer need. Gates Dell IBM understand this so they are offering a computer cheap.
Once the market is saturated, people will be more concerned with quality. What Jobs has failed to do however is make partnerships with other companies. The buying out of Power Computing was a big mistake. Apple is on its own where as the PC is managed by a few corporations. For Apple to cost of Buisness is much higher. They have to maintain software development, hardware development, they have to operate the factories and the advertising. PCs have a few companies working for them. Microsoft makes the software while Gateway IBM Dell e.t.c. compete by making hardware. All of these companies have advertise thus making the product more known for the common citizen. All this shit I have explained to you effects demand. Apple needs more demand or else their prices will not drop. One way they could start is making deals with gaming companies. Afterall people who do have computers prefer PCs because of games. Apple is more concerned with the graphics industry. Dont get me wrong its an important industry, but gaming is bigger. Steve Jobs needs to switch his priorities and perhaps make some deals with developers such as Motorola to spread the COB to other companies.

*Will spell check when I have time

[SiGmA_X]

I to do not want to go through all the pages, but as a *PC* user it might be helpful to voice my opinion.

The hardware differences are a lot between Mac's and i386's. The Mac platform cannot use the latest in video cards due to the OSX (Up to 10.2, 10.3 can and I hear it runs great from sources ) X11 compatibility issue. This is a really big deal, considering that video cards are the life-blood of games. Also, the processor speed and design of a G4 vs a P4 or AMD XP were not good, because the G4 was ageing and not being fed anymore power. The G5 fixes this problem, as being the second 64-bit desktop machine to be marketed (If you are thinking ?What?s SiG talking about?? check this out) and the G5 proves to be a very nice system. The only problem with it is that Apple is overcharging for components, but we all knew that would happen. The DDR400/PC3200 RAM that goes into those boxes is nice and all, but it should only cost about $100 for a 512MB stick. $150 if you have the options to set the latency speeds (Corsair CAS/CL2 RAM) but otherwise, $100 a stick.

The software differences are where most people draw the line. OS X is a decent OS, because it?s based off of *BSD, which is one of the best OSes known to man The real problem with the Mac is that you are more or less locked into running a Mac OS, or Linux/*BSD on it, all of which are game-limited, or at least to the average n00b. Windows gives a user a lot more software options, and a lot more games, but at a speed cost because Windows is a bloated POS My choice OS is Linux, and it?s what all systems that I manage run, with the exception of my mom?s work laptop (She caught me while I was installing it.. I had just gotten it to the re-partition part too!) and my dad?s personal laptop because he doesn?t let me near it . Even my sisters iMac runs Linux (Debian 3r1 PPC) but that was her choice ? She liked the looks of my Linux so much she asked for it, something that was a joy to hear. Linux has a lot of game support ? I can play every single Windows-based game on my Linux box. How? WINE.

Now, if we are going to talk about hardware, my recommendations (And I do know my shit, I deal in this for clients and friends every day) would have to be a P4 3.0C with 800FSB, a ASUS or ABIT motherboard that supports it (ABIT is my choice right now, I just built a 2.4C system based on a ABIT motherboard and I liked it a lot). The only way to fly with a video card is a 128MB Radeon 9800 Pro, as the 256MB is overkill and overpriced. RAM, Corsair PC3200 or better, in dual channel operation. Currently, I would stay away from AMD as they are not as powerful as the P4?s and the price on them is higher for the same MHz.

If any of you would like any help at all choosing a system for yourself, contact me via AIM, Email, private message, etc and I?ll help you out. I?m not pushing Windblows here, but I am pushing i386 hardware as I think it is better for the price, all around.

Mauti, I have to warn you that Toms Hardware Guide is a known site for throwing reviews, and cannot be trusted at all for their content. Hell, their Germany offices are on the Intel campus!

Best of luck,
SiGmA_X

[Ace]

Bah, I thought we were rid of you. Quit blowing FUD around.

First, Macs do use the latest in video cards, as evidenced by the Radeon 9800 in the G5. Moreso, even if there were problems, it would have nothing to do with X11. OS X doesn't use X11 for its windowing system. Of course, I'm sure you already knew this because of your intimate knowledge of operating systems. Noob.

Second, Apple never claimed that the G5 was the first 64-bit desktop. Hell, I think the first 64-bit desktop was a DEC workstation back in the early 90's. Apple correctly claims that they are the first 64-bit personal computer. The Opteron is a server chip. Of course, you should have already known this being Mr. x86. Noob.

Third, Apple has always overcharged for RAM. Anybody with a brain and most without know to buy from a third party for normal prices. Of course, with your extensive exoerience in the computing world I'm sure you know this. Noob.

Fourth, OS X is recognized as the most powerful and versatile consumer OS around. You have many more software options than Windows as you can run all the major commercial applications AND pretty much any *nix app ever written. (If you want to mention Cygwin, it's only fair that I get to toss in VPC which means that OS X can run pretty much any app ever.) Sure, you might miss out on the occasional latest, greatest game, but most people who aren't teenage boys realize that a computer is more than just an overpriced game console. Of course, I'm sure that you are beyond the x86 teenage boy stereotype of "OMG IT DOESN'T HAVE COUNTERSTRIKE SO THE ENTIRE COMPUTER IS WORTHLESS!" Noob.

Fifth, WINE is a half-assed hack at best. 'Nuff said. Noob.

Sixth, don't try and pretend you are some computer genius because you run Linux. As the classic saying goes, "People run Linux because they hate Microsoft. People run *BSD because they love *nix." To boot, if you are going to bash Redmond do it properly. It's Winblows, not Windblows. Of course, being Mr. Linux I'm sure that you have a quotebook of Microsoft bashes. (Hell, Linux users copied M$ bashing from us anyways.) Noob.

Seven, you do not have clients. You are a loser, and you're biggest claim to fame is http://www.th3sp0t.com/. Of course, I'm sure you are well aware of your pathetic existence already. Noob.

[Jeb]

Your to quick to harp about linux...

I have a pc sitting next to me running redhat9, as a proxy server/samba backup server... It works nice, but the problems happen when you want to plug anything into your computer... change a mouse, install another driver, & random ethernet problems are what plauge that computer. RPMs make things a breeze to install, just as long as you have all the proper libraries.
Recently i wanted to install bittorrent (written in python), in order to get the gui to work i had to update my version of python, install wxpython, and edit the mailcap as root.  As with so many of the other programs you'll want to run under linux usually require a ton of setup and prep. With osX its simple, or should i say more user based.
Linux works well if you want to spend a couple of hours setting everything up, then leaving the computer on to do its job for months (like a server of sorts), but day to day use is a pain in the ass when compared to osX.
I like a computer that i can turn on and use, osX does that. One of my only major gripes about windows XP is the fact that it tries to do so much for you, leaving me pissed off at the fucking paperclip in word, and all those wizards(plus the fact that networking sucks ballsack). OsX is more refined, and is easier to use for a poweruser, it just works.

Btw, your sister must be a dog if she uses debian...

[SiGmA_X]

Ace, I am aware that the G5's use the latest video cards, but they aren't even shipping yet and the 'best' G5 comes with a Radeon 9600 as standard, which is a half-assed card that, well, sucks. The GeForce4Ti4600-8x is a lot better then it, as my personal benchmarking and other peoples benching has shown. I'm sure that you have realized that 10.3 has complete X11 support, and 10.2.x has beta-X11 support. This enables users to use other GUI among other things. I see I had a wording error, it happens when I stream two thoughts into one :p Yeah, I know that X11 has nothing to do with video card support, the support comes from the Xserver, which does happen to be X11-based, at least in systems with X11 :p

Apple did claim that it was the first 64bit desktop, go watch their Keynotes or read that interview. Here's the quote for you: "On the hardware side of things, our introduction of the world's fastest personal computer -- the first 64-bit desktop machine" (From interview, link in last post). The Opteron is not strictly a server chip, it will be used for what ever a user wants, and since there are motherboards with AGP (8x, even) it will be used as a desktop, and has been marketed as both.

Of course I know they overcharge in RAM.. And hard drives, and videcards, etc.

Yes, it is the best consumer OS, as rated by Mac reviewers, amazing! Cygwin is not that great IMO, I am being forced to use it at work and it doesn't cut what a powerful install of Gentoo or Slackware could be doing for me. I don't play Counter-Strike, and I don't play games unless I am at a LAN party, because games are a waste of time for the most part. If I have friends over and they want to game, we might fire up some BF1942 or UT2003 or something, but CS is never one of those games. We don't even do them at our LAN's and our clan is BF1942 at major LANs not CS.

WINE might not be as good as something you have, but it works for me - I can play BF1942 in Linux with out any problems, and that is all I need it for anyways.

I am not trying to be a computer genesis because I run Linux. And I don't run Linux because I hate Windows. You run X because you hate Windows. I run Linux because I like being able to do what I want to do with the OS, and I haven't had enough time to learn how to use FreeBSD yet. That is my next goal. The sad thing there is that studies show that Linux is creeping into the *BSD environment, and is taking users to Linux over *BSD. And I don't bash Microsoft because there is no reason to at all. They do what they do just fine - Make money and shitty software.

Oh right, I don't have clients.. That's right, you know my life! lol. I have a few clients for hardware support and software support, and some because they are total n00bs. I make a few hundred a month off of these clients, so it is fine by me. Th3Sp0t was a page that I had for a few months while I was still on my Mac. I have moved on and we are doing great at our new site, because its a site that we started to have fun in the industry not to profit or anything else. You don't know me, so don't judge me as I do not judge you.

And damn man, stop using 'noob' you sound like a teenager who can't get enough Counter-Strike. Damn!

Jeb, perhaps your first problem is Redhat. Redhat is an OS that is not as user friendly or as well kept as some, IMO. The RPM's are nice, but `apt-get` is easier and better. I prefer source-installing everything myself, so neither apply. And it doesn't take me long to install something. A base install of Debian is 25min, and the install of all required server software is under an hour because of my Shell scripts that execute my commands for my custom compiles.

I like a computer that I can turn on and it works as well, and I get this out of Linux. My Linux box is always ready for me to turn on and have some fun with, and is always ready for new software or anything else. WinXP is .. Yeah. The Wizards are annoying as hell, and half the stuff can't even be manually configured! How does the networking suck so bad? I mean I know it's not all bubbly and whatnot, but its not that bad, as long as we aren't talking about setting it up, because the Wizard is just like every other WinXP one, and annoying as hell and a waste of time. But WinXP uses the standard SAMBA protocols just as well as X does or Linux does, and so it all works nicely. How is a simpler OS better for a 'poweruser'? Don't most 'powerusers' prefer to have options to what they do and have a complete array of software and hardware for their picking and choosing?

My sister is a 10yo who is a *jock* (How ever much you can be at that age, she does soccer, tennis, sailing, basketball, and plays interments..) and *might* use the computer 3 hour's a week if she isn't doing other things. The install was prob the longest time period she has spent on a computer in a LONG time. I did most of the install after she did the base-install, as SSH allows me to do 100% of it remotely after the base-install.

[Ace]

I don't feel like picking apart all the idiotic things you said again, so I'll just choose a couple choice quotes.

You run X because you hate Windows.

While I hate Windows, I run OS X because I love Macs. I've been using a Mac since before Windows 3.1 was released.

I like a computer that I can turn on and it works as well, and I get this out of Linux.

Heh. Haha. LMAO. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Apple did claim that it was the first 64bit desktop, go watch their Keynotes or read that interview. Here's the quote for you: "On the hardware side of things, our introduction of the world's fastest personal computer -- the first 64-bit desktop machine" (From interview, link in last post). The Opteron is not strictly a server chip, it will be used for what ever a user wants, and since there are motherboards with AGP (8x, even) it will be used as a desktop, and has been marketed as both.

I've watched the Keynote. I've looked on the Apple website. They say "personal computer" in big fucking letters. Am I supposed to trust some no-name site about what Apple has claimed rather than www.apple.com? Also, check AMD's website. They sell the Opteron for two markets: server and workstation.

[Jeb]

OsX just works, linux kinda works, and XP works.
I use a PC at work (XP pro) for 8 hours a day, it gets old, but it works most of the time. My macs work all the time thanks to osX, and it doesn't take any maintenance.

I like a computer that I can turn on and it works as well, and I get this out of Linux.

Heh, yeah which version of lindows are you using?

Frankly i don't have enough time to waste using linux for day to day things, but when i want to use jbuilder, or tinker with python i'll use my linuxbox for something other than server type things. My mac on the other hand, takes less time and it just works, plus if i needed to i can do anything and everything that linux can do.

oh, and why talk about how the mac videocards suck, and from the look of your sig, you don't have much of a videocard in the PC world.

And... with osX you get everything that linux has plus a much better user experience...

[SiGmA_X]

Same as why I run Linux, because I love it over Windows and X. I have no problem with X like I do with Windows, but I don't hate either and am proficient in all the above.

Wow, look at that! Apple calling it's new box a PC! Amazing how you people get so hung up on how BAD PC's are when your leaders are calling your boxen PC's :p AMD might market the Opteron as a Workstation/Server chip, but any reseller can sell it in another config, as does BOXX Technologies. Their 3d workstation (Which is what Apple also sells their?s as, a high end graphics workstation) uses the Opteron, and shipped before the Apple did by a while

OsX just works, linux kinda works, and XP works.
I use a PC at work (XP pro) for 8 hours a day, it gets old, but it works most of the time. My macs work all the time thanks to osX, and it doesn't take any maintenance.

I like a computer that I can turn on and it works as well, and I get this out of Linux.

Heh, yeah which version of lindows are you using?

Frankly i don't have enough time to waste using linux for day to day things, but when i want to use jbuilder, or tinker with python i'll use my linuxbox for something other than server type things. My mac on the other hand, takes less time and it just works, plus if i needed to i can do anything and everything that linux can do.

oh, and why talk about how the mac videocards suck, and from the look of your sig, you don't have much of a videocard in the PC world.

And... with osX you get everything that linux has plus a much better user experience...

My WinXP doesn't work most of the time, and my Linux does 100% of the time. I have never had a problem that didn't give clear error messages and allow me to fix it vs just crashing, in Linux that is. I don't run lindows as it is udder crap, I run Debian 3r1 currently and am in the process of switching to Gentoo on my testing GUI machine in my room. Gentoo has great portage, which is a great feature which makes upgrades easy and management easy too.

Linux doesn't take time to use other then the install, which took me 40min last time, from time of wipe to time of having a GUI fully running. Why do you use JBuilder? It's a POS, IMO. Eclipse is a LOT better

Yes, the Mac vid's have always sucked. I was planning on upgrading to a Radeon 9800 Pro when I had a revelation - No games use any of the DX9a features, so I would be wasting my money. And since I hardly play games, I don't need it anyways. When the new id games come out, if they are good enough I'll upgrade my video card, but for now mine does everything and more then I need it to - It does 4x AA on all my app's, it's dual head, and I can run a TV on it too.

I have had a better user experience with Linux because I can control it myself vs it controlling me. "I use Linux because I want to run my computer vs my computer running me" I think is the quote I am looking for there :p

In the end, its all about choice, and that's what makes computers great, we all can choose what we prefer.

[cookie]

im getting the "i think im a badass because i run linux" vibes here. mb we should get back on topic, hmm?

[Ace]

Cookie hit the nail on the head. Rom got rightfully laughed off GR back in the day, but now he thinks he can seem all smart by bragging about running Linux. In the end, he is still the same old noob.

Wow, look at that! Apple calling it's new box a PC! Amazing how you people get so hung up on how BAD PC's are when your leaders are calling your boxen PC's :p AMD might market the Opteron as a Workstation/Server chip, but any reseller can sell it in another config, as does BOXX Technologies. Their 3d workstation (Which is what Apple also sells their?s as, a high end graphics workstation) uses the Opteron, and shipped before the Apple did by a while

The colloquial term "PC" has meant an x86 box for a while now. Apple has referred to their computers as personal computers. It's a stupid semantic argument you make, but I should expect that from you.

The Powermac is not just a "high end graphics workstation." Sure, it can be used for that, but it also gets used in large quantities but a bunch of other types of users. Many developers use it, as do many "regular" users who want an Apple with more power and upgrade capacity. The day I see someone buy an Opteron as a family machine is the day I'll think about not calling it a server/workstation chip.

[smoke.aHa!]

Ok, the thing is that everybody knows PC's are damn cheap, thats why every body has them, i mean u can buy a 2.2 ghz computer for 600 bucks. and its not a pentium 3, when we mac users can buy a stupid emac for around 1g and it still blows,i mean WTF!!! the G5 is good price but no pc noob is gonna pay for that, id still buy a mac over all ph33r me