The return of the Draft

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Saddam was already found guilty of violating sanctions by importing missile parts and technology, and he will soon be caught with WMD...it is just a matter of time.

For those who say our rights have been taken away, I say to you: go to a third world country and live in it. You would appreciate what you still have here in America. You whine that our rights are gone, but for the most part, I dont care. The simple fact is that we have more rights than most of the rest of the world. Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck if Ashcroft and the FBI wiretap my phone because you know what? I have nothing to hide.

Now back on topic...in the very and slim chance that a draft might get instituted, I would fufill my obligations and fight for my country. It is a priviledge to live in this great country of ours (no matter how much some of you leftist/socialists hate it) and it is our duty to serve it whenever she calls for it.

Yes, I have had a little to drink, but that doesn't change my opinion on this issue one iota.

[jn.loudnotes]

Tasty I agree with you for the most part, but why did you type all those question marks?  Or is that just a Safari issue. . .?

But as for a draft, I have a question for Ben and Ace and Assassin.  On the one hand, I value people like you who are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for your country.  And I think I would too. . .in World War 2 for example.

But I don't really understand your lack of contingencies.  You are all thinking people, and thus how can you accept whatever your government tells you is right?  If our leaders were infallible, I would not hesitate to do whatever they asked of me.  Similarly, if I held them in such high regard that I believed them to be better people than myself, I would follow their orders.

However, Congress and our president often make decisions with which I don't agree.  If I don't support the war in Iraq, is it really sensible for me to fight in it?

As a draftee, I would make cannon fodder at best, because my heart wouldn't be in it.  Fighting for freedom is a powerful motivator, but what the hell are you fighting for if you don't believe in it??

Obviously, no army or defense would function if every citizen and soldier questioned the motives behind the war.  But I cannot help but think, and thus form an opinion.  And I will not lay down my life for something if I believe doing so would be in vain.

In this case, I do.  So I am fundamentally against the draft, because I think I can contribute far more to this country alive.

Egotistical perhaps, but it's not about me.  I would die to save my country, but not simply to destroy another.

[Jackal.aHa!]

Well said Mr. LoudNotes

And assassin, i think communism is a great idea on paper.  But it can never work because of crazy leaders who cant handle powers and people wont give up wealth for an overall utophia (is that spelled right?).  All they care about is status..."me, eat with him..but im rich" haha, rich folk

Did you know Bill Gates makes more money than Iraq economy in one year.

[(SiX)Ben]

Loth and Loudnotes,
    My reply to both of you is the same and is very simple to understand. Since Loudnotes best understands unemotional logistics, I will speak in statistics. Now, if or when the draft is instituted the people are given 3 choices. 1) Flee to Canada or some other country that will accept you. 2) Get locked up in jail. 3) Go and Fight...

  Now, I understand that less then 25% of the population will choose option 1... And less then 1% will choose option 2. Most men would die fighting for this country; strangers, relatives, my best friends. Fleeing from the war would just be deserting your friends. Sure you could say, "I disagree with the politics." but I don't believe when you go to war politics is the main reason you're fighting. You're fighting for your country, for your friends, for yourself. If you lose that fight not only you, but all your friends and family could be wiped out. (Ok, I lied, emotional arguement is involved) I don't know about you, but I'd take bullets in the chest for my best friends.

  I think Black Hawk Down pretty much stated my arguement perfectly. Some people did not want to fight in the war. Some people felt after they had been in the battle they should never have to return again. Others were rushing back in for their friends. Which would you rather be? The end of the movie states it perfectly, the main character is saying he never wants to go through the battle again. He knew the politics were jacked up and didn't understand why he was there. The return speech basically sums everything up for me. When you're at war you don't fight for the politics. You don't think strategy when dodging bullets. Everything is about the man to the right and to the left of you. When it comes to a call for arms, I won't let them down.

In summary, I'm not going to fight for the politics or for Bush, but for my friends and for America. I don't want to let people down, I don't want to see my friends die, and anything I can do to save their lives, I will, even if it means giving up my own.

Ben

[alaric]

I agree with Loth, Loud, AND Ben.

Loth and Loud are talking about a different level of right and wrong. They are talking about wether or not we should, as individuals, support a government that commits essentially the same crimes we rebelled against in the revolutionary war. They're talking about resisting an unjust government. And for that I admire and support them.

Ben is talking about a very different responsibility. The responsibility to friends, family, country. Ben's loyalty to the aforementioned is inspiring and admirable. When you're in the shit and it's all on the line, I know I could count on people like Ben to be there backing me up. That is just as important as Loth and Louds wanting to have a fair and honorable government.

So, I agree with all points concerned. It is of primary importance to decide for yourself if the actions of your government are moral, just actions. That is the responsibility of EVERY citizen. If you feel the actions of your government are not moral, you have the responsibility to make your voice heard and attempt to stop those immoral actions.

BUT, and this is a big but, once the shooting starts survival of friends, family and country become paramount. It's impossible to improve a country that's been destroyed by war. You must first insure the country's survival, then go about fixing what's wrong. Trust me, once it becomes clear that America's sons and daughters died for nothing more than the greed of the top 1%, heads WILL roll.

So then it becomes a question of time, resist the war until it looks like America might actually be in danger of losing, then insure the survival of the country and after we have won, find those responsible for making the mess and hold them accountable for the atrocities commited against what this country really stands for.

[Jeb]

Is their anything valid about thinking the draft is going to happen? If we where going to fight north korea who has the 4th largest standing army in the world there would be a draft, but i'd doubt there would be on for just iraq.

This is a tad off topic but with the whole equal rights movment, do you think we would ever see women being drafted, or do they only want the easy rights?

[(SiX)Ben]

I'm thinking no about the whole draft issue. If Bush did that he'd just fuck himself over WORSE then he has already politically.

Also, from what I gatehered about the women issue, I talked to the leader of the sexist womans club at school (or just a really pro woman lady) who bitches about equal rights. She said its not fair to woman, but she doesn't mind things being like that.

Ben

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

There is nothing valid about any draft issue...the only way a draft would be instituted is if we were to take on China or Russia.

Any action in North Korea would be a UN action, and would involve South Korea's standing army (~800,000 men), and numerous troops from UN member nations (in this probable case, the forces would come from the US, Australia, Canada, and logistics from Euro member nations)

Also the number and size of the North Korean army is misleading...they have the 4th largest standing[/b] army because they carry no reserves...they are all on active duty. What I am getting at is that countries like the U.S. could double or triple the size of their armed forces if they were to put everyone on active duty...so that statistic of 4th largest should be thrown out the window.

[BTs_Colin]

I know this has very little to do with the topic but I'm 17 and planning on join around 21-22.

That's why you should move to Canada. If you want you get involved but only in the bigger wars and when you do you kick ass (Canadian snipers in Afghanistans = ownage!). Other then that we just drink beer and watch hockey.

 Actually I think I might join the British Army. After some school , work and travel.

[Ace]

For those who say our rights have been taken away, I say to you: go to a third world country and live in it. You would appreciate what you still have here in America. You whine that our rights are gone, but for the most part, I dont care. The simple fact is that we have more rights than most of the rest of the world. Quite frankly, I don't give a fuck if Ashcroft and the FBI wiretap my phone because you know what? I have nothing to hide.

That's quite frankly a load of horseshit. Just because we are still better off than most of the world doesn't mean jack. As citizens of the United States of America, we should hold ourselves to a higher standard than everyone else. If you want to throw out the Constitution, you might as well get out of the country. I for one am not going to sacrifice my rights and liberties. There are other ways to achieve security, ways that don't involve trampling on fundamental American ideals. I hate to use this clich?, but if we bend the Constitution in response to the acts of terrorists, the terrorists have won.

[(SiX)Ben]

To back Ace up, Assassin, check my quote.
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security."
Benjamin Franklin   

He sums it up well.

Ben

[Cossack]

Bravo Ace, looks like he got to it first Sin. You want the government to go into your house without a warrant to look for drugs? Eventhough you have none. What makes America such a great country is that it is not ruled by the present mood of the people, but ruled by law and common principles devised 200 odd years ago. If you dont like the constitution and pussy librals, than go move to Iran. There you can be as religously fundemeantalist as you want. I hope many Americans dont have the same sentiment as you Sin, because that is a big prerequisite to a facist government, people who do not care about their rights.

As for the DPRK, they are on active duty because they are still technicaly at war. The draft will not happen, thats all there is to it, especialy for a war against a country that is so small. The 50,000 Americans in Korea will do the fighting along with the ROK's men.

[jn.loudnotes]

Ben, like Alaric, I agree with you too.  However, there's one fundamental problem with your argument in the case of war with Iraq or North Korea.

If you lose that fight not only you, but all your friends and family could be wiped out.

I too would take that bullet in the chest for those friends and family.  But what if we're talking about a war of aggression in which your family is not going to be harmed in any way shape or form -- unless you go off to war and die.

The only way American civilians would die in a war with N Korea is if they launched a nuclear missile at the United States.  If that happened, there would be no draft, because the instantaneous response would be for us to H-bomb their country into the Stone Age.  And I use a crude expression there because it would be a crude and terrible act, but I don't see that we'd be left with any other choice.

I would go to war to protect America.  I would not go to war simply because my government wanted me to, for its own aims.

[KoS PY.nq.ict]

Well said loud...that's what I was trying to convey in my previous post, but you said it better.  

[jn.loudnotes]

Thanks!  

Just thought I'd add one thing though Ben.  I don't think it's reasonable to think in moralistic terms when you discuss war.  Anytime you're pontificating on the doom of thousands or millions, it should be very hard to talk in the same breath about honor and protection of your own insignificant family.  War brings about a kind of cold unfeeling logic.  Stark, emotionless horror is its product.  Ultimately, you have to make decisions, as a world power, about whether it is better to kill millions of an "enemy" to save the lives of thousands of your own people.

Is it?

[Supernatural Pie]

Why would we send in thousands of ground troops when we can just send in our bombers to beat the shit outta them for a few weeks until they back down...  

Was also wondering, if there was a draft, roughly what % of 18 year old males would go to war. 5?10?20?50?75? etc.

[Cossack]

Whats the old saying, "The only Just war is a war of defence?" This holds true for Iraq and the DPRK (North Korea, the accronym stands for democratic republic of Korea if you guys didnt know) Of coarse that can be twisted in many ways. The DPRK is just doing this whole thing  to create attention to itself. If I were a small country, and the US named me as part of the axis of evil, wouldnt you be paranoid? By the way, it seems that paranoia has gripped the United States entirely. Everyone is paranoid of almost any "potential security risk" no matter how abstract it may seem.

[tasty]

i thought that when the draft is enstated that the age order went like this: 20, 21, 22, 19, 18? then older people as needed. at least thats how i think it went in vietnam, and i think thats how its supposed to go? i could be wrong though, correct me if i am.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

You are assigned draft numbers by the Selective Service and the lower numbes are chosen first in blocks...at least that is how it when with Vietnam.

As for criticizing me on my above post, I only wanted to point out that almost all of you take what we have forgranted and throw the term "our rights" around loosely. Sure, I would love to have all of "the rights" granted to us by the Constitution, but the Constitution and other laws were created to be flexible in times of crises, etc.

Cossack: Yeah I know what DPRK is, but I refuse to call them that because they are neither Democratic or a Republic.

[Mr. Lothario]

     "Flexible in times of crisis" is only a justification if there is a crisis that is threatening the existence of the Union. There is most certainly not any such crisis at present. It's very likely that there soon will be, but a crisis created by the head of the government in order to get itself more money and power is hardly a convincing justification, either.