Romulus and PCS

[Jeb]

I noticed that after i've read many of roms posts, how he manages to work the words... athlon, windows , and XP. i have no problem with Pcs, infact i'm getting one for college. Rom, plz go a few posts without mentioning PCs. it would help me gain my sanity back as a wait the 67mins till i'm unbanned from GR

[SiGmA_X]

Dude, I am a PC person now. I still use the Mac sometimes (PS6) but I mainly use PC's.

About that PC for college, if you want to build it your self (I highly suggested it) I can give you some spec's on it. If you want a fully custom PC but you don?t do it your self (and you obviously want to pay more!), then check out iBuyPower.

BTW - When are you going to college?

EDIT By Romulus: And WinXP sucks.

[Jeb]

acually, i'm having my IT friend build me a nice little pc. i don't need much, mainly a Athlon 2ghz or whatever, and gfc 4, and so on. i just need it for programing classes

[SiGmA_X]

Oh... AMD's max out at 1.8GHz, but you don't want that! It doesn't OC well at all. Get a AMD 1.733GHz instead and OC it to 2GHz

I would recommend the following, for all around greatness:
AMD XP2000+ (1.66GHz)
EPoX 8K3A+
216MB DDR333 PC2100
60GB Seagate HDD
Antec 1030B
Liteon 40x CDRW
GeForce4Ti4400
Intel NIC

That's the package I would buy if I were you. If you want a price, just ask

[Ace]

acually, i'm having my IT friend build me a nice little pc. i don't need much, mainly a Athlon 2ghz or whatever, and gfc 4, and so on. i just need it for programing classes

Silly jeb, you don't need a PC for programming classes. Hell, all the PC users just log into the server to do their programming. You are better off with a Mac. Any real programmer will choose *nix over Windows any day of the week. Also, the latest version of GCC is coming with Jaguar, w00t! I've heard parts have been optimized for AltiVec, so that should be pretty cool when it's here.

[Jeb]

As far as my classes go, i'm gonna take C++ classes, i'm prety sure that what i learn in there won't be programing for macs. any ideas?

PS, i'm a huge noob at programing. i'm mildy familar with Java. can you explain those terms?

[Ace]

I'm guessing you are going to be a computer science major. If so, you will take more than just C++ probably, although it will be used in a large chunk of your studies. Try not to think of your programming as platform specific. Think about that you will be learning the languages and good programming style/techniques.

About what I said before, a compiler converts your source code. You write your source, then the compiler converts your source into a lower level code. After that, an assembler might make it into machine code to actually send the instructions to the computer. GCC is a popular compiler. When I said that the PC users log in to do their programming, they connect to a central server (at my school it's running Solaris I think) and all the compiling and such is done by the server, not their individual computer. Jaguar == 10.2 and AltiVec is the engine that makes G4's kick ass. That cover it all?

[Grifter]

Everything Ace just said is correct... but I'll repeat a few things just to make sure you understand...

Yes, languages are not platform dependant (for the most part).  You write your program in C++, Objective C, Pascal, whatever... then compile it.  They have compilers for all platforms.  Now, the C++ code you write to work on Windoze probably wont just compile for a Mac... you may have to tweek it a little (that's c++ for you).  On the other hand... when you get to your Java classes, Mac's are 100% J2EE complient under OS X.  And have great built in development tools.  The couple guys I have using Mac's at work don't log onto the server to write thier code.... they actually complie and test on their desktops (something that the PC users can't... because the Windoze JVM isn't pure.... fucking Microsoft).

Also, if you need to test your programs on Windoze... there's always VPC (virtual PC).  If you have a Mac, you can run 3 OS's at once..... something that no PC user can do (well).  PC users have to reboot into Linux or Windoze... their emulation sucks.  OS X is bsd, classic mac and you can use VPC to have any windoze or linux flavor added.... (or both)... all running at the same time.

[SiGmA_X]

Grifter - I know you have used Virtual Windows for the Mac. It's slow! It lags! You have to have the fastest Mac and then some to be able to keep up with some PC programs... And the video is software rendered (At least in V4)...

FarmerJeb - ?Get a PC with WinXP Pro and Linux (Mandrake). You can dual boot and have both running at the same time. All you do is install both on the same volume. And PC?s with Linux are just as good as a Mac with Unix for programming, and you will literally save thousands of dollars.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Hey rom, I'm getting a PC for gaming only purposes, Do you have any sugestions?

[SiGmA_X]

Hey rom, I'm getting a PC for gaming only purposes, Do you have any sugestions?

Yes.

Here is two lists of stuff. The difference is if you want to OC or not... OC'ing is addictive, but if you don't want to, I also (sort of...) understand.

OC'z:
AMD XP1800+ ($90)
EPoX 8K3A+ ($110)
256MB DDR333 ($70)
Seagate 60GB HDD ($80)
GeForce4Ti4400 ($250)
Antec 1040B ($79)
Liteon 40x CDRW ($75)
Intel NIC ($5)
Logitec Dual Optical Mouse ($40)
Logitec Internet Keyboard ($25)

Non-OC'z:
AMD XP2000+ ($140)
ABit KR7A ($87)
2x256MB DDR266 PC-2100 ($80)
Seagate 60GB HDD ($80)
GeForce4Ti4400 ($250)
Antec 1040B ($79)
Liteon 40x CDRW ($75)
Intel NIC ($5)
Logitec Dual Optical Mouse ($40)
Logitec Internet Keyboard ($25)

As you see, most of the stuff is the same. It's just the faster RAM (That allows you to OC it to a minimum of the multiplier*166, instead of multiplier*133) and the better mainboard. If you want to OC, you can get a lower processor, and still OC it higher I would get either the XP1800 or the XP1600 for OC'z as they both go VERY high!

You will want to buy the procs as OEM, and then get a good ThermalRight AX7 heatsync.

As a Macie who will be using a custom PC for the first time, it will seem VERY loud. There are a few things you can do to avoid this: Get all Panaflow fans ($4 per 80mm) or get watercooling. Also, make a stop at a local audio shop, and pick of some of that great padding to prevent vibrations. Vibrations cause most of the noise, actually...

If you need more help, AIM me or post here

[Jeb]

Thanks for the advice Ace...
Mb i'll convince my parents to buy me a shinny new 700mhz ibook

[SiGmA_X]

Yeah, think of that, running at a whole 700MHz! Wow... I rather like my 1.6GHz (Soon to be 2GHz:)) computer, and my friends 2.4GHz computer, and all the new P4's that go to 3.2GHz with only minor watercooling...

If I were you, get a cheap custom made PC and run Linux on it. Not WinXP, but Linux. The computer is better, the hardware is better, and with Linux, it's the best you could have!

[Grifter]

Ah, Romulus still believes that Mhz is all the battle...

First Rom, I don't know the last time you used VPC... but you are just flat out wrong about it being laggy...  I can put my 600mhz iBook running OS X and VPC (with win2000) right next to this nice little Dell Lattitude P3 600 notebook.  iBook has 640 megs of RAM, Dell has 512.  Running VPC, the iBook is every little bit as fast as the Dell... the only thing the Dell can do better is the games.  Running MS Office... running Quicken.... running Visio... running Rational Rose.... running ClearQuest..... (I can keep going with some more development apps if you want...)... my iBook is running these things at the same speed more or less (I'm not noticing any difference).  Games will matter with the DirectX controllers and such... but he's not talking about buying a game machine.  Oh, and my systems that run OS X run a hella lot faster then my PC's running Linux (Mandrake 8.1).  

As for saving "thousands"... not on a Windoze laptop adding on Linux over an iBook.... especially since the iBook doesn't cost that much.....

I'll put my mac's running OS X up against any PC's (running any OS... even Solaris) for programming... and I wont come away a loser.  I work with this crap every day.

Rom's just stuck in the world of "it's cool to overclock your machine" and "you have to build it yourself"....  First, I know lots of guys that have built thier own PC's... not one of them did it cheaper then just buying the thing from Dell or Gateway.  Most would have saved a bunch of money that way (who do you think gets those parts cheaper... you or Michael Dell??)  As for over clocking... it's over rated.  There have been lost of articles about the math errors that come out of overclocked chips (lol, there are articles about math errors in general with intel chips)...  The only people that actually thrive on over clocking are the PC gammers...  Sure, add cooling systems to keep your system from crashing... it still get's errors (sometimes it just moves that peskey little decimal point).  Over clocking usually works good for a little 10% bump....  chips are tested to a threshold... in a mac, for instance, you have 800's, 933's, and 1000's chips.  If a chip is tested and isn't stable at 1000, but was at 933... that chip is listed at a 933.  It could actually be good until 966 or 999... or maybe just to 934.  You just don't know...  To OC that chip past 1ghz is just stupid... (besides reading all about this, I've also overclocked a Blue and White G3 in the past... took it from 350mhz up to 600 before it then fry'd the motherboard (not the chip, but the board... chip was cooled ok... board couldn't take it).  After 400mhz, it was buggy as hell... after 500 it was only good for games (and would crash regularly).. everything after that was just an experiment...

Lesson of the day... don't over clock you chips unless it's a computer you can live without... and don't care if it makes a few errors in there....

[jn.blackhand]

"Rom's just stuck in the world of "it's cool to overclock your machine" and "you have to build it yourself"...."

Funny, I always thought Romulus was from the land of lying through your teeth.

[Grifter]

That must be right next to the territory of talking out your ass ('cause your head be up there).  Well, at least we know some of his neighbors....

[SiGmA_X]

Macie. It shows. Do you belong to any PC forums? If so, I'll bet that they know your a Macie, whether you told them, or not.

Grifter - I can build you a AMD that is faster then anything you can get from a OEM for far less. You name the specs that a OEM gives you, I'll name a price. VPC can't emulate the speed of any thing in games, because it lag's with its software (unless they changed it from V4) rendering. Which is laggy. I agree, PC laptops are very spendy, and not very good. I would take a TiBook or a iBook over most PC laptops. If I am buying, it will most likely be a iBook.

MHz Matters.

[Grifter]

MHz Matters.

mhz is only part of the bigger equation...

Look at it like this... a 1/4 inch straw with 100psi of pressure will not fill a swimmig pool faster then a 100 ince pipe with 0.25psi....  how big the pipelines are... the bus speed.. L2 and L3 cashe... RISC vs CISC... they all make a difference.  If you want a real metric.. try MIPS.  That is the true test of any processor configuration...  then combine it with the OS for a full picture.