This one is for |AK|

[Grifter]

I was going to stay out of this... but I have to just rope in some of you....

Rebel's comment was based upon SKILL, not how often you CB...

Which is still one thing that the BL doesn't base things upon Bondo... if I CB 5 times as much as you do... and win about half of them, I can still have more points then you at the end, even if you win all yours.... ?So while I agree that the ladder is working better, and it is the truest test.. it wasn't what this thread was about. ?It was about skill... not how often someone CB's. ?So OOA can have skill and not even be on the ladder.

People have to understand that Bondo doesn't play RS... so he has no reference to a players skill except for the BL.

[cookie2]

sorry for being obscure  
i mean clans are placed on certain levels due to the amount of points they have and clans can only CB those in their point level therefore making it harder to get to the top just by CBing beginners. But i haven't got it all worked out yet, thats just a basic idea. I haven't put much thought into it yet as to how it might work. I just think it would be cool cause then clans wouldnt get a free ride to the top off of noobs.

[TeeEfSix Goku]

Well,ak just stole 3rd from us.......even tho,im suprised we didnt even make the cut for your list reb.

[Mr. Lothario]

    Maybe for the first part of each season, the ladder could be points only, to allow shuffling and an initial ladder. At some predetermined date, the ladder freezes and for the remainder of the season, clans may only challenge the clan immediately above them in the ranking. If the challenger wins, the clans switch spots. The defeated clan may not challenge the winner for some length of time (a few days or so).

    Problems with this system include:
     - lack of spontaneity in CBs.
     - inability to make quick moves by challenging high-ranking clans.
    Both of those problems could be addressed by adding the ability to challenge a higher-ranking clan, up to a certain number of spots above you. Say 3, for the sake of argument. Some penalty for losing such a challenge would have to be worked out. If you lose a normal challenge, there's no penalty, so perhaps losing a multi-rank challenge would cause your clan to move down the ladder a spot or two (depending on how many ranks above you you were challenging).

    No doubt there are other problems that did not occur to me. Anyhow, just a little thought experiment for you guys.

[Bondo]

Grifter, there are penalties for losing so no a clan can't just CB a lot and lose half.  They'd be losing as much as they gain.  Also Lothario, even if the worst team beats the best team they only gain 40 points which won't make that big of a change.

Grifter, I know what I said may eliminate some skillful players and rank them lower, but that is their choice for not being active at all.  Unless someone is able to CB weekly than I call them too inactive to be the best.  In R6, by the ladder I guess you would say that DAMN is the best (based on the last ladder as no one has CBed this time) but you could also argue that SiX is a better clan (and I might as well) but they aren't on the ladder and can't prove that.  But SiX has the excuse of not being on the ladder, OoA doesn't...they are on the ladder and so if they were the best they'd be playing and beating people, not sitting inactive.

[Grifter]

Bondo, you were perfectly clear.... just wrong.

The question of which clan has the most skill can be answered by other means if you actually played the game.  You don't.  End of conversation.  You gave your opinion that the ladder is what you hold to.  Fine.

To me and many others, that isn't the ONLY measure of skill... just one.  A clan that doesn't CB often can be the most skilled in GR... skill and success are two different things.

[Bondo]

How about if I say that a big part of skill is to be able to perform in a tense competitive environment.  Now success on the ladder is directly related to skill.

[Typhy]

Personaly, I think that while you can still have a lot of skill, and not win the ladder, I think that to be considered one of the best clans, you have to have won the ladder, KoS has won it, AK has won it, SECT is new, however built mostly off of SWAT players, I think that part of being a top clan is to be able to win the ladder, for this reason, I think that while OoA might be a very good and skilled clan, they can't be considered one of the best clans until they at least compete for the spot in the ladder. Just my opinion.

-Typhy

[Grifter]

How about if I say that a big part of skill is to be able to perform in a tense competitive environment. ?Now success on the ladder is directly related to skill.

Ok, I'll try this again for you Bondo... here's why the Ladder isn't a great test of skill....

If Clan X CB's 5 times, beating all the top 5 clans, and never loosing... they are still at a max of 200 points.  The clans that are in the Top 5 have all CB'd over 20 times and all have won more then half (remember, loosing to a better ranked clan doesn't cost you as many points as you can earn).

So, since Clan X has beaten all the other top clans, but hasn't CB'd very often they ended up with a total points of 160.  The other clans all CB'd often and ended up with more points.  Does that mean Clan X was less SKILLED (I think not, they performed under pressure and always won... they just didn't get together enough).

Hope you see my point.  They didn't win the battle league, but can still have plenty of skill.

The battle league can't be a true test of skill unless it's structured with a type of schedule... meaning that everyone CB's everyone the same amount of times... everyone then has the same number of CB's played....  That then would make the ladder more reflective of skill and not as much frequency.

[*NADS Capt. Anarchy]

kind alike what the 7 or 8 tourneys that never happened were gonna do.

[†FiRE Infection]

kind alike what the 7 or 8 tourneys that never happened were gonna do.

Well Anarchy the *DAMN Summer Tournament is happening right now.  Maybe you should have joined it?

The battle league can't be a true test of skill unless it's structured with a type of schedule... meaning that everyone CB's everyone the same amount of times... everyone then has the same number of CB's played.... ?That then would make the ladder more reflective of skill and not as much frequency.

Haven't we considered this before Grifter? ?You, Bondo, I and a couple others seem to be the only people who like it.

[Bondo]

Yes, but if they played those 5 CB there would be something to compare to, OoA hasn't played any so they don't have anything competitive to compare with.

[Grifter]

Well Bondo, you got half my pont... so far so good... now we'll hit the other half.

I'm going to give you a couple extreeme examples.

So you are saying that if you were playing a game of pickup hoops at the park, and these guys in red, white and blue uniforms that never play in any league came out there and cleand up the courts... you still wouldn't recognize the skill behind the Harlem Globetrotters?  They've never won any titles in any leagues... but all it takes is seeing them in action to know that they have skills.

Like I said... the BL is all you have got, because you don't play the game.  But the guys that actually play the game can recognize skills just fine without looking at a box score.  I'd know that KoS is one of the most skilled clans, even if they hadn't joined the BL...  not joining it wouldn't make them less skilled at all... it would just make them below the radar of those that only read the paper for their sports opinions.

What people have to base a clans skill upon is how they play together in GR... when they play with them and against them.  

[oso]

late again here, but grifter just give up trying to change bondo's thoughts, he is closed minded most of the time so really no point.

[Bondo]

Well Oso, I haven't seen Grifter changing his stance, so maybe he's close minded, and I have changed some, like saying it isn't directly based on the ladder rankings, but that having that competition is a necessary factor.  Yet he just wants to stand by thinking that one can be the most skilled without any competitive playing, just playing in fun games.

[Grifter]

Because you can have skill without actually having to compete.  The ladder is just ONE way to measure skill... and to me, not a very good one at that.

[AK_Rap1d]

Well, I'll tell you this much, going in games where there's plenty of new players just starting out mixed with old players, and owning them,  is just half way to being a great player.  It shows they can play and are not noobs.  What makes a great player is one that does the same thing under pressure in a Competitive Environment such as *DAMN BL where your name rides on the line unlike regular games.  That has a totally different environment than one under pressure CB'ing for your clan for a legit tournament.  Proving yourself in the tournament and being able to beat established players that have made the next move to make a clan, proves by far who the better players are.  Being that Grifter dislikes me personally so much and knowing I am the Leader of |?K|, it is nearly impossible for him to ever credit the fact that the better clans are always at top holding down shop.  And that's simply because our clan is up there.  Competitive Environment is where you prove yourself and your clan.  Regular games are just that, Regular games.  Thanks for your time and Look forward to CB'ing some good competition like SECT soon.  It'll only make the challenge better

I love playing RS, but the only way it is really fun, is when a good challenge comes along and you battle it out in exciting games that go down to the wire.  That's what makes RS fun and that's why CB'ing is fun and the best way to separate the dogs from the cats.

[Typhy]

Good points Rapid

[Bondo]

OMG, Rapid made a logical well written post.

What is the date?
*writes July 8th 2002*

[†FiRE Infection]

?Being that Grifter dislikes me personally so much and knowing I am the Leader of |?K|, it is nearly impossible for him to ever credit the fact that the better clans are always at top holding down shop. ?And that's simply because our clan is up there.

Is this true Grifter?  Would you be more happy if Fire was number 1