READ THIS!

[|MP|Buccaneer]

I never said anything about foreign aid.

No, you didn't.  I was comparing the two of them though.  Voicing my opinion.

Do you really think that companies would pay their workers fair wages if they didn't have unions? Look at the industries that aren't unionized, like fast food and meatpacking.

Yes.  Ok, look at when Ford Mo Co was unionized.  The workers took a PAY CUT.  Isn't that amazing?  And McDonalds and other fast food around here pays $8 - $10 an hour.  I think that's a fair wage for slinging burgers, don't you?  We don't have meat packing around here, so I don't know the going rates.

I tend to look at these problems from the point of view of the worker first and the economy second.

Ah, but if the economy goes to hell, so do the workers.  The economy is the big picture, workers the little picture.  And while I don't think we should overlook the little picture, we should concentrate on the big picture.  Don't you think?  

I watched the Oscars and can honestly say that it was a mix of both.

I watched them too.  And I have to say, a rough estimate that one in 20 were applauding, and I sure as hell couldn't really hear them through the boo birds.  You couldn't really hear what he was saying at the end over the boos (took a couple replays for me to catch it).  Or do I just have the base turned up too loud?

BTW Moore pwns you...

And Rush pwns you...

And no, I never said his work was good.  Must have mistaken some sarcasim.  Moore is full of shit.  Come on up here and I'll take you to Flint, and show you some of the truth behind it.  First hand.  Moore has twisted the facts as much as Rush has.  He's really pathetic.  You know how a conservative gets ahold of an MP3 like the one PY posted, and uses that as an example of liberals, Moore does the exact same garbage.  I've heard him debate.  I've heard him completely blow off points that don't agree with his side, using the old "that doesn't compare to what bad they've done" argument.  Never addressing when called on his BS, just shouting over it.  He has the same style as Rush, he really does.  

[tasty]

Perhaps you need a hearing aid bucc, or rather a selective hearing aid Moore's work is internationally respected and renowned. My copy of Bowling for Columbine is already on pre-order on Amazon. I wouldn't really say that any debates Moore does really count as his work either. Look at the documentaries he has put out and judge him on those (except for his documentary "The Big One", I'll admit that one truly sucked ass). Also, if I'm to believe that he is really as underhanded as you say he is I would need an example. I've never read his books, but I have seen all of his movies and was impressed by "Roger & Me" and "Bowling for Columbine". I think you would really have difficulty convincing me (and the rest of America) that these two bodies of work are bad.

The meatpacking industry is huge in Iowa, so I have firsthand knowledge of this. The meatpackers earn typically exactly minimum wage (5.45 currently i believe), and they get awful working conditions similar to those described in "The Jungle" that don't even come close to conforming to OSHA standards. The only problem is OSHA never regulates them because they are getting paid of big time. And last I saw, McDonalds was paying 5.85 an hour starting wage, so don't gimme that 10 dollars an hour crap. It's also one of the more difficult and strenuous jobs there is according to what I've read, since the workers there are essentially used as human machines and productivity/speed expectations of them are quite high. And I'm still waiting to hear what a fair wage is.

I think its important to keep the big picture in mind, but I think that right now the big picture comparatively receives more emphasis than it should. After all, who is really getting represented in our government, rich CEOs or poor factory workers?

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Perhaps you need a hearing aid bucc, or rather a selective hearing aid Moore's work is internationally respected and renowned.

Tasty, I don't need one, you do.  He's a sham.  Rush's work is internationally respected and renowned too.  Just not by liberals.  Neither of them are right.

I wouldn't really say that any debates Moore does really count as his work either. Look at the documentaries he has put out and judge him on those (except for his documentary "The Big One", I'll admit that one truly sucked ass).

Talk about my needing a hearing aid, you need a pair of glasses!  Go back and read what I've written about the farce known as Roger&Me.  I've seen his documentaries, and I've compared his editing skills to those of the John Edwards show, that make him look like he really does talk to dead people (they only have to edit out about 80% of his show to make it look that way).  Give me a break Tasty.  I've already pointed out many flaws I see with it.  Like I said, wanna come up to Flint?

I wouldn't really say that any debates Moore does really count as his work either.

Really?  The don't reflect on how he doesn't address the issues, but just points fingers.  I swear, he is the liberal Rush, he really is.

Also, if I'm to believe that he is really as underhanded as you say he is I would need an example.

Given and overlooked, in multiple threads.

I think you would really have difficulty convincing me (and the rest of America) that these two bodies of work are bad.

Great works of fiction, that they are.  And a documentary that only shows the worst examples of one side is fiction in my book.  It sure isn't the whole truth.

The only problem is OSHA never regulates them because they are getting paid of big time.

And out comes my libertarian side.  You don't make more laws to get around corruption.  You fix the corruption.  Nobody is forced to work there, so if they don't like working for the rate, they can find another job.  That's what minimum wage is all about.  As for OSHA, the workers shouldn't get more because of that, it's a problem that should be fixed, plain and simple.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

McDonalds was paying 5.85 an hour starting wage, so don't gimme that 10 dollars an hour crap. It's also one of the more difficult and strenuous jobs there is according to what I've read, since the workers there are essentially used as human machines and productivity/speed expectations of them are quite high.

LMAO Tasty.  You should hop behind the counter and work at one then.  Most college kids have at one time or another.  I did when I was at school (Subway for one term and BK another).  They sure didn't seem as hard as the summer I did construction.  And I can honestly say, I was never as tired coming home from them as I am coming home from consulting.  Strain is a very subjective thing.  

As for the $8-$10 an hour.  The Wendy's by here has the sign up "help wanted $8/hr" right now, outside.  I'll be sure to snap a photo of it for you in the next few days.  And it's not unusual.  

Got this one out of the paper (feel free to pick up a Lansing State Journal if you don't believe me):
McDonalds inside Meijer (Okemos) is now hiring for closing and weekends. Start up to $8.50/hr. Full or part time, flex. hrs., half off food anytime, reimbursement for college textbooks and eligible for $500 MSU scholarships.  Apply in person

We live in different areas Tasty.  The fast food joints around here are always looking for help.  And they have to pay for it.  There is no shortage of jobs in that field around here.  Those guys up in Flint that Moore parades around just don't want to work in Wayne county, it's not convenient for them.

And I'm still waiting to hear what a fair wage is.

Well, I answered that in regards to fast food, but I guess you want a broader answer.  But there is no easy answer to that.  And, I don't think there has to be.  I believe in supply and demand.  I believe that if I'm a construction worker, I should be in Vegas right now, not Michigan, or I should accept the lower pay here.  It's all about choices.  The choice to get an education or not (and don't give the overly liberal answer that not everyone has that choice, because anyone can do it, if they chose to).  It doesn't have to be easy, nothing has to be given to people.  Just like nobody has to buy a companies products.  So a far wage has to do with what you do, how much you put into it, and the demand for your skills.

but I think that right now the big picture comparatively receives more emphasis than it should. After all, who is really getting represented in our government, rich CEOs or poor factory workers?  

Hell, neither should be represented in our government.  Citizens should be.  Yes, Republicans side too much with business in issues, and Democrats side too much with labor.  And they are both wrong for doing it.  Fuck them both for it.  And don't lump them all in as poor factory workers.  I know a hella lot of them that still make more then me.  Get rid of the bottom feeders and let goverment enforce labor laws.  Lose the unions and let workers speak with their feet if a company doesn't pay in accordance with it's profits.  You ask if it's fair that the CEO makes a ton of money, at least they tend to risk more out on the outcome of the company.  Union fucks make the cash even when the company loses money.  Look at Steve Jobs, all his money is made on profit alone.

[tasty]

Bucc, you haven't proven anything to me about Michael Moore. All you said was that he uses "John Edwards-esque" editing techniques and that he only shows one side of the story. I don't see where you're coming from that its his duty to show both sides of the story. This isn't the nightly news, this is his own body of creative work and he is trying to make a point. Calling something fiction because it is one-sided is just preposterous. In Roger & Me he offers management time to speak on their behalf, but they constantly turn him down. Perhaps that's a decision they regretted later. And in Bowling for Columbine, he doesn't point any fingers. That's why it was such a well respected movie; Moore exhibits what he sees as the problem but doesn't offer any solutions, leaving the viewer to draw their own conclusions about what causes gun violence in America. Moore got both an Oscar and a prize at the Cannes festival for Bowling for Columbine, and I generally trust the judgment of those two panels.

Ok, so the fast food restaurants in your area pay 8 dollars an hour. That's fine for a college student on break, but what about the single mother that needs to support a child? Or a father that needs to support a family? It's impossible to adequately do on 8 or 10 dollars an hour. And from what we've seen, that's probably the higher end of available starting salaries for this industry. I think if a worker is going to work full-time, than they deserve a living wage. I'm not sure myself what that is (I think I've read around 13), but I know 8 isn't it.

The problem with your other arguments is that it assumes workers can leave their job at any time and go find another one. The job market is extremely tight right now, and especially applied to unqualified immigrant meatpacking workers it is impossible to argue that they could just pick up and find another job. Most of these workers were driven up to small town Iowa by the meatpacking plants themselves, who have recruiting programs down at the border for both legal and illegal immigrants. They have no transportation, little knowledge in English, and no money. Apply the argument to an experienced white worker too that doesn't like what he's getting. Typically the only other jobs available pay less (if there were available higher-paying jobs, typically workers will leave to take them) so the only way he could protest his own companies low wages is to move to another company with lower wages. What is that going to solve for him and his family? Under your union-free vision of America, management has all the power and the workers none. The ability to move to another job has always been within the workers power and doesn't really bring any clout to the bargaining table. Workers need to put food on their tables for their families, and they can't do it when they are constantly switching jobs.

As for the OSHA thing, do you not think its fair for workers to be able to work in a safe environment? OSHAs only function is to make sure workers can do their jobs free of unnecessary injury. Unfortunately the organization is virtually a moot point after Reagan and Bush deregulization that substantially cut the size of OSHA and the power it has to regulate. Now companies are asked to voluntarily fix their problems rather than forced to. I really don't think that people can be trusted with all the "liberty" you want to accord them.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Bucc, you haven't proven anything to me about Michael Moore. All you said was that he uses "John Edwards-esque" editing techniques and that he only shows one side of the story.

Then you haven't gone back to where I talked about Roger&Me with Kami.  

Notice you can't really say he isn't the liberal Rush either.  They just use some different mediums is all (and some of the same).  Rush isn't the news either, but I've heard you blasting his style and twisting of the facts too.

Moore got both an Oscar and a prize at the Cannes festival for Bowling for Columbine, and I generally trust the judgment of those two panels.

Movies like Traffic have too, that doesn't make them any more true.  They aren't judging it on it's merit as factual, they are judging it as a movie, against other movies in that same year.  Those awards don't lend any credit to his claims, just his movie making ability.

Ok, so the fast food restaurants in your area pay 8 dollars an hour. That's fine for a college student on break, but what about the single mother that needs to support a child? Or a father that needs to support a family? It's impossible to adequately do on 8 or 10 dollars an hour.

Then let them find a better job if it's not enough!  Nobody forces anyone to work at a fast food restaurant.  $8/hour is over $16k a year working full time, $10/hour is over $20k per year full time.  In indiana, the average wage per citizen in the state is $27k for example (as of 2000).  One more example for you;  According to the US Department of Labor, the average wage in all of America boils down to $16.23/hour in 2001.

So, looking at that perspective, yes, I think if that is the work you chose to do, it's more then a fair wage.  Yes, I think people can live on $20k /year, since so many already do.  Should they get more?  Then let them get a better job and leave McDonalds to the college kids and the retired folk like it usually is around here.

You want to raise minimum wage up to $13/hour?  Think what that will do to inflation!  Think how the prices of the fast food would jump up, along with everything else!  Yeah, inflation is good, isn't it?  Think about other effects on the big picture Tasty.

You say $8 isn't enough.  Tasty, just a guess here, but your parents probably make a nice income, don't they?  So you probably haven't actually been out in the world, seeing how much money that is, have you?  My first job out of college paid a little over $20k per year.  I had to buy suits and ties pay for my own food and rent, all that crap.  I lived just fine.  Went out all the time, bought some nice furniture for my apartment, a new car.  All that stuff.  Not a shit load of luxury items, not new computers even.  But it was enough to live on.  Now, are you telling me that after the four year investment of time, money and effort I put in college, the kid at McDonalds deserves more cash?  I know teachers that don't make $20k a year to start.  They earn that pay more then anyone at McDonalds.  

The problem with your other arguments is that it assumes workers can leave their job at any time and go find another one.

How high is unemployment right now?  High, low, or normal?  And yes, workers (illegal immigrants don't count, they should just be deported, btw) can leave their job and find another one.  If they aren't qualified, they can spend the time to get qualified damnit.  Nobody is stopping them from going to college, trade school or anything else but themselves.  So they have to do it while working, I know plenty of people that have.  It's not impossible.  Migrant workers, that work farms or meat packing plants, that's a choice they make.  Does anyone force them to get on the bus in the first place?  Or come up to Michigan to pick crops?  No, they could chose to do other things.  We aren't facing unemployment rates in the extremes right now Tasty.  Let them save the $30 for a bus ticket to Detroit and work at McDondalds, it would be a raise for them, and there's plenty of help wanted signs out.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Under your union-free vision of America, management has all the power and the workers none. The ability to move to another job has always been within the workers power and doesn't really bring any clout to the bargaining table. Workers need to put food on their tables for their families, and they can't do it when they are constantly switching jobs.

Workers have something know as fair labor laws, both state and federal.  Don't they?  They have OSHA, don't they?

You ignore my comments about the Ford workers all taking pay cuts when the UAW finally bullied (and bully is the right term, check out the photos of the Rouge River Bridge if you don't believe me) their way in.  Unions today are blood suckers, harming much more then they help.    The UAW makes enough money to fucking fund casinos.  They are a big company onto themselves.  Look at the Teamsters!  More corrupt than any government or company.

Unions are part of the pendulum.  At one point, there wasn't OSHA, nobody looked out for the workers at all.  That's when Unions really got big.  But they are way too powerful now, not serving the purpose they once were, and being a drain on the economy.

No, fuck the unions.  If working for a plant or company is unfair, let them hold walkouts without the unions.  If people agree, the company will go under.  This isn't the Great Depression, where companies can get away with anything they want, not by a long shot.

I really don't think that people can be trusted with all the "liberty" you want to accord them.

Did I say anything against OSHA?  Anything at all Tasty?  Get off your soapbox far enough to read more clear please.  I have nothing at all against OSHA.  But you don't correct their shortcomings by working around them.  You fix them.  And OSHA still has the power to fine, don't they?  

And Tasty, maybe socialist wasn't strong enough, because this post shifts you over towards communist more.  "people can't be trusted with liberty"?  Wow.  If that's the way you feel, maybe America isn't exactly the right country for you.  There are plenty of socialist states out there, why want America to be another of them?  But, regardless, that statement is worthy of the best known fascists, it really was.

[tasty]

Bucc, your version of free-market capitalism is just as idealistic as anything I've ever said: it expounds all the virtues while taking into account few of the realities. You assume that economic sufficiency will be as easy for everyone else as it was for you. Here's a newsflash: very few people in the US have the intelligence, skills, or qualification that you do. You assume that anytime someone isn't making enough, they can go and find a better job. You assume that since you survived as a single male on 20k a year that its a sufficient wage for anybody. Not everyone has the job choices that you did bucc. For people trying to support families by working at McDonalds, they are doing that because for them there are no other choices. Do you think that people are consciously choosing to work at McDonalds because its easier or because its more fun? You state the yearly wages for full time work under fast food salaries but fail to take into consideration that those wages are considered below the poverty line for a family of four (its around 23k, and even that is considered pitifully low by most experts).

You are correct that migrant farm workers aren't forced to come to Iowa and work in meatpacking plants. But they are definetely coerced. When interviewed almost all of them say that they never would have gotten into meatpacking if they had any idea what their jobs would have entailed. Nobody is looking out for these workers and the way they are exploited is sickening, to me at least.

We also agreed that worker safety laws exist. However, I showed that they are not being enforced, which you chose to ignore. Unions have overrun their boundaries, especially where you live. But I'd rather live with the current situation than go back to the way things were before unions ever existed. And don't tell me there wouldn't be a huge change in pay and rights if unions  like UAW dissolved.

You say if people aren't qualified, they can go get qualified. What about people that have no money for school? What about people that have commitments like family? It's easy for you to say that people can do things like work and go to school at the same time when you have already achieved financial success. There's nothing more annoying to me than the economic "I've got mine, now you get yours" attitude. We are facing huge unemployment right now: "Jobless claims rose unexpectedly, with a seasonally adjusted 430,000 new jobless claims in the week ending March 1." Anything above 400,000 is considered a sign of a weak labor market.

My liberty comment was not meant as the facist tirade you took it to be, I just said it to show that I don't believe that libertarian economic views actually maximize freedom. I think that time and time again companies have shown that when given the chance they will exploit workers, the government, the environment, and the economy as much as possible to their own economic gain. Not everyone does, but many try. That's why I believe government must play a role in regulating this dark side of human nature. I don't think these problems work themselves out by themselves. What will the effect of maximizing the personal economic liberty of all citizens be? Personally, I think that unchecked power will create an environment of little freedom for those that do not have the power, thereby infringing on liberty. Corporate power already has enough influence in the US; why do you demand that they get more?

[kami]

I can only say one thing, I hadn't heard of Rush ever before I saw his name on these forums and I haven't heard his name outside the forums after that either. Moore however is pretty famous.

[tasty]

Yeah, btw how can you compare Traffic and Bowling for Columbine? Bowling for Columbine won the award for best documentary; the definition of documentary is "A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration." It is nonfiction by definition, its not like we're talking about Spinal Tap here. It couldn't have won best documentary if it wasn't true, just like Traffic couldn't have been nominated for best picture if it wasn't untrue.

And I don't think that Moore and Limbaugh are a fair comparison for one reason. Limbaugh hasn't done anything positive for anyone in his whole career. At least Michael Moore is fighting for someone, rather than fighting against someone. In "The Big One", he tries to get Phil Knight to at donate money to the Flint public schools since he refused to build a plant there. When Knight refuses, Moore writes a check of his own for 25,000 dollars and asks Knight if he will at least match it, which he does. I agree that the two use some of the same obnoxious tactics, but only Moore can argue that deep down he is a good guy. Just to contrast, Rush said Chelsea Clinton looked like a dog on national TV when she was only 14 years old. What did she ever do to him? What a despicable human being.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Bucc, your version of free-market capitalism is just as idealistic as anything I've ever said: it expounds all the virtues while taking into account few of the realities.

I don't agree at all.  What realities does it ignore?

You assume that economic sufficiency will be as easy for everyone else as it was for you. Here's a newsflash: very few people in the US have the intelligence, skills, or qualification that you do.

It is that simple.  Very simple.  It's not my fault stupid people try to live beyond their means.  They are on food stamps but buy playstation 2's instead of cheap card or board games for their entertainment.  

If people are too stupid to understand personal finance, I sure as hell shouldn't have to subsidize them, should I?  Yet my taxes bail them out all the time.

You state the yearly wages for full time work under fast food salaries but fail to take into consideration that those wages are considered below the poverty line for a family of four (its around 23k, and even that is considered pitifully low by most experts).

And what the hell is a family of four doing with only one of those incomes??  If you can't afford children, don't have them.  It's called darwinism.  Instead of rewarding stupid people that can't contribute to society for breeding more often, how about we change it?  And yes, this refers to welfare, but you are blurring the line yourself.

Two people, working full time at fast food in my area, would make around $40k/year.  They could also work different shifts, meaning they wouldn't need to pay out for daycare.  Now, if they want to get further in life, what say they earn it a little themselves.  Put in the time to get the training (especially before they decide to have kids).  The problem with your models Tasty, you are so fucking liberal, you take all personal responsibility off the people.  If they want better, most of the responsibility should still be on them, shouldn't it?

Nobody is looking out for these workers and the way they are exploited is sickening, to me at least.

They aren't looking out for themselves either.  If they went back and spread the word, they could end the cycle themselves too.  They can fight OSHA corruption, what have they tried?  I don't pitty people that don't try themselves.  And I don't know what they have tried either.

However, I showed that they are not being enforced, which you chose to ignore.

Now you are just getting insulting Tasty, I've addressed it twice now.  Here's the third time.  CORRUPTION IN OSHA NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED DIRECTLY.  Working around it, raising pay to make up for it, none of that makes sense.  Attack the cause, not the symptoms.  If OSHA is corrupt, fix it.  That's what I said.  Don't go around it.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

What about people that have no money for school? What about people that have commitments like family? It's easy for you to say that people can do things like work and go to school at the same time when you have already achieved financial success.

Hmm.  So I didn't work at all while in school you say?  I wasn't working 50+ hours a week when I got my MBA?  You are really going too far now.  Like I said, I know plenty of people that have done it.  Loans, financial aid, personal sacrifice, it's all there for anyone to chose.  I never said easy, I said possible.  They have the choice.  It's not easy, nor is it supposed to be easy.  You want more you have to work for it.  Nobody said it was supposed to be easy.

My liberty comment was not meant as the facist tirade you took it to be, I just said it to show that I don't believe that libertarian economic views actually maximize freedom.

First, my economic view isn't libertarian.  You are getting as bad at accusing me of this as you Democrats used to be at calling me a Republican.  I'm neither.

Second, it was fascist.  You said it to get a reaction maybe, but it was still fascist.  

Third, what I know for sure is that the Democrats and Republicans alike haven't done a great job with the economy as a whole.  Each going to one side or another.  You both suck at it.  

I think that time and time again companies have shown that when given the chance they will exploit workers, the government, the environment, and the economy as much as possible to their own economic gain. Not everyone does, but many try. That's why I believe government must play a role in regulating this dark side of human nature.

Have I said that government has no role to play (there you go, casting me as a libertarian again).  I'm looking at this through my graduate economics background, not any political agenda.  And no, I'm not using that to claim to be an expert in economics at all.  Just trying to get you to take off those libertarian colored glasses you seem to be wearing.  

What I've said is laws should be enacted and enforced to protect the worker, the company, the environment, et al.  If OSHA, EPA, or any of it is corrupt, fix them.  Enforce existing laws, don't add more blood sucking bottom feeders like Unions to do what these laws are supposed to do.  

You have also done a very good job of ignoring small businesses in favor of big corporations.  Things I've talked about would help promote small business growth.  

Supply and demand works, and works well.  Self interest is a universal concept, and it works too.  Greedy corporations wont put themselves out of business, which is the model you have given (putting their biggest market out of work would be killing themselves, after all).  

Do there need to be checks and balances like everywhere else?  YES.  Do they need to be in favor of the small picture or the big picture?  Big picture.  Because if you lean too far towards the small picture, the big one can tumble down around you.  

BTW, the consumer has more power then the corporations, and that has been proven in America time and time again.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Kami, he's very popular amongst the conservative crowd.  More popular then any single liberal voice.

It is nonfiction by definition, its not like we're talking about Spinal Tap here. It couldn't have won best documentary if it wasn't true, just like Traffic couldn't have been nominated for best picture if it wasn't untrue.

Bullshit.  Since when is the SAG, AMPS, or any other group of actors experts on it being factual.  It was fiction.  Staged, maybe not with script (but that wouldn't surprise me with Moore), but with editing in the least.  Spinal Tap probably had more actual truth in it than Roger&Me.

And I don't think that Moore and Limbaugh are a fair comparison for one reason. Limbaugh hasn't done anything positive for anyone in his whole career.

Yes Tasty, and in your increasingly shallow point of view, any conservative hasn't.  Bush has never done any good either, oh, and he's a racist in your book.  You hate too much Tasty.  The other side must be wrong for you.  Problem is, the other side for you isn't each issue, it's a political agenda.  

Limbaugh has done much for the elderly, for his conservative causes.  Do you know what he's given money to and not?  He follows his own beliefs, just like Moore.  

But, back on point, Moore is no better in his commentary, no matter the medium.  He's an asshole, every bit as much as Rush is.  You don't think so, well conservatives don't think Rush is either, do they?  You are being just as bad as they are now Tasty.  Just as wrong.

What a despicable human being.

I find them both equally distasteful.  They both suck ass.  Moore twists the truth every bit as much as Rush does.  Both following their own agenda.  You just agree with one of the agenda's is all.

[kami]

Ah, I thought you were talking about outside the US. Misunderstood.