Major Hostage Situation in Moscow

[cookie]

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/russia/chechnya might help. i got alot of my information from there a few weeks ago when i had to do an extemp. speech about human rights i'll look for more online info later, i can also recommend some books... hwoever right now is time for physics  





signed, cookie
 mathematics failure extraordinaire

[Cossack]

Ok cookie. I have settled down now. You know how you felt the day of 9-11. Thats how I felt when I did that post. Oh btw that was a goldmember impesonation. Zaitsev that joke went *wooosh right over your head. I do have to admit I have some hatred towards the Chechens because of the apartment bomb blasts and my cousin was executed by Chechen rebels in the Caucuses. Lets take a look at Chechnya's history just to educate you people about the situation in my country. Chechnya along with the rest of the Caucuses were colonized by Russian Don Cossacks in the early 19th Century. Since then more and more Russians have been moving into Chechnya. During the war the whole chechen population along with Ossetians and Kalmyks were deported to Central Asia and Kazakhstan under Stalin (who happens to be a Georgian from the Caucuses). These ethnic groups were removed back to their homelands during the Kruschev era. They lived till 1991 when Dudayeev a Soviet fighter pilot stationed in Estonia came back to his home of Chechnya. He started a Ghandi like movement to obtain autonoumy and independence. Unfortunently Islamic fervor took hold and violence reigned. Yeltsin ordered the Russian Army to supress (not invade) the rebellion. This went disastorously for the Russian Army who just suffered from the breakup. Chechnya and Russia conducted peace talks and Chechnya was entitled to self-government under Russian occupation. In 1999 violence continued (by this time Dudayeev was dead) and Al Queda got into the war. Pakistanis, Afghanis, and Saudis entered in as Chechen volunteers and came to Russia via Georgia. Then the apartment blasts in Moscow happened. Yeltsin ordered the now more disiplined Russian military to go in and supress the new Chechen outrage. Now here we are. Now let me tell you why Russia wants Chechnya. First off Chechnya will never be independent, it already has autonomous republic status (the most indepndent you can get from Moscow). The Chechen resistance had attacked Dagestani and Ossetian citizens. Chechen Resistance is carring out a guerilla war with the help of Arab, Pushtun, and Punjabi allies. Many Arab nations such as Iraq (wich eally does not help Russia's cause), Iran, Syria, Turkey, Azerbajian, and Egypt have came out against Chechen rebels. This brings me to another point. Someone said that Russia making Peace talks with Chechens is like Americans making peace talks with Al Queda. Well guess what. Many Many Al Queda members are Chechen. There was a big battle in Kunduz, Afghanistan where many Chechens took part on the side of the Taliban. This does not justify human rights abuses done by Interior Soldiers. Those who have done these actions should be punished. I dont want to give the excuse that it is war and that what happens but it will happen, and all you can do is punish the purpetrators.

[Cossack]

Heh Ran outta room. Anyhow it is imperative that Russia keep Chechnya because it would lead to further outrage in the Caucuses. The Dagestanis are peacefula and are unlikley to rebel, but Ossetia would most likley be a new target. New outrage and maybe even possibly a second breakup of Russia could happen. Weather you like it or not almost everything is connected to Russia in some way. Most of the worlds timber, bauxite alluminum ore,  titanium, diamonds. Not to mention vast oil fields in Siberia and a very large area in The TransCaucus and Caspian areas. This is not for Russia's intrests abroad, this is a matter of internal security. Russia already dominates the economic world of the Caucus republics of Georgia, Azerbadjian, and Armenia.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Sin, I don't really see what would have been bad about letting the South go in the Civil War.  It is a Republican section of the US.  They should have their own country where they can avoid progression.  As regions go, the South is the poorest, the stupidest, and the least healthy (its proven so don't get uppity if you live there).

OMG, does anyone else want to field this so it's not just me picking on him?

Since when is the south Republican.  The bible belt (the states that were in the confederacy) are all considered Democratic states.  Georga, the Carolinas, Virginia, Tennessee, can you get more Democrats then there??

I wont even touch what would have happened to our nation if it had actually split.  I'm thinking that we may be singing "God Save the Queen" now if that were the case.  Or worse.

Cookie, you and me are just splitting hairs =P

Cossack, you don't really need to apologize.  I'm sure you handled yourself much better then most of the people here after 9/11.  You may be letting your anger rise early, since the situation isn't over yet, but I understand your anger.

One thing that you bring up that bears asking, to all of you, does the Chnechen government support any of these terrorists (that's what they are, blowing up buildings and taking hostages)?  Because, if the government doesn't support them, it makes it hard to have peace talks.  It's kind of like the England / Ireland problems of old.  The IRA was never recognized to speak to, until after they stopped most of the random bullshit bombings of innocents.  Killing soldiers in what you think is a war is one thing, but killing others to make a statement is another.  Is this situation along those lines?  Does anyone remember the old IRA besides me?

[Bondo]

Since when is the south Republican.  The bible belt (the states that were in the confederacy) are all considered Democratic states.  Georga, the Carolinas, Virginia, Tennessee, can you get more Democrats then there??

You say it yourself, the BIBLE BELT.  Which goes with the religious RIGHT.  Oh, and I'm talking Republican now, not Republican at the time of the civil War when Republicans were actually worthwhile (and not supported by the south).

[Cossack]

This is about to get really off topic. Start a thread you two.

[Jeb]

Bondo confuses me,
but yes the southern united states sucks (mostly texas), to many closed minded people who are easly influenced by religion in trucks for me. I guess i just don't like it cause i'm the lone athiest, who doesn't drive a domestic car.

[cookie]

splitting hairs? i dont understand

and coss, on 9/11 i felt confused and lost but i didnt feel hatred torward anyone. i still dont, im just sad that the world can't be at peace because someone screwed things up. I still maintain that was is sometimes necessary but never the means to an end, just the facilitator. Neither Russia nor Chechnya will get anywhere with more bloodshed.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

One thing that you bring up that bears asking, to all of you, does the Chnechen government support any of these terrorists (that's what they are, blowing up buildings and taking hostages)?  Because, if the government doesn't support them, it makes it hard to have peace talks.  It's kind of like the England / Ireland problems of old.  The IRA was never recognized to speak to, until after they stopped most of the random bullshit bombings of innocents.  Killing soldiers in what you think is a war is one thing, but killing others to make a statement is another.  Is this situation along those lines?  Does anyone remember the old IRA besides me?

Bucc, the current Chechen government has been installed by Moscow...the leader of the old one was executed by Russian forces in the late 1990's. That being said, the Chechen rebels do support this mission in my opinion because it was masterminded by their special operations commander.

Their demand is for Russian forces to leave the territory of Chechnya and let them be independent as they were in 1997, 1998, and parts of 1999.

Sadly, the cultural hatred has roots so deep that I doubt peace is a viable option anywhere in the near future. Peace with Chechnya in today's climate has to b Russian occupation and domination, because that is what essentially got the current president, Vladimir Putin, elected to office.

For clarification: Bucc, even though not fully recognized, the IRA did have dialogue with the British Government through it's political wing, Sein Fein.

As for Bondo: Ask a history professor at your school about what would have happened if we didn't get the South back. Letting them go would have had major repurcussions on the world as we see it today...just go and see what a decent professor would say.

Also, pull your head out of your ass. While it is called the Bible Belt, it is not safe to assume that they are all Republicans like you are making claim to. Your use of poor logic dismays me and your lack of facts makes you look like an idiot. Look how the states voted the last few election cycles and you will see that they aren't all Right Wing Christian radicals like Pat Robertson that you make them out to be.

[Cossack]

As Sin said the current chechen government is Moscow freindly. However it is impossible to make peace talks because the Chechen resistance is like the Mujahdeen. There are so many groups acting together. There is no orginized leadership anymore because much of the Chechen Guerilla leadership has been assasinated. So who are ya gonna talk to?

[*DAMN Silent Killer]

Its hard to take down guirillas just like in VietNam(VietCong)

They dont have a designated leader like tarrorists

I think we should definatly keep it under control

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Its hard to take down guirillas just like in VietNam(VietCong)

They dont have a designated leader like tarrorists

Silent Killer, take this in the nicest possible way.  READ A HISTORY BOOK.  The North Vietnamese did have a leader.  A very very stong leader.  They faught a guiralla type war, just like the USofA did back in 1776 in many cases (we didn't stick to it, but when used, it was the shit).  The indians taught us that.  We had strong leadership back then too.

[jn.loudnotes]

Off topic or not, I can't help but join in the fray.  Bucc you shouldn't have all the fun:

As regions go, the South is the poorest, the stupidest, and the least healthy (its proven so don't get uppity if you live there).

I do live there, and I am going to get uppity.  First of all, Bucc, I'm sorry to say that Bondo does have the correct generalization.  Some of this area is somewhat backwards, and neanderthalan thinking permeates all levels of society.  But that doesn't mean we don't produce smart, rich, and clean healthy people too!

What I mean by that is that we do have more Republicans, but for Bondo to suggest that the US abandon us to the KKK, Christian Coalition, and NRA seems very contrary to any humanitarian feelings he has espoused in the past.  

But every area has its share of misguided people. . .where the hell did you get your "proof?!"  Perhaps whichever region you inhabit might better deserve the title of "stupidest" (and that's only because I can't attest to your health or income)

[Mr.Mellow]

Wow. Russia stormed the theater apparently, and there was very little loss of life. Of course, the information is still coming in, but it sounds like a semi-happy ending.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Loudnotes, by all means, jump right in here.  But it is easy pickings when someone makes those over generalized statements.

My reference to being the "Democratic South" is because many of your fine southern states, that once upon a time wanted to leave the USofA, are now controled by Democrats.  I posted a link about it earlier.  This is in no way to mean that you don't have your share of rednecks or Republicans.  I'm sure you have both, just like every other state (we have rednecks up here I know, and are home to the Republican Party).

Back on topic, I just got back from the bar.  What's happening in Moscow?

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

The Russians pumped the Opera house full of sleeping gas and raided it. No count so far on hostage deaths, but supposedly 36 of the 40 Chechens were killed. The last 4 escaped somehow.

From what I see right now, the Alpha team and others did a superb job of preventing the main explosives from detonating and rescuing most of the hostages.

[Cossack]

60 hostages died. Some from stress, some from lack of needed medication, and some from the stand off between Spetsnaz, Alpha, and the Chechen Rebels. The Alpha plan was a very good plan, I would not have thought of sleeping gas personally. Then again I am not a special forces commander. You see our Army is not as incompetant as some of you Westerners make it out to be.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Except for letting a few get away, I'd say this was a much better then expected outcome.  Much better then I would have expected.  

I know drugging the food and water that goes in is a normal tatic (just mild stuff to make them slower, but not realize they've been drugged).  I didn't know there was a sleeping gas that could work that quickly, and still be relatively safe.  

Well done by the rescue forces.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Well, apparently some of the hostages died by choking on their own vomit, but you can look at it as a few dying for the greater good. The big thing is that the major explosive devices didn't detonate which probably saved hundreds of other lives.

[(SiX)Ben]

Tell that to their families

Ben