AI: Answer to Isreal

[BFG]

I've just read this. This maybe explains to some of you why there are guys from the west out there trying to protect the palestinans, and risking and somtimes tragiclly loosing their life in doing so

Children killed as a result of the demolition of houses
 
 In Jenin, Nablus and other places the IDF bulldozed a number of houses while residents, including children, were still inside. On other occasions the IDF used explosives to blow up houses without evacuating the surrounding houses, which were also destroyed or damaged in the process. In some cases civilians, including children, were killed or buried alive under rubble of the demolished house. In the cases researched by Amnesty International, no warnings were apparently given for the safe evacuation of civilians before houses were demolished.
 
         Three children, Abdallah, Azam and Anas al-Shu'bi, aged four, seven and nine years, their pregnant mother and four other relatives died under the rubble of their house which was demolished by the IDF on 6 April 2002 in the Qasbah (Old City) of Nablus during a period of strict curfew imposed by the IDF. Two survivors were eventually pulled from under the rubble, nearly one week after the house was demolished. Neighbours of the family interviewed by Amnesty International stated that the IDF had given no warning before beginning to destroy the house with bulldozers, and that they had been fired upon by the IDF when they defied the curfew in an attempt to search for survivors under the rubble of the destroyed house.
 
         Mahmud Umar al-Shu'bi, the children's cousin, told Amnesty International that on the afternoon of 12 April the curfew was lifted for two hours and he went to look for his father and sister. When he arrived at the family house, he found that it had been demolished. Mahmoud said that he started to dig with the help of his neighbours, hoping to find his relatives alive under the rubble. Because it started to rain, the mud made the process more difficult. He carried on digging after the curfew was reimposed and was fired upon several times; late that night, the rescuers came across a small opening on the ground floor of where the house once stood. In the small space that remained, they found his 68-year-old uncle, Abdallah, and his 67-year-old wife, Shamsa, who had managed to survive. They carried on digging throughout the night and at 1.30am, found the bodies of the rest of the family, who had died huddled in a circle, in one small room: his father Umar, his sister Fatima, his cousins Samir and his 7-month pregnant wife, Nabila, and their three children: Abdallah, Azam and Anas, as well as another cousin Abir. Afterwards neighbours told Mahmud that they could hear the screams of the family above the noise of the bulldozer but had not been able to help and that the bulldozer had actually collapsed down on top of the house, which was built on a slope.
 
 

[Mr.Mellow]

BFG, where was this information taken from? Not that I doubt you or anything, but it's not hard to make up a story and toss in a few names and dates. I'm not saying that YOU wrote it, but you could have gotten it from a not-so-credible source.

[Mr.Mellow]

Israeli attack helecopters blow up a car in a traffic jam which conctained a POLITICAL leader of hamas... One of the few ways of reigning in hamas and its terrorist activities is though politics. so by blowing them up Israel appears to be trying to help remove any hope of the roadmap to peace succeeding...

Sorry about the double post! I just noticed this. Do you honestly think you can negotiate with terrorists? The only way they will ever stopped is if the Hamas organization is destroyed or if Israel is. They aren't going to stop even if Israel pulls away all of it's settlers. Hamas is still launching terrorist attacks, even as Israel and the Palestinians are working out their little roadmap to peace.

Israel is doing the right thing by targeting the terrorists while they're driving. It shows the Hamas that nobody is safe, and retaliation can come at any time. While the attacks can be considered unethical, there's always going to be collateral damage. Why are you so busy worrying about Palestinian civilians while Hamas is openly targeting Israeli noncombatants? You don't see Israel bombing market places.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Mellow...yes, you can negotiate with terrorists when they aren't really terrorists but rather freedom fighters.  They aren't doing what they do for personal gain or simply to kill, they do it to fight for what is supposed to be, a unoccupied Palestinian state, free from Israeli oppression.

Remember that Israel has one of the stronger armies (considering their size) in the world.  Palestine has essentially no military, just a few police type forces.  How else are they expected to fight?

[Mr.Mellow]

True. However, all terrorist organizations are fighting for one cause or another. It doesn't mean they aren't terrorists. They're targeting civilian populations to terrorize them, hoping to force the government to change it's views and such. In some ways, the American Revolutionaries were terrorists as well. However, the fact that they're fighting for a cause does not justify the killing of noncombatants.

[.::|N| SeRP]

I say we kill em, then let the hippies sort out the war crimes.

Who needs those dirty bastards anyways.

[BFG]

Mellow:

The statment was cut copied and pasted from an artical from the Amnesty International website:  http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-2D2

And if you take a look, you will see i literally took one of hundreds.
I agree that you can't negotiate with terrorists... But Politicians? He was the political end of hamas, not a 'military' mastermind or anything. And what about his two children who were in the back of the car? or the woman and her baby walking past when the missiles hit?....

Im not sure how we can distinguish between them being either terrorists or freedom fighters, I believe that Hamas and other groups like them do carry out terrorist attacks, but in order to both defend themselfs (not that it helps) but also bring attention to what the israeli's are doing to them... If the palestinians simply sat down and let the israelis carry on, then i susspect things would be a very very lot worse.
No the killing of non combatants is not exusable. But it is happening on both sides. By a 'terrorist group' and by a 'trained' military... which is worse? the terrorist individuals or a orangised goverment backed military?

Serpico... Im not even going to bother with you.. other than perhaps you should shut your ass and try giving your mouth a chance to say somthing either remotly intellegent or perhaps somthing that just isn't Racist.

[.::|N| SeRP]

OK BFG, don't make me put my hood on.

I am a high school graduate you know, and it's OK for me to let my opinion be heard, don't bother to read it if all your gonna do is bitch about how insensitive I am.

[Mr.Mellow]

If the Palestinians would take a break from the terrorist attacks, Israel would definately be more negoatiable. No country should ever let terrorists change their policies. It makes the country appear weak, and also would create more terrorism in the long run. If you knew you could get Israel to do something by killing a few hundred of their civilians, what would keep you from doing it again and again, just to get your way? It's a shame sides are too stubborn to stop attacking one another. They both feel like they're retaliating against previous attacks.
However, I don't think the terrorist attacks would stop if Israel stopped retaliating. I know for a fact that Israel would stop if the terrorist attacks stopped. It would look very bad if they're launching unprovoked helicopter attacks in the region.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Consider this Mellow, about 90% of the "innocent" civilians that the "terrorists" have killed in the Israel-Palestine incident were trespassing illegally in the Palestinian area.  In a way, these Israeli civilians are no different than a man breaking into your home and sleeping in your bed.  In the US when that man presents a threat to you, you can kill him.  Israelis are definately presenting a threat while tresspassing, so you could argue that all these terrorist attacks are actually just self-defense against criminals.

That is the crux of the issue.  Israel first needs to pull all of its military and civilians out of Palestinian territory.  THEN the terrorist groups will need to take the next step in stopping the violence (which seeing as they wouldn't have Israelis in Palestine to prey on wouldn't be that hard).  Then with the violence stopped, the political sides could make a lasting agreement.

[cookie]

First up = yep the israeli bulldozer killing that girl. Well i do agree that getting killed was not the best thing to do, and that still being their now would have been much more productive, but id like to point out that she wasn't actually trying to get killed! Far from it! Nobody in their right mind expects a bulldozzer to drive up to you and then flatten you do they? really?

Oh and one thing about the ISM: they don't activly 'support' and regard the 'israeli's as the 'enamy'. They are simply trying to stop the oppression of israel against the palestinians.

Am I the only one, or does anyone else see the beginnings of a similarity, the persecution etc, the attempts to remove a nation of a different religon?

First of all, how fast does a goddamn bulldozer go? Secondly, I quote, "When it got so close that it was moving the earth beneath her, she climbed onto the pile of rubble being pushed by the bulldozer." Clearly she saw what was coming, but decided to stay ON THE PILE OF STUFF IN FRONT OF IT. As for you saying nobody expects a bulldozer to flatten them, she was sitting in front of a military bulldozer driven by pissed off militant israelis, even if this stuff doesn't usually happen it's still incredulous to say she didn't know the risk.

next, you say the ISM doesn't regard israel as the enemy, but they do regard them as the evil, the oppressor, thus.. the enemy. And you can be sure israel thinks of them as the enemy

and in regards to your final statement about the eradication of a country of different religion, isn't that a bit hypocritical since the palestinians hate israel just because they are jews, and they want to see israel demolished?? claim that they just want the land the israelis stole from them back, but the point is they aren't willing to share their region with anyone of a different religion. both countries are guilty, anyhow.

on a general side note, i hope you all know palestine was offered 98% of what they wanted by Barak a few years ago, but they rejected it. Shows you how ambitious they really are.


"the palestinians never miss an oppurtunity to miss an opportunity."

(ps- i'm sorry if you found some generalizations here, i'm aware that not ALL palestinians despise jews.)

[BFG]

Serpico.... Fine, sure your oppionion is your oppionion and your welcome to it. But my oppinion of your oppinion is that it was an increadably racist comment, that did nothing towards the debate, and perhaps sums up some of the attitudes of people which has led to these problems in the first place....... But thats just my oppinion

[Cow]

had hitler won WWII we wouldnt have had these problems now, Europe would be all one race and a nice big community of loving germans. Might have some other problems now but i would think we would have stamped them out.
PS i dont hate jews.
mooooooooo

[EUR_Zaitsev]

I  just remembered when a French TV station had live stream on a street clash a few years back and it came in frame by frame, and the son and the dad were lieing on a ground in one frame, in another the dad was trying to cover his son, in the 3rd his son had been hit in the forehead by a "stray bullet" and the father in the chest by yet another "stray bullet"

[The Ghost of Bondo]

cookie, be careful with your absolute statements, the Palestinians don't hate the Israelies JUST because they are a different religion...mainly they hate them because they are being oppressed by them.

I'm with you BFG, I think Serpico's statement was flat out racism...he may have been trying to be funny, but unlike Cow whose statement is clearly not to be taken as his literal view, Serpico doesn't make that evident.

[cookie]

The palestinians hated the israelis long before they ever "oppressed" them,  look at how they reacted when they first migrated in mass to the region before the partitioning.

it's bullshit to say the palestinians hate them mainly because they oppress them. If you took away israel and made the two live together in one state, chaos would ensue, and 10 bucks says it's because of cultural differences.

[.::|N| SeRP]

BFG: are you really sticking up for hippies or am I drunk again? All they do is bash republicans, which I think is pretty prejudice. They also bash the people who were fighting for our country, I mean these people are our heroes. WTF man?

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Maybe my laziness to get glasses is at fualt here but I havent seen a single person hate on Military Personal. If they are in the service and are ordered somewhere they have to go, everybody knows that, we disagree with where they are being sent and what they are being ordered to do and for what reasons there ordered to do it but no we arent hating on the soldiers. Furthermore Hippies dont republican bash itd more be Conservative bashing. If a republican said that abortion was okay then hippies wouldnt still "bash" him because hes still called a republican, its more conservative stance which im afraid isnt prejudice, and with some of your posts I think you have no reoom to point THAT finger at others.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Conservative is a general term and conservatives generally support the war, they generally are pro-life, they generally are against gay rights, they generally are pro-business and capitalism.  To make criticisms of the general conservative ideology isn't prejudiced.

[Cow]

i think women should be presidents of countries, they dont like fighting and they have babies so they are always pro life, but we cant have blonde ones because they are stoopid