Major Hostage Situation in Moscow

[alaric]

30-40 Chechen rebels have sized a moscow theatre and are holding up to 1000 (yes one thousand) people hostage! The rebels have lots of guns and explosives, it doesn't look good...  

Does this remind anyone else of a classic RS level?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2354753.stm

Maybe this will remind us Americans of how small our sniper problem really is. The world is still a very dangerous place, we've had it pretty easy in America for a long time and I'm very thankful for that, but I fear that America is about to become a very dangerous place....


*oops, didn't realize this was already posted. sigh....*

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Now if only half those 1000 peopole had hand guns.  Think how it would be different.

Seriously, it sounds pretty freaky.  The only demand I head was that they want an end to the war.  That seems a little iffy to me.  

I also read that they let over 100 women and children go so far.

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

*Also posted in the other thread*

20 or so Chechens have the Opera house partially mined and they are all armed with auto rifles. The FSB (I think that is what they call themselves now...anyway, ex KGB) has sent in their 'Alpha' squads, much like the FBI inderdiction teams, but much more para-military.

Unfortunately, $20 says that at least 20 friendlies are killed, or that the Moscow government caves in and gives into the terms demanded.

Yeah, this is serious shit and Russia has far more problems than we do. These same Chechen rebels types were blowing up apartment buildings in Moscow in 1999 and were strong enough to defeat the Russian army in the Chechen separtist war of 1996. These people are hardcore motherfuckers and it wouldn't surprise me if they commit suicide and take everyone with them. For those of you Conspiracy theorists wondering, yes they come from an Islamic background.

[Colin]

Buccaneer, even if all 1000 of those people had handguns, i highly doubt that they would bring them to an opera...



  :DColin----Cuo
*Retired*

[EUR_Zaitsev]

The Sniper has been caught and you cant relate him to 1000 people held up. TRUE I sympathize with the citizens of Isreal and Russia however they now have a democratic process and purhaps need to open up serious talked with Chechnia and Palestine otherwise things like this will become all too common.

[Cossack]

I think this post would not be complete without my response to it. The Chechens are miscrients, terrorists, and as sin said,"hardcore mutha fukas."  I hope they are killed. My Cousin was killed in the 1996 war. Moscow will not "cave" in. Putin will not give in to the demand of these barbarians. Not to mention the War is not being fought by Chechens much anymore. Russians have killed most of the Rebels off while Pakistani and other Muslims are taking the fight wich is why we are thinking of attacking the Pankasi gorge in Georgia. For those of you who dont know, Georgia gives asylum to Chechen guerillas in the Pankasi gorge, where they inflitrate into Ossetia, Chechnya, and Dagestan (Russian provinces). The Russian Spetznaz is very well trained and are being sent their, however the task ahead of them is very daunting. This will be much more tougher than the Iranian hostage crisis. The theater is mined and they claim to have 2 support beams wrapped in dynomite. They will blow the whole theater up if they hear the Russians come in or make a sound. It is very hard and I am afraid they will fail. I think the US would too if this situation happened to you people.
*Note: I am angry right now, I heard about the incident 5 minutes ago from my uncle in Moscow.

[Brain]

just to make it easier for everybody, i locked the other thread on the same topic.  if you want to reference any of the posts in that thread here's the link
http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/yabbse/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=2711

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Cossack, I don't think this would matter if it were in Russia or the USA.  It's a shitty hard nut to crack.  No government wants to cave, especially now.  Both countries have very good spec ops, trained for this sort of thing.  Probably the thrid and fourth best in the world (have to give the Isrealies the tops in hostage rescue, but they also get the most practice and the Government will not ever give in.  SAS is reportable the second best at this. which makes sense with all the experience they've had too).

I actually hope that these "rebels" are taken alive.  Quick death and martyrdom are too good for them.

[Cossack]

There are two things I hate in this world. Racism and Chechens. Bucc I completley agree with your statement. This is an extreamly hardnut to crack. I have no idea how they will do it personally. These chechens that took the opera I hate, I despise them for doing this to my country and my hometown. You do have to hand it to them, they are very samrt and this is a very good plan. Now lets hope that alpha and spetsnaz can make a better plan.

[EUR_Zaitsev]

Hating Checnians is Racism and stereotyping. I am sure there are chechnians just like you. You think this is bad you must read the truth on what happens during the Russian round ups of Chechnians It is pointless for Russia to blatantly attack Chechnia there must be peace talks

[Bondo]

Ahem, I believe he was parodying Goldmember.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Hating Checnians is Racism and stereotyping.

I wasn't aware that Checnians were their own race either (They are not, btw).  Also, there was no stereotyping there.  To stereotype, he'd have to have said somthing ABOUT them, not that he hated them.  If he said that everyone named Zaitsev was an ignorant boob, that would be stereotyping.  If he just said he hated Zaitsev, that's not.  He has to paint the picture in order to sterotype.

I think the word you were looking for was biggotry.  Stereotyping just doesn't apply.  

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

Zaitsev, you are ignorant. Your comments about letting Chechnya go is like us freely giving up Alaska or some other state if they didn't want to be part of the Union or us letting the South go during the civil war. Chechnya is a resource rich region that Russia desperately needs to flex its power throughout the Caucasus region in central Asia.

What you fail to realize is that peace talks with the Chechen rebels by Russia is like the United States trying to have peace talks with Al-Qaeda...and I hope you aren't stupid enough not to understand what that means. Chechens are responsible for some real dirty stuff in Moscow, and if you think you are scared of the D.C. sniper, in 1999, residents of Moscow were afraid that their apartment building was going to get blown up by these rebels who are well armed, trained, and equiped to fight their battles.

For the most part, Chechens and Russians are mortal enemies. They hate each other with a passion and no "peace talks" will ever end the conflict. the only way to end it is for the Russian Army to go in there once and for all and eliminate the threat - which is not an easy thing to do.

Back on topic: These guys were definitly well prepared. They are heavily armed with rifles, bazookas, and other assorted explosives. Apparently they have mined most of the building, and strapped enough explosives to the support beams to bring down the entire building. On top of that, they strapped explosives to some people for the purpose of probably killing the most people if they decide to blow their charges. As we have already learned, they are deadly serious about not letting anyone escape - shooting one person and breaking their hand and firing bazookas at two others.

The way this is boiling down, I fear for the lives of everyone inside that Opera house. Any conclusion that does not end peacefully is going to end up with a resurgent Russian army plowing into Chechnya and another full fledged war to start (or flare up if you don't think that most recent war is over).

[cookie]

Zaitsev makes a good point you all ignore.

Russian occupation of Chechnya has led to immense abuses of human rights- all on behalf of the Russian troops. The UN human rights watch has long been urging the US and Russia to help cease the violence but neither have complied, and somehow, I can almost understand why these terrorists are doing what they are doing. Russian troops in Chechnya have violated women, rounded up civilians and executed them, looted buisnesses, and they continue to torture/beat detainees. There is evidence of mass, unmarked graves being dug. People "disappear" in the hands of Russian forces. Zaitsev alludes to this and you call him ignorant, i don't understand. Anyway, my problem with Assassin/Cossack's points of view is the fact they fail to look at both sides of the story. To automatically assume that the greater, larger power is always the just one and that Russia has the right to subjugate Chechnya just because it suits their interests is flawed, in my opinion. I think that Chechnya and Russia could work something out but the fact that Russia is "flexing it's power" in oppresive ways prevents solvency. While I do think Chechnya SHOULD be a part of Russia, I understand the rebelliousness due to the way that policy has been carried out. I think that both parties are to blame in different ways. You just need to take into account that Russia has done more harm to Chechnya than they have to Russia, it helps to understand the situation.

specifically on topic..
I think  this situation is extremely frightening.. and despite wanting to be optimistic  dont believe this thing is going to end without blood being spilled, on either side. I know that if the terrorists kill their hostages then there is going to be serious repercussions for the Chechnyan country, and if the rebels are killed and all goes well then it's going to lead to even more anti russian sentiment. I hope for the latter  

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Cookie, if the UN human rights watch has actually proven any of this (and I don't know either way, this is not a baited question) why hasn't the UN done something about it?  Urging the US isn't going to do any good, the US is already fighting it's own war (right or wrong, it just aint gonna get involved at this time).  

One point that you are missing though is that you just can't bow to terrorist demands like that.  It reinforces terrorism as a weapon.

Also, taking hundreds of non soilders hostage is not my idea of a good way to drum up support in the world opinion.  

I'm all for peace talks, but they are awefully hard to hold at the point of a gun, no?

[cookie]

Heh, to answer your first question bucc..

the UNHRW has tried numerous times. They refuse to let Russia into NATO because of these violations and they have approached Putin several times but to no avail. What else is there to do? Plus, the UN wanted the US to act quite a while before 9/11 but the US didn't want to for some pointless reason, i forget it though. And I doubt the UN would try and force Russia itself seeing as that might lead to more war which would be counterproductive.. and yes, there is evidence of these crimes. Perhaps later I will dig up the URLs from past readings

and secondly, I know that it's counterproductive to give into terrorists and i never advocated that.. perhaps you are referring to the part where i mentioned the two sides compromising? by saying so i wasn't talking about the hostage situation, i was talking about the Chechnya vs Russia situation. I don't believe in surrendering to the terrorists at all.. but i do believe in bilateral peace talks between the two countries which might preempt future events like the one at hand. In addition, i know that Russia wouldn't ever give into terrorists anyway. Russia isn't like us; human life isn't of as great a value. I don't say this to be offensive or anything.. this is actually a statement made by a Russian citizen i talked with today.

And it's good that you're for peace talks, but remember, peace talks begin at the point of a gun and while they do end just as quickly in the same situation, that situation warrants an even better, more modern agreement, which should be the aim of the two warring countries.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Cookie, your points are well taken, but the letter of what I said got through to you, not the point.  My fault.

The point I was trying to make was that I'm not overlooking Zaitsev's point that there should be peace.  I don't know if there should be peace or not (sometimes, war is a necessary evil).  But, I know (and this was my mind set) that I'm not thinking about peace, or the Chechnyn side of things, while they are holding hostages.  And, in my opinion, we shouldn't (yet).  Two wrongs don't make a right, so yes, we should look at those facts, but not because they are holding a gun to so many heads.  I'd rather focus on the assholes holding hostages right in front of me, them being as wrong as you can get (no matter if the Russians are equally wrong or not).

As for the US not getting involved before 9/11, there are many reasons not to get involved (I just don't know which may apply), but I'm not going to talk about it until I read more.  This isn't a topic I'm up on, so any opinion I'd have would be pointless yet.

[alaric]

I also don't have enough info on the current situation in the Caucasus to offer much opinion. Cookie, could you post some places you get your info so we could research more into the topic? Thanks.

[cookie]

The point I was trying to make was that I'm not overlooking Zaitsev's point that there should be peace.  

Bucc, i never offensively addressed your post, i was actually referring to assassins, but hell, debate it fun so here goes:

i acknowledge the fact that peace is a hard thing to think about right now but when you have things like this stemming from the lack of it it sends a signal, it's a call  that tells us that we NEED to do something beyond just solving this individual problem.. Russia needs to address the root causes of this attack. However, I don't necessarily believe that peace talks should begin immediately as yes, lives are at risk, i merely meant that peace should ensue after this situation because obviously something is in need of remedy. If Russia succeeds in rescuing the hostages and whatnot, what is to say it won't just happen again somewhere else later? This is a larger issue than simply holding hostages and before people jump to conclusions i just thought i'd inform some people and yes bucc, i agree that at the moment the prima facie issue at hand is the hostage situation. I merely wished to put it into context to perhaps help people understand.

[Bondo]

Sin, I don't really see what would have been bad about letting the South go in the Civil War.  It is a Republican section of the US.  They should have their own country where they can avoid progression.  As regions go, the South is the poorest, the stupidest, and the least healthy (its proven so don't get uppity if you live there).