AI: Answer to Isreal

[Narauko]

<- English.

Europe...well its a shithole  

PM Blair took a vote before we went to war with america, 90% of his OWN party we're against War with Iraq...Now it is coming clear that he may have decieved the british public over the topic. So far I've seen alot of americans on these forums saying UK wanted to go to war...its not true. The british public (minus the builders) didn't want to go to war. I really wanted to say this in the other thread but its locked.

About the Israel situation, its been going on for so fucking long and it really pisses me off that noone actually does anything. Why can't they just put another berlin wall up, splitting the country where the religions meet and MAYBE just maybe when people learn that being in a different religion etc is ok then maybe we can have peace.

***Spelling is shit, sue me.  

[BFG]

WOAH there. So Its ok to bulldoze over people now? Oh. Well the guy next door gets on my nerves, and often won't get out the way when im trying to walk past so perhaps ill go drive him over... and if he is stubben then thats ok cos then its his fault?
I cannot quite comprehend.. what ever she did, how it is ok for someone to bulldoze over another person, and then rather than stop straight away, to then plough forward, and reverse back over her again?
I'll say again, what about the palestinians? Are they being stubbord for refusing to leave their homes so they may be destroyed and by the israeli's. Are they being dumb for not wanting iraeli forces to be randomly shooting their citizens, for the illigal settlements to be constantly getting bigger and more stableised?
[sarcasm] Yes Im sure all the palestinians who have been shot have all been given nice clear warnings that they are going to be shot. The israeli army is so considerate that way. And afterall the israeli's have called the palestions homes a war zone so its fine if they all get shot, becasue the israelis have said so. [/sarcasm]

Im also English like Narauko. And I totally agree with exactly what he has said about our government.  (not the europe being shit and oh maybe minus the builders bit  ) We were not a nation eager for war by any means. What a lot of people got confused was the difference between the british public wanting to go to war, and the british public supporting its soldiers who had no choice, and had a very very difficult task.  Several Key Cabinet Ministers in the government quit over the war, they did not want to be part of a government that gave the go ahead for this military action against iraq.

[Narauko]

Am I wrong or did i hear the otherday that America is now going after N. Korea? I haven't been keeping up with the news, I kinda switched off after the Allies Vs. Iraq superbowl coverage.

Did they not just give N. Korea permission to start up in nuclear power?

I think its also weird that Germany are becoming quite an Technological advance country, maybe their building their resources to become a military force and thats why there not activly participating in wars...they probably are giving some money to the aid but after WWI and WWII history tends to repeat itself...never trust a woman with hairy armpits.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Well I misspelled Israel as well so Im not going to laugh at Bucc however on the one time that there was a specific question about Israel, Bucc has written a two-line response and dissapeared. In his two line response he says that he has addressed the backing of Israel situation many times. Well Bucc since your so great at quoting past posts, like you would have done on my misspelling had I not admitted to it, then show me where you have addressed the issue of israel. Show me one of your famous page long posts about why the United States government and much of its population supports Israel regardless of thier breaking UN laws.


Q:who can sidestep as good as Ari Fletcher?
A: bucc

[The Ghost of Bondo]

I'd like to point out one fact.  There is approximately an equal number of Muslims as Jews in America...and the Muslim population is growing faster.

The Jews happen to have influence greater than their demographic share.

[BFG]

Yep it sure looks like it...

I also asked for the amazing answer about America's backing of Israel.....
id love to read it and im still waiting.

[Mr.Mellow]

It's very simple. Israel was America's way of getting their foot in the door in the Middle East to counter the Soviet Union's influence in the region during the 50's. Hope that helps.

[Ace]

Yep it sure looks like it...

I also asked for the amazing answer about America's backing of Israel.....
id love to read it and im still waiting.

Maybe because we feel that the Palestineans are worse than the Israelis.
Maybe because we feel for a country that has been under constant threat from its neighbors since its inception.
Maybe we still feel bad about letting 6 million Jews get killed in the Holocaust.

I've still yet to see you post any proof about the atrocities you claim are happening, other than the chick who was dumb enough to stand in front of a moving bulldozer.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

I had typed out a message in response to Ace , citing that Democratice Republic of Congo and the United states both fit into some of those categories however i couldnt explain it in the right words and I doubt that thats the actual reason....Do we love the  Uzi?


Bucc, have you taken a vacation or are you concocting an 8-page post filled with adobe workshop graphs and java live-stream Hardball? Either way I hope you right back on the topic soon! yours truley.

[Mr.Mellow]

Sometimes people forget about topics they've replied in. Happens to me all the time. You can always bug him with a private message. =D

[cookie]

this may sound cold hearted, but i have to agree with mellow about the girl getting run over.

 seriously,what the hell did she think was going to happen when she stands in front of a military bulldozer of the ENEMY? she supported palestine, i'm sure they were already pissed off enough about that, and she's standing in their way to boot. Given, the people in the tank were bastards for running her over but she was responsible for her own life.

 Maybe i'm crazy, but when i read that post all i could think was "how stupid." she died to save a house, and a shitty one at that. if i were her, i'd have drained my savings account and given the family money for a new, better house if it meant that much. no building is worth your life.

on a closing note, this may be totally off topic but wtf is up with the cheesy title.

[tasty]

What she did was very effective. She got so much media attention: after all, the media doesnt care if israelis or palestinians die but AMERICANS, now that's a story! For a while, congress was considering making a special Rachel Corrie probe examining the specific case of her death and then possibly demanding some sort of tribute from Isreal for the atrocity. She brought attention to the plight of the Palestinians in a stupid, but effective way. I'll give her props for correctly estimating the media and congress' ability to act stupidly. (After all, how insulting would it be to demand an investigation into the death of ONE person in the middle east. Talk about ethnocentrism!)

[cookie]

She didn't really bring attention to the plight of the palestinians.. in fact, i'm sure most people weren't even thinking about that.

as you said, the media doesnt care if israelis or palestinians die. they still don't. all anyone likely cared about was the fact an american girl died.

[BFG]

ooooh So much to write, and so little time to do so..

Tasty she did bring attention, perhaps just not much in the US media as it seems to be so filtered by what is 'patriotic or not' or what is seen as 'ok' to show the american public?

First up = yep the israeli bulldozer killing that girl. Well i do agree that getting killed was not the best thing to do, and that still being their now would have been much more productive, but id like to point out that she wasn't actually trying to get killed! Far from it! Nobody in their right mind expects a bulldozzer to drive up to you and then flatten you do they? really? The driver should have been arrested and charged with murder with no delay. Thats it. Nothing else, I don't care whether the woman had 4 braincells three of which were on holiday. Nothing can excuss the actions of the bulldozer driver.

Oh and one thing about the ISM: they don't activly 'support' and regard the 'israeli's as the 'enamy'. They are simply trying to stop the oppression of israel against the palestinians.

Also. Ace. The attrocities? Do you watch tv? Do they not show what the israeli army is doing on american tv? I have just the smallest feeling talking to other guys that you see a lot lot less of what goes on on from the american media.... funny that.
Let me give you one or two more examples.

Shooting a ISM member (Fully marked) as he tried to shield a 6 year old boy from tank fire. He was in clear view from a sniper post and was shot in the head as he tried to lift the boy to safety.

How about the many many helecopter attacks which have killed countless civilians?
How about the mass killings in the Jenin refugee camp? (the Us covered up a lot of that and shut the red cross up as it didn't like what they were saying apparently)
How about the hundreds of children who have been shot while on their way to or from school?
I can't go on. There is no point. I cannot list every single thing I hear off. It would take too long.

Maybe because we feel that the Palestineans are worse than the Israelis.
Maybe because we feel for a country that has been under constant threat from its neighbors since its inception.
Maybe we still feel bad about letting 6 million Jews get killed in the Holocaust.

How are the palestinians worse that the Israelis?
That sounds like the equivelent comment of the Nazi's: that the Jews were worse than the Arian race

Yes Im sure everyone feels for a country under constant attack and unable to defend its borders. We are talking about palestine arn't we? You can't possibly be talking about isreal? Who exactly is the country with is setting up Illigal settlment camps and carrying out illigal military 'insertions'?

What can be said about the Holocaust? It was horrific, and the same situation must never never happen.
Do you know what one of  the first movements which led to it was? It was the Nazi party subtly suggesting that it was the Jews who were to blame for all the things wrong with Germany at the time... And more and more people belived that the Jews were inferior "were worse than the Arian race".....
And the Jews were persecuted, and then things got oh so very much worse..

Am I the only one, or does anyone else see the beginnings of a similarity, the persecution etc, the attempts to remove a nation of a different religon?

[Ace]

BFG, I have yet to see any proof about this kinda stuff. How about throwing me a link or two to a reputable news source. What I have seen in the news I read and watch generally follows the pattern of Palestinean suicide bomber tries to kill Israeli civilains -> Israeli military attacks (insert Palestinean terrorist group here) -> Israeli military accidentally kills some Palestinean civilians in the process -> lather, rinse, repeat.

The reason I think the Palestineans are worse than the Israelis is because their attacks tend to be cowardly terrorist attacks with the specific aim of killing, injuring, and scaring the Israeli civilian population. The Israelis, on the other hand, seem to be trying to nail as many terrorists as they can and accidentally kill civilians in the process.

The reason I bring up the Holocaust is because the Israeli state was basically created as a "We fucked up, let's try and make things better for the Jews" gift from the West.

...but id like to point out that she wasn't actually trying to get killed! Far from it! Nobody in their right mind expects a bulldozzer to drive up to you and then flatten you do they? really?

If I were to stand in front of a moving bulldozer that is busy demolishing a house, I sure as hell would expect to get hit, but maybe that's just me and my common sense.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Well it worked in T...T.... Square Im not going to try to spell it but its tasty's little picture thangy.

At anyrate ace that maybe how you see it, perhaps the Palesteans see it as   Israel incrouches into thier land -----> Israel kills civilians (accidental or not doesnt really matter in open conflict does it?)----->Palasteans take revenge by whatever means they can.        Who seems the worse now?

[The Ghost of Bondo]

First off cookie, if Israel is the enemy of Palestinian citizens, then they indeed are the problem we are claiming.  If they aren't the enemy of the Palestinian citizens than the girl shouldn't have had to worry about being run over intentionally.

BFG, I don't know about Ace, but I've heard about the attacks Israel makes that kill civilians...sure they SAY they were going after some terrorist, but they always kill as many civilians as freedom fighters.

Ace, it is more like this.  Some freedom fighter kills Israeli civillians who are illegally in the Palestinian territory, Israel launches an attack killing about twice as many civillians as the freedom fighter killed along with the freedom fighter himself.  You think the end justifies the means?

I use freedom fighter specifically for the Palestinian bombers.  Al Queda doesn't fight direct oppression, but the Palestinans are equivilent to the patriots of the Revolutionary war...with advanced means.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Bondo,
      Dont even worry about trying to convince him about it because think about the war when we killed thousands because of a handful of men. Its the same thats happening in Palestine only in isolated events and if our anti-war posts didnt convince him that you shouldnt use full automatic to remove one man then certainly the Israel/Palestine conflict wont.

[BFG]

Ace...

You will have to bear with me while i try to dig out some links... but here is one that hit the UK headlines today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2983426.stm

Israeli attack helecopters blow up a car in a traffic jam which conctained a POLITICAL leader of hamas... One of the few ways of reigning in hamas and its terrorist activities is though politics. so by blowing them up Israel appears to be trying to help remove any hope of the roadmap to peace succeeding...

http://www.palsolidarity.org/reports/writings/5Jun03_TulkaremISM.htm

Or how about the illigal siezure of land?
http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/117249.php

Or this one... about the massacre in Lebanan.. another israeli 'misshap'?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2978970.stm

TO be honest Ace. It is difficult to find you the most relevant bits of information. They are scattered now, and only easy to find when the events have just occured. but Do have a good look through http://www.palsolidarity.org/   there is a huge amount of stuff there.

[BFG]

I left a big one off.... Take a look to see what Amnesty International has to say...
for instance http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGMDE020052002?open&of=ENG-2D2 discuss's the unusually high number of palestininan children being murderd by israeli troops.I know its a big document but Do please read it. It gives you endless counts of children being killed by the IDF.

I couldn't read it all... Its difficult not too feel violently physically sick reading what has been hapepening.