the pledge of allegance, uncontutional?

[Bondo]

Grift were you saying my view on the pledge isn't meaningful seeing as pledging alligence would be the last thing I'd want to do, God or no God?  I suppose that is fair enough.  I personally don't think we should be forcing kids to say the pledge in any form, like Cossak said.  I think that is why where I'm at they stop after elementary school because once you are smart enough, one sees through shallow patriotism.

Then again, expatriates have had a lot to do with many of the changes in the US over time so I don't think that is a disqualifier.

[Jeb]

Well said gorf,
Religion started when groups of isolated peoples in prehistoric times, wanted answers to what was happening around them. Like  day and night, and the animals. Ancient indian tribes had different religions, and different belief systems, than say the egyptions. And when you try to say that GOD is right, why be so self centered in thinking that your religion is the right religion. So why should one groups belief be represented in our nations pledge of aligence, and our money? even though there have been countless other explainations of why us humans are here. What it all boiles down to, is that Christians are in outrage, over something that does violate the constitution, but for the reason that they are to close minded to think that many people have different beliefs than themselves. I don't see this as a stupid political correctness thing, i think it is a good start to eliminate the use of the christian god, and chirstian symbols in government.
jeb
ps. i went to catholic school since for 13 years, and i was a alterserver for 4 years, now i thank god i'm a athiest

[Brain]

Well said gorf,
Religion started when groups of isolated peoples in prehistoric times, wanted answers to what was happening around them. Like ?day and night, and the animals. Ancient indian tribes had different religions, and different belief systems, than say the egyptions. And when you try to say that GOD is right, why be so self centered in thinking that your religion is the right religion. So why should one groups belief be represented in our nations pledge of aligence, and our money? even though there have been countless other explainations of why us humans are here. What it all boiles down to, is that Christians are in outrage, over something that does violate the constitution, but for the reason that they are to close minded to think that many people have different beliefs than themselves. I don't see this as a stupid political correctness thing, i think it is a good start to eliminate the use of the christian god, and chirstian symbols in government.
jeb
ps. i went to catholic school since for 13 years, and i was a alterserver for 4 years, now i thank god i'm a athiest

*decides to poke the hornets nest some more*

how do you get that the christians are the bad guys in this situation, last time i checked thery werent the only monotheistic religion,  just off the top of my head,i know that jews, and muslems are monotheistic as well.  therefore wouldnt under god represent those religions as well?

[jn.loudnotes]

Brain - he was just referring to the Christian/Protestant majority in the country as they are the primary influencing religion.

And Grifter, you have seen hard evidence in people's testimonials of their own experiences. ?However, the best example I can give you is the hate mail directed at the atheist family that brought the suit. ?Is that not abuse?

And traditions aren't the important thing here. ?It's the underlying moral code they represent. ?If we lose or modify a tradition, we have not lost the beliefs it represents. ?Religion will not die if it is removed from government.

And perhaps one motivation for someone who chooses to be an expatriate is frustration at a nation they love, but cannot feel accepted in.

And btw farmerjeb - I love that line
"thank god I'm an atheist"

[TeeEfSix Goku]

Gorf,your a fool.I hope you go to hell for saying that
Just because your a jew doesnt mean christians arew wrong because you think they are.Read the bible,its true.Not to offend you or anything,but i mean cmon.What you said is racism with religion instead of religion.

[TeeEfSix Goku]

Racism*^

[Grifter]

Damn, I'm a long winded fuck.. I have to break this into two posts....

Ok, first, to those of you that brought up Russians, Korean's, Mexican's or any other nationality saying the Pledge in an American Public School... I say... Tough Cookies. ?Anyone in a position to go to an American school... paid for by the American Governments (Federal, State and Local)... with American taxes should not look at American patriotism with that kind of contempt. ?After all... say what you want for the state of public education here... but it's still some of the best PUBLIC education there is. ?The majority of the people in the world don't get it as good (or, don't you count the third world). ?

Now, for Loud's comments. ?Loud, I didnt' hear anybody hear say that the words "Under God" made them feel imposed upon, or put out... or brainwashed. ?I've heard some people say that they don't believe in the Pledge as a whole... especially people that aren't American (so I don't know why they actually care)... ?Like I said, the people I've talked to, of all religeons (or lack thereof), haven't had a problem with those words.

As for the hate mail... it wasn't because the kid was saying it in school or not saying it... it was because that ultra leftest father took it to court. ?And are you saying that all those other people don't have the right to express their opinions?? ?(Actually, anyone that sends hate mail to the young child is an asshole anyway... It isn't all hate mail either... I'm sure there are some educated opinions in there as well).

And traditions aren't the important thing here. ?It's the underlying moral code they represent. ?If we lose or modify a tradition, we have not lost the beliefs it represents. ?Religion will not die if it is removed from government.

You say that traditions aren't important here... I disagree completely. ?The traditions are important... They are there and structured to mean something, or hasn't anyone thought about that? ?You can't say open endedly that you can modify any tradition without losing it's lessons. ?And I am not talking about the health of religion, I could care less about the health of the CHURCH (I dispise organized religion... but that's just me... organized religion is worse to me then government is to Bondo). ?But what I do believe is that we live in the best country so far (yes, that's my opinion), that we are letting go to hell, as we worship the letter of the law, and not the spirit.

[Grifter]

Part II

And perhaps one motivation for someone who chooses to be an expatriate is frustration at a nation they love, but cannot feel accepted in.

Perhaps that could be one... but not Bondo... He's said flat out that he would rather be elsewhere...

One great thing about our Nation is the ability for us, the people, to make it better. ?What the ultra liberal need to understand is that neither they, nor the ultra conservative will ever really win. ?Us moderates are the majority, and that's what this country was built upon... the majority. ?If someone like Bondo really and truely believes that prostitution and weed should be legalized, why not take it to court? ?Try and have those laws declared unconstitutional.... after all, I could make a much better case for anti-drug and anti prostitution laws being an infringment to my persuit of happiness (and liberty). ?And both have been legal in this nation before... ?My personal opinion is that Bondo is just 19 and likes to think of himself that way... but since he's never really lived on his own under another flag, he doesn't really know. ?Hell, when I was 19, and they made me register for selective service... and the Gulf War was looming.... yeah, I thought that it was completely wrong of our government to draft men and not women... even wrote a paper on it in college (a court case made it all the way to the Supreme Court on it too). ?On how 85% of all military positions are considered "non combat"... and how women actually score better on many of the exams for these... not to get into "Equal Responsibility for Equal Rights" (name of the paper)... ?But now... at almost 30.... I could give a shit about selective service. ?In 10 years, Bondo is most likely going to be like all the rest of middle America... and he'll forget all about the expatriot he wants to be (since he can't actually be one while living at home with his parents in America...) ?Maybe, if he actually took off to Europe for a semester (like many of us did), or even more... go to live there for a while. ?

And before too many of you take offense at my thinking America is the best country to live in... ?I'll only take it seriously coming from adults... sorry, but if you don't pay taxes, and have actually spent good time working in other countries, you haven't actually experienced them. ?Mauti, Kilzo, Ronin and a few others, those are educated opinions.... Guys that live in Canada and are in high school don't even know.... sorry. ?I mean, I love Canada, but between the taxes, the economy and socialized medacine.... need I say more....

Are there a couple small countries in Europe where the cost of living is a bit lower, and the income from rich to poor is less then it is here.... yep. ?There are a few. ?But then there are other issues. ?Those are some of the things that make nations great... some... but when you mix everything that's important to me together.... USA comes out on top. ?And I've spent months working in England, Germany, Sao Palo and Mexico City... along with shorter trips to other places... so I've been there.. and seen what it's like.

[Bondo]

Grifter, I pay taxes.  And you should consider that my major is Geography and Environmental Science with an Energy Science minor.  I'm going to be liberal for my whole life.  Oddly enough there is this ultra liberal in the gamecube newsgroup who calls me a conservative pretending to be liberal but that is because he is an intolerant wench (odd for a liberal seeing as the definition of liberal is tolerant).  But my best friend who is moderately conservative would definately say I'm liberal.

But I digress.  As for living elsewhere Grifter, I only want to because I don't think the US will be changing and becoming a good nation anytime soon due to the political corruption.  The US is supposed to be by the people and for the people, but instead it is by the pockets and for the pockets.  It is all about money.  This nation's only chance is Ralph Nader.

[Grifter]

First Bondo, you actually count as an adult, being over 18, and I'm sure you do pay taxes (although, if they are the same taxes I paid at 19, they don't really count anymore.... you'll know what I mean when they take $40,000 from you in a year.  You wont know that pain for a while... but when that bite comes, you'll look back with a different perspective on it... that's all.

Second, you can complain about political corruption as much as you like, and probably be right 95% of the time.  That doesn't make you an expatriot.  But my question there is... where isn't there just as much political corruption??  Find that place, and let me know.  Because that's the rule, not the exception.  Power corrupts.  There are a few that stand above it... but again, the exception, not the rule.

Third, you are talking to a guy that turned down a very attractive job with Upjohn and Dow right out of my undergrad (my B.S. is in Chemistry and Physics, with minors in Sociology and Environmental Biology... yes, I've always been an overachiever).  I turned them both down and took a couple very shitty jobs because I was young and knew how much those two companies contributed to the ecological mess that is our water supply.  I am still a member of Greenpeace, and the MUCC... you don't have to be an ultra liberal to care about the environment....  if you ever take the test in a pol-sci class (closer to 100 = liberal, closer to 0 = Conservative) I actually scored a 50 on it the first time... and I usually end up in the low to mid 50's.  Even now, it hasn't changed.  What's changed is that I've learned more about the world.  If I really wanted to work for a company that didn't polute at all... I'd never work... If you don't compromise your morals, you'll never survive.  Because the world doesn't see things the same way as you (or me, or just about anybody).  That's a truth that is global, not national.  So you learn to pick your fights.  Which is why I think you will never really become an expatriot... when you learn that there really isn't a uetopia (for yourself) and that here, you can make a small difference, you'll see things differently.  That's all.

[+-KoS-+ Gorf]

Just because your a jew doesnt mean christians arew wrong because you think they are.

what was my last post about? ? i'm ATHIEST. ?i never said ANYTHING about christians. ?what the fuck are you talking about u moron

please read your moronic statements before posting goku

[TeeEfSix Goku]

I am jewish and have had my barmitzvah

Thats what you put.And by saying there is no god and its a load of bs that is insulting a christian and others that believe in god.So yes,you were saying stuff about christianity.

[theN00b]

I have lived in Russia. Even though I am only 19 I consider myself  very educated about the world. (I am a history and geography buff) Anyhow living in Russia, especially during the breakup was very hard. As a kid it was hard. I go to America and life is so very nice. But what I do not like about this country is social and political. Social problems are very hard to fix. Many Americans (keep in mind I am in the Texas) are overly patriotic and are ignorant about places outside their own country and they tend to sacrfice too much for the sake of political correctness. History has proven that this is a dangerous combination. This combination was present during the 1933 elections in Germany. Look what that did. That is the main problem of this country. Politically we have many rights, but many live under a mental dictatorship or social dictatorship.

[Brain]

ok, it's official we have just broke the record for word count in a thread
actually this id just an educated guess, and i'm trying to lighten up a very dire mood. besides once grifter started posting all oppurtunities for me to post have been closed. damn over achieving, purple posting long winded bastard
besides, since i'm only 19, and havent been abroad, i aperently dont meet  grifters requirements to be acnoleged(i know it's spelled wrong)
it's nice to have your own thread ripped out of your hands, thanks guys

[jn.loudnotes]

Brain there is nothing preventing you from taking part in the intelligent debate you helped to foster.

Grifter, picking your battles is important.  But there is a time when you're young and have yet to become disillusioned completely with the world when you can believe that maybe your ideas will take root somewhere.  Maybe if you make a stand for everything that is important to you, later you will know better what is truly essential.

Do not disregard our arguments out of hand because we are younger and idealistic.  Do not throw away them because we are arguing small points that seem minor in your worldly context.  

However, I will thank you for providing a forum of debate, for youngsters to try their ideas on the world.  For every generation faces foils from those older, who hold the current reins of power.  And thank you for teaching us that now, so that one day perhaps we can argue these same ideas and actually achieve progress.

Is it even too late for you?

[Bondo]

Brain you forum noob, go back to about page 18 and find the threads about the terrorist attack. ?There is one there that will never be passed as the wordiest thread.

Here is the link to it actually http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~damnr6/YaBB/YaBB.pl?board=GR&action=display&num=1001120423

In addition to being the wordiest or most words per post.  I think it may actually be longest thread.

[Brain]

jesus christ, even when i make a joke i'm not safe from being refuted and humiliated...
have ever made even ONE argument that ANY of you have said' hey, that's a good point?' or is it just simply 'oh, yea right, brain is posting again', and you basically discount everything i say instantly?

dear god has it been a bad day...

oh and thanks loud, i appreciate that someone realizes that even though we dont have the same amount of worldly knoledge, it doesnt neccessairly make our points any less valid than that of a 40 yearold who has world wide experience.

[Jeb]

Name three people that will be hurt if "under god" is taken outa the pledge .
i mean alot of people object to the themes of god in our government, why not just get rid of them. Religion is person, and shouldn't have to be dealt onto everyone who wants to say the pledge of aligence. it won't really matter if its gone. But then again, coming from a person who thinks god is a load of BS, i might be wrong.
Jeb
Pray on your own time, and don't waste mine (cause ?we all know i spend my time playing RS )

Oh, and a side note...
I typed "god" into google and came up with 34,900,000 hits
I typed "anal" into google and came up with 14,400,000 hits, almost half
i typed "sex" into google and came up with ?86,600,000, twice as much.
what do you value more?

[Brain]

the guy who brought the lawsuit, and i'll let you pick any 2 members of the court of apeals
i would guess that they would most like get herniated discs and multiple of papercuts from the massive amounts of hate mail

[Grifter]

Grifter, picking your battles is important. ?But there is a time when you're young and have yet to become disillusioned completely with the world when you can believe that maybe your ideas will take root somewhere. ?Maybe if you make a stand for everything that is important to you, later you will know better what is truly essential.

That was exactly my point Loud.  That Bondo is in that state in regards to his expatriotism.  That I was there 10 years ago, so can relate...  I'm not bashing him for making that stand, just stating that I think he'll grow out of it, mostly because it's based in his disillusion, not in experience.

Do not disregard our arguments out of hand because we are younger and idealistic. ?Do not throw away them because we are arguing small points that seem minor in your worldly context. ?

If I distegarded your arguments out of hand, I wouldn't bother to debate with you at all.  You are taking that a bit out of context (which is understandable with my long winded posts).  What I wont accept is an argument on Canada or Australlia or Brazil or Whosville is a better place to live from anyone that hasn't actually experienced living and working in those other countries... Somone that can form some context around it...  If you are a high school student, that has only ever lived in America... what makes you think you really know what it's like to live in England?  Because you talk to other high school kids that live there?  What are taxes, or health care, or the price of a cheese burger ($17 USD once to get a shitty cheese burger over there... but the fish and chips are good, and cheap)....  you get my point.  I'm not talking about all arguments... but a specific one, that most people here (and there are exceptions) don't have the experience to even look for.  Sure, Austria may be a great place to grow up compared to the US when you are 14... but wait, would you have the same standard of living??  Would your parents have jobs (what's unemployment there??)... again, you get my point.

For every generation faces foils from those older, who hold the current reins of power. ?And thank you for teaching us that now, so that one day perhaps we can argue these same ideas and actually achieve progress.

Is it even too late for you?

Loud, this sounds like you trying to be an ass.... I still pick my fights and fight the good fight.  I still participate in the causes that are important to me.  Too bad you missed that point earlier.  Again, I'm not bashing the young for lack of experience... nor did I say that your opinion on the issues didn't have some merrit.... what I said was specific towards Bondo's expatriotism... and that he wasn't really one in my OPINION, because of the reasons I gave.  If you chose to read that as a general 'shut the hell up because you don't know what you are talking about' then you are wrong, and then maybe you should go back and read it a bit more....

Now Cossack has lived in Russia... and with all it's problems, he still seems to love it.  Good for him.  I'm not bashing Russia, or any other country.  If he likes Russia better then the US, then he should be there.  If he likes the US more but still loves Russia, that's fine too, he should be here and still take pride in his past.  

But anyone that bashes the USA as a place to live (as a couple Canadian kids did a while back) while the only real justification is what they see on TV and maybe a vacation... doesn't know what the hell they are talking about.  

Oh, and Cossack, there were many other factors going on in late 1930's Germany... like trying to dig out of the worst of the depression (it was much worse in Germany then it was anywhere else in the world... the Treaty of Versi (someone get the spelling on that for me) screwed over the Germans.  Germany was the center of the Great Depression.  The Nazi Party pretty much pulled them out of it, and using the tools of hate and propoganda (along with actually a great engineering and industrial tradition) built it back up to a world power (with a lot of turning a blind eye by the rest of the world).  So I don't agree that this is the same kind of situation... America wasn't just carved up and given to other nations (like what happened post WWI)... and we aren't looking for expansion.... otherwise, we would have taken over Mexico and Central America long ago...