Protesting guest choosing map & color

[P.D.A_Konig]

Has anybody been playing clans without honor who only ask for blue airport when they get to your server? Well I have and I think loopholes like this should be closed. Anybody who plays R6 knows that gold has very little chance on Airport. When other clans use this to win their cb's I find them spineless and, though it is completely allowable by the rules, don't think it's right and certainly doesn't belong in the BL. I am therefore testing the waters here to see if we could change the BL rules to allow host to choose the color (I don't know the deal with RS, but definately for R6), so dumb things like this don't slip through. On most maps the color doesn't matter too especially much, there are just a few maps that have total balance shifts depending on who is playing which side and if one team is allowed to choose both, then this defeats any attempt at fairness during a a game.

This is my reasoning, feel free to question my ideas or support them.

K?nig

Laudatur ab his, culpatur ab illis. - Horace

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

You still have the same odds of winning as they do because you could choose blue airport when you are the guest.

For RS, the map would be blue Warehouse District or blue 747.

[Bondo]

When I was young we won by skill, not by map or team color, it didn't matter if we were on gold for haci or air, we still would win if we were better.  Especially in this case if we had host.  The rule is there for a purpose (to give the guest the location advantage to make up for host ad of other team) and it is there to stay.

[P.D.A_Konig]

Well thanks assassin, but the whole point is that I don't want the BL to turn into a game where the guest is always choosing blue airport to win. It defeats any fairness in a battle, as well as the whole point of comparing skills.

The logo of BL has the words Honor and Skills, I take it these are some sort of chief virtues. However neither are required in camping, when someone can just sit in a single spot and pick people off as they come out a door (and as there are only 2 doors this only takes 2 players to pull off). This says to me that something is wrong.

K?nig

Laudatur ab his, culpatur ab illis. - Horace

[AK_Rap1d]

Very interesting point Konig. ?I have always heard people claim things like "Blue has Advantage over Gold" and vice versa, and always thought if it would be a good idea to maybe have restricted CB maps to avoid this issue. ?Therefore there would be a list of maps that are allowed to be played in CB so you wouldn't run into such problems. ?Maps like CSL and Training maze are equally fair for both teams in RS. ?CSL is also for R6 so I see a Universal map there. ?Maybe we can get all our great minds together and come up with a fair list of maps to be allowed for CB:D ?That would be a good Motion8)

[PsYcO aSsAsSiN]

except in R6, you can cheat on CSL...*cough* blue door *cough*

[P.D.A_Konig]

Bondo, the skills you hold so dear are totally absent in a airport game against gold, this is my point (see my other posts for a more thorough explaination of the matter). We did win 2 of the 5 games on airport (in spite of the fact that we were outnumbered 3 to 2), I am not just another whining sore loser, I'm just suggesting that the rules be changed to better allow for a true contest of skill.

K?nig

Laudatur ab his, culpatur ab illis. - Horace

[AK_Rap1d]

Konig, how do you feel about my suggestion???

If there's a cheat in R6 CSL map like assassin commented on, that would qualify that map to be excluded from the list8)

[Bondo]

Sorry, but skill will overcome any starting spot, if people camp outside then camp inside, just find a way. ?And anyway, gold is only disadvantaged when they start inside. ?I never thought I was being cheated when I started gold because I could either get outside fast enough or be careful when leaving and actually kill the person watching the door. ?And I hope that 3v2 wasn't during a CB as CBs demand even teams and stuff. ?Sorry, but we will not be restricting color or map selection in the rules.

Oh and Rapid about R6 CSL, yes there is a bug so that you can't be shot when in the blue doorway, but we don't ban it for that, it just isn't allowed for people to stand behind it.  If they do it is cheating and they lose the game.

[P.D.A_Konig]

Sounds like a good idea Rapid. As for maps w/ cheats like CSL which are only small mistakes, not like a start point which skews the entire game, we could do something like disqualifying the team for that one game and giving them a loss (like what bondo says is already in place). However maps like airport which have bad start points I would readily agree to eliminating. I can't think of many other maps that are totally screwed by a start point, at least for R6, you must excuse my ignorance of RS as I have never played it before.

Bondo, we did adapt and do things like starting to camp on the inside, and we took advantage of the start at the T and thrashed our opponents whenever we started there, however, you simply can't beat somebody prefiring the doors on the hangar.

K?nig

[Night Hawk]

Alls i know is that i agree with rapid on elimiating such maps that are so cheap to play. Also, Lets say the first guest chooses airport and wins all those and then u switch host and you do the same. i dont call that a cb to test skills between 2 clans.  I think thats just gay.

i say we just take rapids idea!!

[Bondo]

Sounds like a good idea Rapid. As for maps w/ cheats like CSL which are only small mistakes, not like a start point which skews the entire game, we could do something like disqualifying the team for that one game and giving them a loss (like what bondo says is already in place). However maps like airport which have bad start points I would readily agree to eliminating. I can't think of many other maps that are totally screwed by a start point, at least for R6, you must excuse my ignorance of RS as I have never played it before.

Bondo, we did adapt and do things like starting to camp on the inside, and we took advantage of the start at the T and thrashed our opponents whenever we started there, however, you simply can't beat somebody prefiring the doors on the hangar.

K?nig

If you want to agree not to count the games in which there is a bad starting spot then go ahead, but I'm not making it a rule.  And I have many times beaten someone prefiring the doors on the hangar.  And I will more times.  They can't keep a steady stream going so you can peek out and locate them, duck back in and not predictably stick out prefiring for a second before ducking back in.  Oh, and gold haci and blue amazon mansion IIRC are also bad SP, but both can be overcome.

[Grifter]

I don't know in R6 so much, but in RS I side right with Bondo on this one.

If you tried to restrict the maps to the ones where there is no advantage over start... hmmm... that leaves CSL, Training Maze, Chemical Compound.....   and Bunkers...  Every other map can be argued that there is an advantage of some starts over the other (Chalet for example.. some starts favor blue, some gold).  There was only one time I can remember this rule bitting us in the ass in almost 30 CB's.... that was in the second half, when we switched to our server... not only did the map choice work to their advantage... but they put us in the dayglow white uniforms....  But, if that's the way they wanted it... so be it.  Being able to beat that kind of stuff is what seperates the best clans from the rest.  And, like I said, I've only even heard of someone being really cheap a couple times in RS CB's.  Most clans aren't win at any cost.

[Bondo]

Well, that is one good thing about R6, you aren't going to get cheap uni colors as there isn't a choice.  And usually the unis are fairly same and not an issue.  About start points, sure there are a few maps where one side has a decent advantage over the other, but not insurmountable.  Also, since the side that would be disadvantaged by map would be the one with host advantage, they should be able to overcome.

[NiXon / ViRuS]

I agree with bondo and Griffter, i played R6 long enough to know ok blue has the advantage on Air but I have beaten alot of teams when i was Gold dont forget its your host and camping is not looked up upon but its allowed dont forget that   and you just cant ban a map cause the other team has the advantage you got the host and on R6 the host really hosts ya not like in RS so much  

[[[EUR]] HoloGram]

To come to a point the team vs PDA was playing was EUR! As u all know AIR is a speciality of EUR on evry SP so i dont matter. U also know EUR as fair players.

And it was a quite fair game untill PDA began to say oh much lag here on our host. Although they were not that bad, the standing was 2-3 after playing KH2D .

Then we prefered taking AIR on blue not because of the blue start advantage - for me it not so important- we did it only b/c K?nig started to bitch arround so it only a reaction on his action!

Other thing is that Gold can also win on AIR - i dont know how many guys of u know the clan *ANGELs*, but they prefered SP gold on AIR and RULED this map. so its on a matter of skill and tactics.

Only one thing i have to protest is that PDA camped the whole time in the gold hangar when playing AIR. that is what is not the way to play on a CB CAMPING whole the time.
They camped and lost in a close game. I can remember only one try on PDA to comeput and try to pick out our players.

The point is that PDA forgot to use this posibilities of choosing color and map so they felt played unfair. thats all.

One thig to "OUTNUMMBERED":

1) we said that we have to even up teams but PDA didnt want! thats a fact. SO it is nomore an argument Konig! I told mase and u that we should even up teams PDA and esp Mase did not want. And After the CB started 4 vs 4 it ended with 4 vs 2 b/c PDA members left the CB without any excuse! so where is the fairness? We did all to make the CB fair, but when did not want to even up that they dont want.

[[[EUR]] HoloGram]

We will not count this CB for the Ladder. i would prefer to make a new one against PDA! Thats fair!

[OLd Z]

Well I was there  .. to and all i want to say is :
1 pda clan was so nasty they  where .. pushy
  star it start it  ready ready common common
   ( i was askin them whut map whut color )
    but no  4000 time start it common go go
      To lagyy .... etc    ( i was host )  
2  when we come on their host  we where calm
    askin for our right to  pick up a color map
    nobady was bitching with lag and after 15 minits
   we agree about that / but they start again  to        
    argue  and etc .. and then START Camping in
   a hangar ..........   shame
3     I do not think that we shud change rules couse 1
 clan was unprepered for clan battle and that rule is
 is like to eaven up teams .. if host hawe advantage
 of pibg then gest can chouze a map collor and etc ..
 it is fair play

                         EUR  Old z       (Playin R6 2 years)

[<<EUR>> Stevie]

I played CB?s for a long time now, and reason to CB is to have more fun and exitement in gaming.
Never befor I heard such whining and complaining as I did when we CB against PDA (this clan dont even know the CB rules).
If this kuning dont understand that guest team has to choose map and color to even out hostadvantage....well its hes problems....I dont give a fuck.
I remember the time when Damn, Spaz, Seals, Angels and others played all night long without complaining and we all knew that skillfull players got killed less then others even hosting or not.
I like CB?s and any nice fair clan is welcome to beat the shit out of EUR Clan ( if they can manage it) as long as we have fun.
I also want to thank DAMN for a good job with the site and I wish I saw more of u guys and the rest of the old school players on GR again.

Greetings

Stevie

[eur.reddust]

the wish to ban certain maps during a cb is maybe more a problem of less skilled players.

what i see is: both parties can talk about their thoughts and wishes at any time before the CB starts. so they could both come to the decision to ban maps or to abort a game when certain start points are generated. each CB is an individual match by two teams with as many rules supplements as they want. but is it really useful to argue about rules supplements two long hours before your CB? i say: if you do this you will argue again two hours after the match.

i think there is a way between german style (all zet iss not eksactly deefined is absolootly furbitten!) and italian style (red trafic lait meens drrive, eh?) that is called common sense. and that means that the fast way to avoid misunderstandings is to say (example): "we wanna CB, exclude map xy, and camping means a win for the opponent. you agree or not? if not, what is your suggestion?"

but you need some discipline for that. and some age, i think. when i see those many hotshots romping in the shooting gallery (gameranger) messing around with "hey i'm 12" then it really amuses me. they are generally boys/men and all know (except men) what the greatest males' problem is, especially young males: they want to shoot and show their ****, but not to talk. "because only looser talk"...

and when i look back to that match (i cannot say that it was a real CB) against PDA, there was another point that they didn't have: time.
one came into our game and challenged us. but when we met outside every second sentence was "start the game because K?nig has to go in 30". and later on, during the match, they tried to force Old Z to run the game while the odds were 2 PDA vs. 4 EUR. what a hustle! and now it sounds like "we couldn't win because the odds were against us". 2 PDAs just disappeared.
it is a childish behaviour. but ok, children are allowed to play in the gameranger and they have to learn some things. and we have to learn some things, too.

i don't blame anyone for not knowing necessary rules or something like that. but i expect the common netiquette and a certain style of dealing with each other. in this case EUR better had to close the match before the end. but, unfortunately, then we would have lost by the BL rules.

and read this:
- the "gold on airport myth": i claim 98% for me to get out the hangar alive (and i don't feel overskilled in R6).
- the "guardhouse on chalet myth": you're definitly not trapped there
- some (north) german words: there is no bad weather, just wrong clothing

didn't get it? so, as Bondo said before: it is skill. always.

see you
Red Dust