Don't you love war threads?

[cookiedrei]

Iraq has had reprisals.  For the past 12 years, Iraq has had a no-fly zone, frequent bombings, and economic sanctions.  That's a big reason also why Iraq doesn't compare to Nazi Germany.  With all the imposition on the country, I find it hard to see them as a legitimate threat - especially with the inspectors complicating any weapons program.

And sorry, but it sounded a lot like some of Rumsfeld's speeches to blame Saddam for the war.  If Saddam is told unilaterally that he must leave - without any real provocation - it's hard to blame him for not giving up everything in his world.  No matter what Saddam does, the US has never been FORCED to cause Iraqi deaths.  The fact that they are doing so freely cannot absolve them of responsibility.  

These impositions you speak of are on account of US action, not the UN taking it into their own hands.

Also,  you say he isn't being provoked to leave... but what do you call all these ultimatums and troops? sounds like provocation to me. and also, you say you cant blame him for not wanting to give up everything but is it so much to ask the guy to take his family and some of his stuff and go into nice, quiet exile in one of the many countries willing to take him? Plus, provided he were a good leader, he would realize that what he has to give up in material wealth is dirt to what the people will suffer as a result of his actions. The guy is filthy stinking rich, he practically builds his palaces on the backs of his people... and you can defend him for not wanting to sacrifice what .0000001% of the world population couldn't even dream of having?

[jn.loudnotes]

Mostly cookie I just don't think it's the US's role to demand that of him.  However much he deserves to give up his cushy life, I still haven't seen a good rationale for why the United States should force that from him.

Also, while I'm complaining - there's obviously nothing I can do to improve the quality of Buccaneer's debating.  But one thing I've noticed a lot lately from all of us - IMO spurred by the quoting technique, but that's irrelevant - is disconnect in these threads.

This thread and others turn into several private conversations - we're not hardly conversing as a group any more.  It sucks.  I can PM or email Bondo, tasty, cookie, or Bucc anytime - why do it in a public place?  But this thread, for example, consists of several separate individual conversations at the moment:

Bucc vs Tasty
Bucc vs Bondo
Bucc vs LoudNotes
Bucc vs anyone else who dares to dissent
Cookie vs LoudNotes
Cookie vs Bondo
Cookie vs Tasty

This is getting pointless. . .

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Also, while I'm complaining

What, you do much of anything else around here?

IMO spurred by the quoting technique, but that's irrelevant

If it's irrelevant, why bring it up?  Oh, to be an asshole, I see.

This is getting pointless. . .

What's pointless is you always telling us we are debating incorrectly.  Drop it already.  You are just a fucking broken record.

Do you have to bitch about it in every single post?  Do ya?  Maybe, posting and debate would go much better if you just droped it, and left just the topics and hand be argued.  No, you'd rather keep making this personal, and dragging it off topic.  Way to make it better!  WOOHOO!  Nice job.  

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

Hmmmm....Doctor Py prescribes a spirit lifter to relieve the stress in this thread.
http://homepage.mac.com/pyrex1/radio.mp3  Enjoy!

[cookie]

it's not pointless that we have debates, thats what forums are about. Plus, the people you listed are just about the only really active, serious posters on here.

However much he deserves to give up his cushy life, I still haven't seen a good rationale for why the United States should force that from him.

the rationale is that he is killing his country and his people, and poses a threat to us and other nations around him. what more do you need, the man is psychotic! plus, if we don't do it, who will? and preemptively, if you say it isn't our place, who would be just in removing him? what makes us wrong in desposing a despot, and what makes someone else right? the UN couldn't give any better or different reason for removing him than the ones we're giving now. plus, any guy who sets his own countries oil fields on fire and throws the money of his own starving people away doesn't need to be in office, anyhow. Like i've said before, he lives in luxury and utter decadence while his people suffer and live in fear... how you can defend his position in any light or form i don't know.

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

Hmmmm....Doctor Py prescribes a spirit lifter to relieve the stress in this thread.
http://homepage.mac.com/pyrex1/radio.mp3  Enjoy!

PLEASE!! I BEG YOU!!

[Mr.Wuggles]

Cookie (my sister) is god damn right! That bastard doesnt give a f*** about anyone else but him. These democrat bastards have thrown themselves into a state of denial , forces their eyes not to believe the missles fired were scuds. They still say there is still no proof, when in plain sight on the side of the missle scraps there is a huge 5 x 5 label saying, "Danger, highly toxic material airel missle." Seriously, have you seen this new protest in California where they puke for peace? Some other protesters were on the Golden Gate Bridge, blocking it when some idiot fell to his death hanging a stupid banner. Kill Saddam then move on to Iran... those terrorist supporting bastards.

[tasty]

That girl on py's mp3 was really bad at supporting her position. She made all liberals look pathetic. I wish I could have been on the show instead of her. I still have to pack my stuff tonight, but tomorrow I'll respond to all the other stuff when I actually have time, like the U Michigan stuff. Only thing I'll say now is that I think Bush recognizes that these things (death penalty, states rights, etc) are not directly racist but have racist applications, and for him not to address those applications is wrong. BTW Bucc, are you a libertarian? You seem to hold the libertarian view on most (not all) issues.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

That girl on py's mp3 was really bad at supporting her position. She made all liberals look pathetic.

Sadly, many of the people, on both extremes of the issue, are just that pathetic.  And really bad is an understatement Tasty.  I think my dog could make a better argument then that.

Only thing I'll say now is that I think Bush recognizes that these things (death penalty, states rights, etc) are not directly racist but have racist applications, and for him not to address those applications is wrong.

Ok, not to address them is wrong.  I'll give you that.  Like I've maintained, I don't like the man or his stance much either.  But not addressing some of those issues does not make him a racist either.  It just makes him shallow and a bunch of other things =D.  

BTW Bucc, are you a libertarian? You seem to hold the libertarian view on most (not all) issues.

Haven't you asked me this a few times?  No, I don't follow any political party, and I never have.  I'm too independent for that.  I do agree with them on most issues more then any other single party, so if I were forced to pick based on my political preferences, they would be in the top 3.  I fall somewhere between Green, Libertarian and Reformist Parties.  They all make a hella lot more sense to me then Republicans or Democrats, but they are all a little too narrow and focused.  But, like I said, I'm a GDI.

[Mr.Wuggles]

Headline Bucc, liberals are pathetic.

[alaric]

Headline Wuggles: Name calling is the fastest way to show your own ignorance.

Also, loudnotes: Welcome to democracy! I hope you enjoy your stay.

[kami]

Wuggles, no one is defending Saddam, his rolemodel is Stalin, you CAN'T defend that sob. BUT that doesn't mean you should attack Iraq outside the boundaries of the UN, I believe that's what the democrats object to.

[Mr.Wuggles]

*sigh* kami kami kami.... the democrats could care less about america. they dont care about war they are just anti-bush, looking for something to point fingers at him for. ill write more later but please dont get me wrong i love alot of democrats for who they are and i hate democrats themselves!!!!!!

[kami]

Just one question, how can you like Bush when he ruins your economy?

[Mr.Wuggles]

becuase he is my president and i stand firm by his side and i take chances and dives in econimy its kids stuff with econmy when war rages

[jn.loudnotes]

Alaric - I think I'm personally more in favor of an enlightened despotism, perhaps with an advisory republican Parliament.  The only problem is when the despot isn't as enlightened as desirable. . .

Whatever the case, I can no longer effectively debate with Buccaneer (although he would argue that I never have )  I mentioned it was a problem for me, he decided debating with me wasn't important enough to do anything about it, and that about covers it.  

Kami, I ask myself that every day.  And the economy is only the beginning. . .

[Mr.Wuggles]

The bottom line is the bully is gonna keep bulling ppl(Saddam), Until someone punches him in the nose(U.S.). I hope the war ends soon and "So Damn Insane" dies.

[cookie]

our economy was going to go into recession/depression anyway, there wasn't much bush could do about it.. sure, he certaintly hasn't helped it but you can't blame it all on one guy.

and also, maybe some people don't hate their president for "ruining their economy" because money isn't everything  

[Mr.Wuggles]

Looks like i only have the support of my sister....

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Headline Bucc, liberals are pathetic.

Headline Wuggles, so are conservatives.  

Anyone out there on the frindge of opinion, far right or far left, are in the same boat as far as I'm concerned.