War through Iraqi eyes

[Cossack]

America and Britain may be in for a fight much larger than the first Gulf War. It shows that eventhough Iraqis may hate Sadaam, they do not want to be in their eyes, "ruled by America" Reports give 7 million Iraqis are armed. This comes not from Iraqi claims but claims by British Intel. Numerous intelligence sources from Russia, to Germany, to Britain, to France, and to the US indicate that there are not many revolts at all. What is worse news, Iraqis see this not as a regime change, but an invasion by the West. This may not be the truth, America and Britain may only be in there for regime change, but never the less this is what Iraqis see. An Army cannot defeat the masses. Remember Germany came into Russia with the public intent of ridding the world of communism. Look what happened. The bloodiest war the world has ever known with an estimated 35 million casualties between the two countries. This is not a prediction but a concern and a thought I think you people would like to ponder.

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

We're fighting for the people who want Saddam gone rather it be a minority or a majority. Our main objective is to get saddam out. Those who want him gone will support us and once we've achieved that goal, those who opposed us will just have to live with the consequences. They'll all soon see how better their lives will be after they are awarded the freedoms they so deserve.

[alaric]

I fear that Cossack may be correct. Our intentions are irrelevant, it's what the Iraqi people think that matters. They will decide if this war becomes our next Vietnam.

Though our media and government are very good at propagandizing the American people, they just plain suck at getting foreigners to believe them.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Well, it wont turn out like Vietnam unless the Russians, Chineese, French or Germans decide to start arming them.  I don't consider that very likely.

Since many of the Iraqi are starving, without food and water, I don't think the average citizen is going to put up that much fight if the US/Brit/Aussie forces keep carting in the food and water.  Saddam has starved out so many of them, that even the threat of getting shot will pale over the threat of starving to death.  As long as the soldiers keep feeding them, I don't think Saddam's hold over his people will last.  While many Iraqi may fear the western soldiers today, I think it's pretty safe to say that most Iraqi fear Saddam, not love him.  That fear can be beaten.  Beaten with the use of both force and kindness, when applied in the right directions.

[Cossack in San Antonio]

Again I have to state the Germanic-Russo War. The nazis came into Minsk, Vilinus (yes its a real city not just a map in GhR.), and Tallinn as liberators in the public world. Ukranians hated Stalin, many Russians wanted to see him dead, but when they saw a foreign army come onto their soils, we became angry.

BTW Bucc, Russia has offered them weapons and continues to do so.

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

That doesn't mean it has to happen to everyone. Look at what happened in Bosnia. The Kroatians and ethnic Bosnians were being eridicated by Serbs. They were crying for help but no one really responded except for us. They praised our arrival. Same goes for Somalia. Except there was a slight mix. Most of the somalians supported our efforts but there were small pockets of them that didn't want our involvement. That's exactly what's happening in Iraq. We show up with food and tellt hem their corrupt leader who's been starving them for years is going to be removed. Plain and simple as that. Whoever doesn't see that as a positive move is idiotic.

[kami]

Py, your food convoys are getting tons of delays, that's a big part of what angers the civilians who come to greet your troops.

[Snipes]

damit will these war threads ever stop??? there should be a section just for war threads...

- Snipey

[Typhy]

damit will these war threads ever stop??? there should be a section just for war threads...

- Snipey

I'm going to make an off topic post to try and deal with something. Please ignore this, unless you're name is Snipey.

1.) Snipey, someone already suggested making a seperate section of the forum for war threads. Assassin came and pointed out that there were many 9/11 threads, and many Afganastan threads. After the war is over, they'll go away. The General Gossip is here so people can talk about important current issues, and it just so happens that the war in Iraq is the biggest current issue.

2.) Take a look at everyone else's posts, then look at yours. Notice a difference in the subject?

3.) To use italic, you must put the words that you want to be in italic  inside of the symbols.

[jn.loudnotes]

Back to topic - Bucc, why do you think it's unlikely someone will arm the Iraqis?  You just named all the major countries that oppose the war - it seems plausible for them to show that feeling, especially given the sentiments Americans have shown toward them.  Were I a Frenchman now, I would be upset at all the anti-French feelings just because of my non-support of the war.  I don't know if that would drive me to sell weapons to the enemy or not, but it would be possible. . .

And what about other nations that support Iraq itself. . .Syria, Iran, etc.  What if the rest of the Axis of Evil got involved?

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

The Russians and Syrains have already armed them with some sophisticated things that have been destroyed, and the Syrians continue to attempt to smuggle arms across the border.

Kami, blame the delays on the Iraqi guerilla's.

Loudnotes, Iran hates Iraq with a passion.

[j47]

People -
Giving food to starving humans is a great idea! Look at the Missionaries of the Roman Catholic Church, they go to Africa offering food and then after a while they introduce the Catholic Religion, in this case, Democracy.

- j47

[jn.loudnotes]

My mistake Sin. . .anyway, surely Iraq has some way to get arms. . .there are lots of countries that either support Iraq or hate the US.

[[V] Silverblade]

We're fighting for the people who want Saddam gone rather it be a minority or a majority. Our main objective is to get saddam out. Those who want him gone will support us and once we've achieved that goal, those who opposed us will just have to live with the consequences. They'll all soon see how better their lives will be after they are awarded the freedoms they so deserve.

what if countrys dont want to be liberated by americans? shouldnt mb the people who live there make this decision? how the fuck can u think its the americans who can decide that?

imagine usa wouldnt have the largest arsenal in the world, would u like to be liberated by russians? in their eyes u would have a much better life afterwards... just that u will probably see it from another angle...

[The Ghost of Bondo]

In my Environmental Economics course I've learned that when a central power tries to deal with environmental issues, it almost as a rule is vastly inefficient.  One of the books I read for it states the importance of having decisions made locally to account for the time and space specific issues.  The concept works wonders, even when not taking control out of a public hand.

Why if this is true for Environmental economics, shouldn't it be true for international politics.  I think the issues of countries in the middle east primarily need to be decided by those in the middle east.  Otherwise it is likely to go awry.  Command and control systems just don't work well.

[[V] Silverblade]

My mistake Sin. . .anyway, surely Iraq has some way to get arms. . .there are lots of countries that either support Iraq or hate the US.

america is trying hard to make people hate them...

not givin a shit bout anyone isnt exactly a "friendly" attitude...

[[d]-[p a t]]

People would rather be ruled by their own corrupt leaders, than fair, foreign powers.

[Cobra]

what if countrys dont want to be liberated by americans? shouldnt mb the people who live there make this decision? how the fuck can u think its the americans who can decide that?

How could they make any type of decision like that, much less try to take any sort of action to enforce that decision?!  I find it just a wee bit unlikely that Saddam would react pleasantly to an Iraqi telling him they would like a change to, for example, democracy.  Do you think they have any choice whatsoever?  How can you even think that the people of Iraq have it OK?  They live under a ruler who wouldn't lose a night's sleep by torturing you for speaking a word against him.  Even if they sincerely wanted to challenge him, they would not win.  To not support him is to die.  You don't think this shit isn't cause for intervention?  And if they honestly don't think there is anything wrong with the situation they're in, well...they probably don't know how good the rest of us have it, do they?

[jn.loudnotes]

Since when are oppressed people unable to revolt?

Anyone can name for you dozens of examples of peoples who lived under regimes just as harsh as Hussein's who decided they wanted to change it, and they did so.  However, when has their been a time where those people did nothing as another group came in and changed the government for them?

The US is supposedly not conquering Iraq.  If so, we're just handing them a government.  Since they haven't demonstrated that they want one, how can this be justified?

Do you think they have any choice whatsoever??

What an arrogant, superior, condescending thing to think.  How can you think they don't?  How do you think the USA was formed?  What about the USSR, Russia, each of its republics, every modern state in Europe, and almost every industrialized nation??

They all had revolutions, which are possible if the people desire them enough.  Obviously the Iraqis as a whole don't, and who the hell are you to say that they do?  If they aren't uprising, have you considered that maybe there's something about the quality of their lives that leaves them contented?  Just because it doesn't meet your standards doesn't mean it's not good enough for someone else, or even that they'd prefer things to be different.

Note - if they Iraqis rose up in revolt themselves, it would be a very different matter if we were simply aiding them, but it's quite another thing to instigate the conflict ourselves.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Loudnotes, the last time the people of Iraq tried to revolt, they were raped, murdered, and gassed.