AI: Answer to Isreal

[EUR_Zaitsev]

It is quite amusing to me the way many people argue thier points. you see someone will bring up a good point in a debate (the someone is usually bondo, tasty, or that newer guy whos name I forget and isnt an American) haha just kidding but anyway then a response constitutes a page long response about one line in the debate. I don't see any Bush supporters adressing the fact that Isreal brakes U.N. Resolution daily although I have brought that up many times as has that new guy. You see if I pot a one paragraph question to Bucc about why we let Isreal break the U.N. rules but we dont let Iraq then he doesnt answer me, just like in the closed Tax conversation I mentioned that the bulk of the money went to the upper income brackets, where was anyones response to that quote? Maybe if people stopped scrolling long answers that could be chopped into a paragraph with links then our threads wouldnt keep getting locked.                 Maybe if instead of writing pages and pages of flame throwing nonsense someone would answer me about Why we back Isreal although it breaks U.N. resolutions daily, in a short, concise response and limited the cursing and flamethrowing which ammounts to nothing then we could carry on a debate and maybe knock some sense into each other.

[Ledorax]

seriously, I dont know. maybe its just cuz that much of the people in israel got killed in world war 2 so that nobody wants to do anything bad to them anymore.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Zaitsev,

There aren't many Bush supporters here, if you haven't noticed.  

And your question about whey the USA supports Isreal has been answered more then once.

[Mr.Mellow]

And it's spelled "Israel", damn you!

[The Ghost of Bondo]

And your question about whey the USA supports Isreal has been answered more then once.

Ah, you spelled Israel wrong, you dumbshit, uneducated piece of shit.  Your points shall forever be meaningless to me.

/sarcasm

[BFG]

LOL.  

Damn half assed oppionated un-educated kids  Remind me to also ignore all future posts Ah yes, bad spelling = stupidity didn't somone tell me?

I wouldn't have been the 'new guy' possibly with the half page long posts and the questions about america (yes yes and us too) attacking iraq for breaking UN resolutions.. .but not doing anything about Israel? If im not... Id also like to know.. Im sure ive mentioned it before somwhere.... and id love to know the answer.

Im possitive that the Holocaust and events in WWII have a huge element in whats happend.... Just perhaps the reason that there is a very large Jewish population in the US, who back israel, means that the government isn't too keen on pissing them off, loosing their vote, and thus loosing power...


Bucc.... Could you perhaps explain it one more time why this is so? I have hunted around for this mystical explaination on the double standards dealing with israel... I'd love to read it becasue it must be good. very good... I mean if there is a defence for helping a country to illigally occupy land, and then to systematically harrass, murder and...
And whats the answer when the media and the ISM (International Solidarity Movement) happen to get shot by the israelis while in palestine? Well the army just says 'this is a dangerouse and restricted military zone.. what do you expect'... Or perhaps when the israeli bulldozers happen to drive over a few ISM volenteers? 'unavoidable accident while working in a dangerouse war zone' Bullshit.
It is called palestine, not an israeli shooting gallery. Amazing as it might seem, people live there, and shooting kids in the head while they walk to school is not how you deal with terrorism (And just for reference can i say I do not agree in any way what hamas is doing in terms of the sucide bombings. Its horrific). But will people not do anything they can to protect themselves and their country from an invading force.. understandably? But what is more horrific is that a country can use its military to repress a group of people so much, and to flaunt UN resolutions again and again.

A friend of a friend was out in palestine with tht ISM. He was there when, a group of them in bright florecent jackets were trying to protect a palestine family and their house from being flattend by israeli bulldozers (supplied by the US). When the ISM guys wouldn't move... the army fired tear gas over their heads and pepperd machine gun fire at their feet. Some of them wouldn't move. A bulldozer moved forward only feet away from one of the girls, but wouldn't stop.. Despite screams and shouts from the other ISM members, and the fact that she was clearly visible in the florecent jacket, the bulldozer continued. She was crushed, and died shortly after...

[BFG]

Ok reading back over that i made a few mistakes... and it wasn't the clearest explanation. So if you have a moment take a look at this link and tell me what you think:  http://www.palsolidarity.org/activists/rachelcorrie/rachel_Joedetails.htm

[The Ghost of Bondo]

I read about that incident at znet.com.  It is tragic.

My feeling is, terrorists are bad people who don't follow the rules, that is a given, but if the supposedly legitimate military forces don't follow the rules (be it Israeli, American, etc) they are no better than terrorists either.

Israel has killed more innocent civilians than suicide bombers acting in the name of Palistine have.  Just like in WWII, this is probably better considered a war of high collateral damage since both sides are willingly taking it.  Due to this, I actually think the term freedom fighters is more apt for the Palistinian terrorists.  I wish they could work it out, but unless Israel acts the bigger country and follows the rules, it won't.  I put the responsibility to stop the violence on the Israelis (and they aren't to stop it by killing people).

Anyway, about the WWII excuse for the creation of Israel, I feel two wrongs do not make a right.  Just because Hitler did a horribly wrong thing, doesn't justify doing the wrong thing by forcibly putting millions of Jews in the Middle East.  They could have settled in America like the many millions others did.

[Ace]

What everyone fails to realize is that the Israeli military is focused on killing terrorists in Palestine, and they accidentally end up killing civilians at times. On the other hand, the main goal of the Palestinean terrorists is to kill, maim, and scare Israeli civilians. Given these two camps, it is no surprise that people show Israel more leniency than say Iraq where Saddam violated UN resolutions just cuz he was a sick fuck of a dictator who liked torturing his own people.

One more thing. In Zait's original post, he said something about the rich getting more from the tax cuts. No shit sherlock. They pay more taxes, both in percentages and actual dollars, so it is logical that they would receive more money from a tax cut.

I know I asked this once before, but I don't think anybody answered. If you people are all for total equality and that crap, why should the rich pay an unequal percentage of their income in tax?

[BFG]

How do you accidently bulldoze over someone who you can clearly see and is wearing a bright flurecent jacket?
How do you accidently shoot a reporter in the head with a sniper rifle?
How do you accidently mow down school children for throwing stones at you?
How does a trained military force manage to kill so many civilians?
How does rounding up International observers and deporting them so they can't see the attorcities being carried out?

Is that what we call accidents?

Iraq violated a fraction of the resolutions passed by UN than Israel has, is and is and will continue to do. One of the main reasons our (yes I am aware that the UK was part of the allied forces bucc) went to war was becasue our goverments produced or claimed to have intellegance that said Saddam had WOMD that could be activated in an increadbly short ammount of time (I think it was like 40 mins or somthing).
Israel on the otherhand has one of the largest stockpiles of nuclear weapons.

Lots of accidents? Amazing coincidence. funny how easily a trained army can shoot so many citizens.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Yeah Ace, kind of like it would be an accident if say in a baseball game I accidently hit you with my bat...30 times...in a row.

As for why the rich should pay an unequal percentage...who are "you people" exactly Ace?  What I want equal or much more equal is quality of life, I don't care about equality of tax rate.  A person with 100k or more can pay half and still have a perfectly survivable life.  If a person making 15k were to pay 50% they would die.

[Mr.Mellow]

I don't feel sorry at all for the person that got bulldozed. Just because you're protesting doesn't mean you'll always get your way. That girl entered a stand-off with a bulldozer operator, and lost. Yes, it's sad that a life was lost, but what do you expect? SHE WAS STANDING INFRONT OF A BULLDOZER! She was interupting a military operation. She put herself in a dangerous situation and was too stubborn/stupid to move out of the way. You can call me cynical or a sociopath or whatever the hell you want. But the fact is her death was a direct result of her own actions. No one forced her to stand infront of a moving bulldozer. Peaceful protest or not, she shouldn't have been there in the first place and not expect to get killed. Survival of the fittest.
 I'm not sure what to say about the reporter, because I haven't heard that story until now. The fact is, the media distorts facts. I'm sure in a few of these cases, the victims weren't entirely innocent. I'm not denying the fact that Israel's hands are very dirty. Just don't make a martyr out of an idiot.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Mellow, in the US people occasionally chain themselves to trees or climb in trees to keep them from being cut down.  If a company came in and cut down the tree with them in it and they died, you can bet your ass they'd be held responsible and pay for it.  They have full right to press charges against those in the trees and get them arrested and once they are out of the way do their work, but they can't just kill them.  Same applies to the peace protesting.  They can't just kill without being held accountable, even if the person is standing in between a bulldozer and some other thing.

[Mr.Mellow]

Yes, I agree, but the person who died was still largely responsible for their death. I know it's a bit of a different scenario, but let's say there's a firefight going on between some Palestinian terrorists and the Israelis. Now, a few hippies decide that they're going to protect the Palestinians from "The Man" and become their human shields in an attempt to stop the Israelis. Now, let's say those hippies get shot. Who's fault is it? Of course it's the hippies. They put themselves in the line of fire. It doesn't matter what their intention is, they were the ones that chose to put themselves between the Palestinians and the Israelis.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

I agree, that is different, that is more like jumping out in front of a moving vehicle, not standing in front of a parked one assuming they won't hit you.

My point is that Israel is deliberately harming innocents.  If they are in a stopped bulldozer with the protester in between, and they start rolling it forward, they don't get to assume the person will move and just go.

[Mr.Mellow]

Ahh I guess you win, partially. But still, I think we can both agree that the person that got killed wasn't the brightest crayon in the box.

[The Ghost of Bondo]

Ahh I guess you win, partially. But still, I think we can both agree that the person that got killed wasn't the brightest crayon in the box.

I don't think it is a question of intelligence, it is a question of how much she was willing to give for the cause, I don't think just because we don't think it is particularly worth her life that we should conclude she is stupid for standing her ground and being wrongly killed.

[Ace]

Bondo, when I say "you people," I meant the whiny liberals on here who scream when women/gays/minorities get "oppressed." I mean the people who say, "Oh look, Europe is great because they are more socialist." And to continue with what I said about equality, if you want equality of life, what incentive is there for people to work hard? If I'm not going to make more than some slob sitting at home on welfare/unemployment because of a high tax rate, why should I go work my ass off? I just noticed Tasty's thread, so reply to this there.

I read the link BFG posted about the bulldozer story. Even if it is a good recollection of the events (and it would appear to be from a biased source), I'm not sure I have much sympathy for the girl. It sucks she had to die, but what do you think is going to happen when you stand in front of a bulldozer? If I stand in front of a car and it hits me, of course I'm a dumbshit and it's my own damn fault. She knew there were risks she was taking, and unfortunately for her something happened.

[BFG]

yeah... what happend was that the bulldozer driver decided he had had enough so he ran over her. very simply he decided that they were pissing him off so he murdered her.

So she asked for it by going there? yes she had a choice, and she chose to travel to palestine. But what about the palestinians? did they choose to be there? did they choose to have to send their kids to school under the constant eye of attach hellicopters, tanks, snipers? Did they get a choice?
The reason she and many others decided to travel there was to raise awareness to the atrocities being carried out by the Israeli army. And she certainly did raise awareness. Maybe not in some countries becasue the media dose not report on it.
I don't believe her intellegence has anything to do with it. She was willing to risk her life to try to protect the palestinians, and to raise the awareness about their plight.
The palestinians unfortunatly didn't have this luxury of choosing.

I am a whiny liberal? well if i were it would be a great preference if the allternative is a bigoted conservative. I do not believe that europe is great, fantastic or anything. It has many many flaws.

[Mr.Mellow]

I don't think Ace or myself think that Europe is perfect. I don't think I'm a conservative or a liberal, but that doesn't matter. The fact is, she made the choice to stand infront of the bulldozer, and she didn't get out of the way when the bulldozer started moving. It doesn't matter if the bulldozer driver was purposely trying to run her over or if it was an accident. All that I'm trying to say is that it's her own damn fault she died. She could have easily gotten out of the way. I'm sure the bulldozer operator warned her repeatedly before moving forward. If she's too dumb or too stubborn to move, it's her fault. She wasn't tied to the ground. Don't try to shift the blame to the bulldozer operator. He might have been operating the vehicle, but she had plenty of time to move, and she did not. The fact that she died for a cause doesn't matter. She still brought about her own death, which is quite a wasteful thing to do, if you ask me. Death is eternal, life is not***.
Just my 2 cents.
***Depending on your religion or lack of one.