Open letter to Buccaneer

[jn.loudnotes]

Ok, the poll choices are mostly just to lighten the mood - I voted choice 4.  

Buccaneer, I thought about what you have against me, and what I have against you.  Feel free to add.  These are just what I see.

1.  We both think the other is arrogant.
2.  I think you attack people directly too freely (i.e. cocksucker) - you think I moderate too heavily and unevenly.
3.  I like Bondo - you despise Bondo.
4.  We have different politics.
5.  Neither of us has ever admitted to the other that we were wrong.
6.  I feel like you are too condescending - you think I'm not at your level.


Now, what of this?  None of those things is remotely important.  Any and all are perceptions that could easily be changed at a moment's notice, if we were each willing to.  I propose, if you will debate with me as though I were your electronic equal - that there would be no problems any more, whatsoever.  That is, you stop calling me or people I know cocksuckers - I stop touching your posts at all.  Another moderator can handle any spam you might ever make.  I won't criticize your posting style any further (although I did drop that months ago).

We can just not debate over Bondo - I won't defend him if you won't berate his person.  No one needs to admit defeat, and we can enjoy our poltical differences.  We're both arrogant anyway, so there's really no problem with that.

All I really want is decent debate.  I don't want flamewars, name-calling, or bullshit from anyone.  I'm willing to admit that I haven't been as adept at preventing people from that, including myself.  If you're willing to accept that we've both been a part of the crap, I see no reason not to start from scratch.

I have a feeling you'll give me a reason, maybe that's on the lines of my not being as good a person as you because of something I said.  However, in that case this can just go on forever.

I've said repeatedly that I think you are intelligent and I enjoy your debate.  Here is my concession - I only ask that you give me the same consideration.

[Typhy]

None of the choices fit what I think.

Neither of you are bad forum posters, and it's impossible to judge wether or not someone is a bad human being in an online forum. While I do have my own views on who is a better forum poster, in an attempt to lighten the mood, I'll leave such opinions out of this.

Loudnotes: Good idea, and a good post. I think you leave Buccaneer no choice but to take what you've said into consideration.  

[Snipes]

I voted just be friends because you all have to stop with the flame war!!

[Jeb]

congrats on opening another flamewar

[tasty]

I voted who cares, but I find it disheartening that so many people voted "Loudnotes is a bad mod/human being". I just wanted to tell loudnotes that I think he's true blue .

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Loudnotes, I appreciate that you are trying to bury the hatchet, but you just don't get me, no matter how much I try to explain myself.  I've already responded to your 6 points before, but you still don't have them right (as far as I'm concerned).  For instance:

1.  We both think the other is arrogant.

I know we are both arrogant.  I admit it.  The part you don't get is when you start off calling me that, you are being hypocritical, because you are arrogant as well.  And that pisses me off.

2.  I think you attack people directly too freely (i.e. cocksucker) - you think I moderate too heavily and unevenly.

Got this one butchered.  You connected two things.  1) I think you attack people as well, you just don't do it as openly as me, which I think is worse personally.  and 2) I think you moderate when you should post.  You shouldn't moderate things you have a personal stake in, even if it's protecting a friend.  These are two completely different issues and shouldn't be connected.  

3.  I like Bondo - you despise Bondo.

Hey, you got one right, except for the fact that I don't hold liking Bondo against you.  

4.  We have different politics.

Very much so, but If this were a debate I'd argue that you don't actually have politics until you can vote.  But we have different political views, so I see what you mean.  But again, I have different political views then most of you here, at least most of the people that post often.  I don't have these problems with all of them.

5.  Neither of us has ever admitted to the other that we were wrong.

Actually, I've posted in this forum where I've been wrong in the past.  It hasn't happened in a direct argument with you, but that doesn't change anything.  I think, if you want to be correct, this is something that pisses me off about Bondo much more then you.  Bondo will ignore any facts that prove him wrong.  Flat out.  Will avoid questions that show it.  So, I don't see #5 as being an issue between us.

6.  I feel like you are too condescending - you think I'm not at your level.

This is something you will have to deal with.  In many ways, you aren't at my level.  I have what, 18 years more experience and learning then you?  I'm considered an expert within the PMI in many areas.  It is a fact, that there are many, many men out there that I'm not at their level in one thing or another.  Even here.  I can't program like Ace or Mauti or a few others, that's not my thing, I'm not at their level.  If any of them were to correct me on something they obviously know more about, then, unlike others, I don't argue.  A fine example of this, Bondo brings up that a video game says Mazda's are still Japanese, later that his "dad still thinks they are".  The fact that I worked for Mazda (oh, and to correct a previous post of yours, I never said Mazda of America, you did), that I have seen FORD stamped on their body and chassis designs going back for over 20 years, didn't seem to make a dent.  Or, better, when talking to Bondo about logic, since he stated I was only using one logic, and there were others (which he never provided a text for me to go read, hmm).  And, funny enough, I even pointed to web sites where you could look up the styles I was mentioning.  BTW, I also admitted to being wrong in that debate, when somebody corrected me on calling something MT vs MP.  So, what I'm saying here is, yes, in some ways you are not at my level, in other ways you are.  You need to deal with that, because it's a simple fact of life that everyone must deal with.  None of us are at Gordie Howe's level of hockey skill, not even at his age today.  

One other thing.  I also think you are very condescending as well.  You talk down from your "moral high-ground" very often in my opinion.  But I've said that before.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

So, what of all this.  Well, more then anything it shows that either you haven't been paying attention, or you have your own views in analyzing me that don't allow you to pick up any new data or you simply don't care and want out, or you oversimplify a complicated situation.  None of this should be news to you, I've said it all to you before.  I'm actually amazed that you start a peace offering out with something that shows such a blatant disregard for what I've said in the past, making such wrong assumptions in the face of what I have openly said is my problems with you.

You really want to add to the list, no problem.

1) Moderating.
a) if you are going to moderate, you need a clear guideline about what is and isn't acceptable.
b) if you are going to moderate, you need to apply those rules equally.
c) if you are going to moderate, you have to do so with complete impartiality.
d) if you are going to moderate, you need to not be involved in the debate.  There are plenty of moderators that can do it if you are already involved.

2) Posting.
a) worst of all is your misquoting me.  I've asked you, explained to you and even told you off quite a few times about quoting me and changing the contents.  That is one of the rudest things in the forums you can do in my opinion.  
b) arrogance doesn't matter.  Over half the people here are arrogant.  
c) hypocrisy abounds.  I hate hypocrites.  I take it as a personal mission to point them out.  And I think you've been a hypocrite.  
d) I'm not a nice guy.  Never pretended to be.  You seem to think since I'm intelligent, I should be nice, but they are very different things.  I'm nice to my girlfriend.  I'm nice to my dog.  I'm not nice to someone pissing me off.
e) Respect.  This is the real heart of it.  This is really the issue between you and I.  You don't show any to me (I don't consider good manners respect, if that's what you are thinking) and I have none for you anymore.  

Respect really is the bottom line there.

That is, you stop calling me or people I know cocksuckers - I stop touching your posts at all.  Another moderator can handle any spam you might ever make.  I won't criticize your posting style any further (although I did drop that months ago).

That doesn't work for me.  First, as I said, those are different issues.  Second, you added yet another issue in there.  Since you know everyone here, you are asking me not to call anyone a cocksucker.  Sorry.  No play there.  And, even if you just were thinking Bondo, it's still a no go.

Second, the posting style went on for over a month though, and much for the same reason.  I listened to what you had to say, and I said no.  It got dragged on because you couldn't accept the first polite no I gave, or the next 100 not polite ones.  But it was brought up as an example of you being a hypocrite (personal attacks).  Age doesn't change that.

You want peace between us, it's easy:

If you intend to moderate for a more peaceful forum, look at my suggestions.  And use better judgment.  Don't say you are deleting a personal attack and leave others.  That just shows a bias.  If you can't resist that bias, don't moderate to that level at all.

Stop trying to get between me and Bondo.  That's 90% of the trouble that comes between us.  You trying to defend him.  

Don't misquote me anymore.  That's will continue to piss me off and start flame wars a raging, every-time.

You do those things and you'll find that I probably won't insult you at all.  I'll still insult Bondo, but that's between him and me, and you should leave it there.

We can just not debate over Bondo - I won't defend him if you won't berate his person.  No one needs to admit defeat, and we can enjoy our poltical differences.  

If you're willing to accept that we've both been a part of the crap,

Again, no deal on the first part.  You need to think about that.  You want peace with me, it's between us, you don't wrap others into this.

As for the second, I've always accepted that I've been part of the crap.  What you seem to have missed is that I'm not against the crap.  You are.  You are the one always calling for an end to it.  I am a part of it, don't mistake my acceptance of that as a desire to change it.  Frankly, I can have it either way, it doesn't matter that much to me.


Typhy, the real question is will he ever take what I give back into consideration.

[*NADS Capt. Anarchy]

Can't we just agree to disagree? If some heated debates pop up and get personal, so be it. Thus is the nature of a forum. Ideas are expessed, taken in, analyzed, and accepted or rejected by its members. Now let's get over it and back to the serious issues of spamming up the forum with meaningful twenty-page posts on why the human embryo shoudl be considered a part of a womans body, or why it should be considered a human life, or how Adobe got its name.

[jn.loudnotes]

I'm not sure you realize, but by making your last two posts, you've done exactly what I wanted.  I just want our debates to be civil.  There area a number of things in your posts that I disagree with; some I think are outright wrong.  I'll get to those when I don't have class in 45 minutes.  But nevertheless, you didn't find it necessary to make this a flame war, as Jeb suggested.  However much respect you don't feel for me, you showed in it those last posts.

You're welcome to think of me whatever you want - I just ask that your posts are as even-handed as those were.

So - I'll address these things as soon as I'm able.  What I mostly am trying to say is that however badly I've gone about it, from the very beginning I've just been trying to make peace.  Between you and Bondo.  Between spammers and the forum.  Etc.  

One quick note though - I don't moderate in my own self-interest.  I try to moderate for the forum.  I'll maintain I've never deleted a post because I disagreed with it.  Rather, I've deleted one of yours that had no on-topic content. . .and those of others.  I moderate as best I can, but sometimes the sin of omission means I just simply haven't been reading that thread.

Incidentally, there haven't been 6 replies from people that hate me. . .it's always nice to know who voted.  Care to show yourselves?

[Ledorax]

I voted both are bad Do whatever you want just dont insult each other:P Even if I insult people all the time.. but thats off topic

[Mr.Mellow]

Aww. I wub you, Loud. And Bucc, too. I voted for "Can't we all just get along?" Although, I would like to say one thing. Bucc, you said that Loud can't admit that he's arrogant, but if you read his post again, you'll notice that he says "We're both arrogant anyways, so there's no problem with that."
Just wanted to clear that up. I think this forum needs a flame thread...just to vent your frustration. Everyone gets a little pissed once in a while, especially when they think the other person is a complete moron who doesn't understand what you're trying to say. It happens to me all of the time. It's perfectly natural to get super-pissed at people every now and then, even for a person as mellow as me.
Now, I think it's just wrong to say that Loudnotes is a bad moderator, or that Bucc is a bad poster. Nobody's perfect, and if someone makes a mistake once in a while, you can't hold it against them. So how about we all just clear the air, give everyone a second chance, then perform kinky, illicit, possibly illegeal acts on eachother with citrus fruits?

[Brain]

first off i said who cares, simply because i cant change the way you 2 think or post

secondly i'd like to say to loud that i do get the impression that he moderating towards his own ends occasionally. now, i'm not saying he is doing it blatantly or all the time.  but i know from personal experience how tempting it can be to just take somebody's thread and send it to the scrap heap just because they dont get it.

now, just so i'm not biased on this post, i think bucc needs to change too, namely  he needs to  lay off th insults a bit and maybe wait 3 or 4 more posts than normal before pulling them out. i  know how frustrating this forum can be in general, especially when  you feel like you are trying to argue quantum physics with a brick wall but you really need to ease up a bit there. rememer we arent all perfect. we cant be or else there would be no debate.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I'm not sure you realize, but by making your last two posts, you've done exactly what I wanted.  I just want our debates to be civil.  There area a number of things in your posts that I disagree with; some I think are outright wrong.  I'll get to those when I don't have class in 45 minutes.  But nevertheless, you didn't find it necessary to make this a flame war, as Jeb suggested.  However much respect you don't feel for me, you showed in it those last posts.

You just don't get it.  This is like beating my head against the wall.  Notice where I point out that Respect isn't the same as Manners.  The "tone" of my posts, for lack of a better term, is pretty much directly proportional to the attitude with which I feel for both the topic, and the poster.

This topic is half a repeat of old issues, and therefore, not that interesting.  Between that and your tone, not something to get worked up over.  Add to that the fact that my post was meant more for others to understand than you.  Now do you get it?

And if you interpret correctly what I've posted, here and in the past, you'll see that it's my normal state.  I'm even civil to Bondo when he's not being too much of a dumbass.  Go look if you don't believe me.  

You're welcome to think of me whatever you want - I just ask that your posts are as even-handed as those were.

You can ask, but, like I tried to explain, that doesn't make a difference.  

I've just been trying to make peace.? Between you and Bondo.? Between spammers and the forum.? Etc.?                                                                

And how many ways can I say it.  I've told you this months ago, I've told you this lately.  YOU CAN'T FORCE PEACE BETWEEN ME AND BONDO.  Not only that, but you sure as hell can't do it by taking one side over the other.  Both in posts and moderation.  ie, holding one guys arms while the other is allowed to swing freely, just because he isn't as big and strong (mentally in this case), isn't keeping or making peace, it's taking a side.  Doesn't matter what your intentions are, your actions are taking a side.  Apply that with any group of posters here.  If both sides are taking swings, you can't jump into the middle and not push both sides back just as hard.  

And take sides is what you've done, both in posts and in moderation.  So you aren't keeping the peace, not at all.  You've fanned the flames of war.

One quick note though - I don't moderate in my own self-interest.? I try to moderate for the forum.? I'll maintain I've never deleted a post because I disagreed with it.? Rather, I've deleted one of yours that had no on-topic content. . .and those of others.? I moderate as best I can, but sometimes the sin of omission means I just simply haven't been reading that thread.                                                      

That's pretty weak.  It's pretty weak because you even said my post had on topic content, although you considered it repeated, I didn't.  It's even more weak because after being pointed out, have you corrected your sins of omission?  Have you deleted the posts that Bondo made that were just personal attacks?  Nope.  You said because you agree with it ("it's true and not as bad as yours").  That's self interest.  Because agree or not, it's still what you said you were removing, a personal attack.  You give another weak excuse for not moderating Rapid.  Now that is self interest in the highest degree.  It's just too much work for you.  If you were doing it for the forums, you'd suck it up and deal with the work.  Then consider Bander coming in with his flames (didn't you say hi to him in those threads?).  So don't say you just haven't read them, you were in some of the threads yourself, and have had them pointed out.  So it seems to be either self interest or being stubborn, not sure which.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Incidentally, there haven't been 6 replies from people that hate me. . .it's always nice to know who voted.? Care to show yourselves?                                                                

Actually wasn't me.  I, consistent with my posts, chose the who cares.  But, just like Bondo's poll, it should give you something to think about.

Bucc, you said that Loud can't admit that he's arrogant, but if you read his post again, you'll notice that he says "We're both arrogant anyways, so there's no problem with that."

Mellow, it goes back to other conversations we've had as well.  Not just that one.  It's hard for some of you guys to follow when much of what I'm referring to with him was done in PM's a couple months ago.  And he said we each think the other is arrogant, which was the old covered ground.

I think this forum needs a flame thread...just to vent your frustration. Everyone gets a little pissed once in a while, especially when they think the other person is a complete moron who doesn't understand what you're trying to say.

Completely agree with ya.

Brian, I welcome your opinion, but in the case of the people I have lost respect for, I have to say I don't agree with ya.  I see no reason to hide or disguise contempt.    

[jn.loudnotes]

Bucc, the lack of respect is the issue.  I think there's really no point rehashing all the old issues - we obviously don't agree on my moderating or your posting any more than we do over cars and politics.  
And yes, I say politics - people can have political theories and even attachments before they are able to express them with a vote.  There's a lot you can do that's just as if not more influential in politics than actually voting.


So, this issue of respect.  In this thread, my idea was this:  Since I still have no beef against your person, just some of your online actions - I figured we could just throw it all away.  Forget the bullshit - I accept that I've erred - YOU DO TOO.  That's not too much to ask.  

However,

You can ask, but, like I tried to explain, that doesn't make a difference.

You've made this into an issue of the person.  You've lost respect for me as an individual - and that's what I consider unacceptable.  

I think the basic issue behind all my personal attack gripes, etc, is that you don't show people respect when you've gotten tired of them.  The whole reason my moderating came into play was that I don't think that fits with the direction this forum should be heading.  All our debate here, since we have relative freedom of speech - should be conducted with respect.  If you're going to show little or no respect to someone on this forum, that really needs to change.

I find it really amazing that you could argue this, since it shows an incredible haughtiness to refuse to be respectful of someone.  However, on this forum you really have no right to trash people simply because you've grown tired of them.  This just isn't the place for it - and that's what I will moderate.

I respect you for your intellect and even your stubbornness, and I frankly demand the same consideration.  If that's too much for you, if magnamity escapes you because I'm so hateful - then I don't see any point in our debating anything at all.  And if that's what you've wanted; I don't know why you waste your time.  I for one miss the reasonability you've shown me often in the past.

By the way - I didn't expect you to vote that I'm a bad person.  I am curious who did, however.  But maybe you should rethink "not caring".  If you don't want to debate with several of the people who post here most frequently. . .why post here at all?

[jn.loudnotes]

I reread a sentence from your post and thought I'd add - I do show you respect.  Telling you I believe you to be wrong, telling you that you are acting disrespectful - telling you in the position of moderator that I think you have erred - this is not disrespectful.  That is my opinion, and I don't need to give deference to you.  I am polite about such things, and that is respectful.  However, I see you as my equal on these forums - not in real life by any means, but here indeed.  Perhaps that is what you find disrespectful.  But there is a reason I am polite.  Consider it.

Now - I offerred to make peace.  You still haven't given me a reason you can't do that other than anger over old shit.  Shit is biodegradable. . .

[Ace]

Incidentally, there haven't been 6 replies from people that hate me. . .it's always nice to know who voted.  Care to show yourselves?

I'm sure this will come as no surprise, but you got my vote. Though, I wouldn't say I hate you. Great annoyance is a better term. Hate is reserved for Dodger fans.

I know a few of the other 5 who voted similarly, and they should come as no surprise to you, but I'll let them speak for themselves if they want.

[jn.loudnotes]

No surprise Ace - it's just nice to be able to place a name with the vote - and an explanation.  Of course, as resident ass, you don't really have to explain yourself. . .you annoy me too!

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Ok, I just deleted a very long post, telling Loudass how full of shit his last two were, that he keeps ignoring that I find him very disrespectful to me, and that Polite does not equal Respect, as he seems to think.

Instead, I offer this challenge to Loudnotes.  Go back to the BlackOps and look at those pages where we debate Mazda.  Do I insult you first, or do you insult me first?  Not between me and Bondo, but between us.  

You see, you have done a very good job of IGNORING MY POSTS here.  You really have.  You just keep repeating yourself, like you did before.  Gosh, do I find that disrespectful?  

You aren't even a moderator in that forum, so you spill it into this one instead.  Just like (for the information of those of you that aren't in the Black Ops) Bondo started a thread there asking for me to be kicked out, which Loudnotes was the only other to agree with).  Since this couldn't work out there, it's now brought here.  

It's time to drop this bullshit Loudnotes, it really is.  Like I said, I will continue to comment, in any way I see fit, to any unfair moderating or suggestion that you make.  But since you didn't listen before, and don't seem to want to actually discuss it now, fuck the stupid debate about being nice to Bondo.  You don't address anything I have said on the matter, so it's pointless, and there is absolutely no reason that I should listen to a word you say about it.  Understand that.  You haven't been discussing, you've been dismissing.  You don't show me respect, you show politeness.  Respect would be fucking actually addressing what I've said.  Fucking wake up and learn that already.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

One more example, since it's oh so fresh.

Typhy's whole post in the Snipey Poll thread:

All I have to say is: Snipey, you're a fucking idiot.                                                                                  

Loudnotes posts 4 after it.

Hmm, not on topic, a personal attack, and he must have saw it right there.  Hmm, yep, he's just deleting those personal attacks with no substance to make this a nicer place.  What fucking bullshit.

Typhy, I'm not making you out to be a target here.  I agree with your right to post something like that when you feel it's right.  It's just such a fine example of Loudnotes bullshitting about that moderation.  That if he really felt the way he said, that post should have been gone in a heartbeat.