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Author Topic: Clan rosters  (Read 17774 times)
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*DAMN Mauti
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« on: June 08, 2006, 08:47:23 am »

One thing that has been discussed for years is a clan size limit.

The *DBL 2.0 will take a new approach to limit the clan size without shrinking your clan.

Your clan can be as big as you want, and single players can be even in more than one clan at a time, because in the *DBL 2.0 each clan has to form a team for each ladder, with a limited player size.

So e.g. clan A has 20 members and participates in a CQB and Adv ladder. For season z they have to form a team CQB with 4 members and a team ADV with 8 players. The rest can form new clans with CQB and ADV teams. So everyone gets to play more.

Players can be in more teams, but not in two teams that play for the same ladder. However since you can be in more than two clans they can create their own clan just for the ladder they want to play.

To sum up: each clan has to create a team for each ladder that plays together. The player number of these teams arelimited to ensure that every clan has the same player resources. If you have more clanmembers that would like to compete in one ladder, or may have to proove that they are good enough for your season team, can  create their own clan with their own team that plays in that ladder.

So contrary to the *DBL 1.0 where you had a huge pool of players available, you will be forced to manage your clan more than before. Take a look which members play often together, and which don't, and decide which team should play for your clan.

If you take a look at the matchlist clans usually play with the same players and many players never get a chance to cb. Now they can, but they still can stay in your clan and may play in other ladders.
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« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2006, 11:47:23 am »

I don't understand the point of this rule, don't most clans use the same 4-6 guys for CB's anyway?  Look at all the clans signed up, what clan has used more than 8 different guys for a single ladder?  Whenever I CB [a], [E], Po, [Tribe], [E]......its always the same 4-6 guys in the CB as is the same for my clan.  And what clan with more than 8 players is gona have a player want to leave their own clan and go off and start a new team with a bunch of noobs?  We have to go out now and tell the 9th, 10th.... man on our clan rosters "Sorry but you can't play for us anymore thus defeating the purpose of you being in our clan."

I think the *DBL should make the regular season more interesting and fun, have 2 Team ladders for Ghr.  Ghr ADV [A] and Ghr ADV it would be more like 2 different divisions that can still CB each other, clans can then pick a different team of [4-5] players to play on each division.  The Ghr Superfinals are than played between the top clan of the [A] ladder and the top clan of the ladder.  There would be no 4 clan superfinals weekend anymore.  You have the 2 regular season winners of [A] and face off for the league title, thus making the regular season more important because you must win your division to be in the *DBL Finals. 
And then to make it more interesting and fun, if your clan wins the ladder during the season you can merge with your [A] team that didn't win on the other ladder for the Super Finals CB.  It's a team based system where you have 1 clan with 2 teams trying to win one of the divisions.   Larger clans then will not be forced to cut players and not use them.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2006, 12:13:05 pm by PUNiSHER™ » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2006, 12:39:37 pm »

You exactly name the reason for this rule of having rosters for a ladder:

"its always the same 4-6 guys in the CB as is the same for my clan"

Nevertheless are there clans that have a lot of players, and the other players don't play at all, or simple are not allowed to play. Now these players know that they won't be able to play for this ladder and can form a team on their own under their own tag.

The 8 man for GhR Advanced was just an example. The real numbers aren't decided yet. But it will be close to typical game size + 1,2 player. Many PC ladders have a 4vs4 ladder and you can only have a roster of 4 members.

The purpose is to force you not to accumulate players of player that will never be used, instead you have to form teams that play. The 9th and 10th player in your clan doesn't get to play at all as it is now. So why not be honest and tell him he won't play for this clan at this ladder. May he will be used for another ladder, but if he want to play in this particular ladder, he should look out for other people and form a team.

Further having teams for ladders instead of one clan that plays on certain ladders, makes it easier to allow players being in more clans that play different games. Right now you have to create another account if you want to be play GhR for clan A and RvS for clan B.
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« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2006, 07:01:42 pm »

ITS UN FAIR

we have like 18 players cause we like to be together not mainly for cbs and  cause some guys can CB only during there holidays so we will make them cb

some can cb always

in ur system the gyus that can cb during some days a year wont be abble to cb

plus ur system is gona make ranks inside clans (best players in team A rooster A)and then creat tentions its not very bright
in our clan there is no rank, there is not even a leader, we all vote mainly almost all decisions ,so only having to set many teams gives me cramps

ok will see
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« Reply #4 on: June 08, 2006, 07:13:01 pm »

I just can't see the [E] clan and [Tribe] cutting their clan roster down to 8 guys and the rest of their players going off and starting a new clan. 
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« Reply #5 on: June 08, 2006, 08:30:46 pm »

Quote
I just can't see the [E] clan and [Tribe] cutting their clan roster down to 8 guys and the rest of their players going off and starting a new clan.

that dosn't have to happen, think of it like this:  [GB] clan have loads and loads of players. Some play a lot some play less. they all want to be able to play though. the most active 8 or perhaps the 'first 8' register on the ladder as [GB-1] team  and another 8 of the clan guys register as [GB-2] team... same clan, two different teams, twice the chance of your clan taking a top rank with one of its teams...

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« Reply #6 on: June 08, 2006, 08:54:57 pm »

rgr Bfg it could be good but it will creat tentions and also it will push some players not to CB at all anymore

it will also make some players switch there log in to play cause some guys from the GB1 is not there
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« Reply #7 on: June 08, 2006, 09:05:45 pm »

rgr ghost, well this is after all a dev blog, im sure things will get tweaked along the way, and i think its more than possible that mauti will make sure that players cannot make multiple accounts as you've described.
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« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2006, 12:52:57 am »

I really think in the long run this reform is necessary. The player shortage is killing the community. Several things that need to be considered are as follow:

Z-1 vs Z-2
The situation where "Z" has multiple entries on the same ladder in a head to head situation. Has it been considered that one may simply "toss" a few games in order to boost the higher of their teams near the end. The real question remains as to how this can be done. The thing would have to become a "judgement" call; after all there would be no way to regulate it.

Suggested Solution
A) Stricter limitation on "intraclan" battles. Perhaps limit the clans to 3 clan battles per season, and ban clan battles between them in the last few weeks.
B) Completely ban them
C) Pure admin decision on a per case level.



I really don't see how making mega clans in the old system helps the problem. At least with this new system we can compromise between limiting the clans, whilst increasing the number of active teams. Probably this is the best idea to appear yet for the problem.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 02:01:15 am by Mysterio » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2006, 01:48:39 am »

You should also make it so that, within each clan, you can move players from one team to another team throughout the season.
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« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2006, 09:29:49 am »

First yes this is only a dev blog, and not everything will come 1:1 as posted.

As BFG stated your clan can still have as many players as you want. But you have to decide who will play for you during a season. Right now many players join a clan and hope to get some action, one purpose of having a clan, but never see any cbs because most clans play always with the same guys.

Contrary to BFG, my plan was that only one team per clan can participate. The rest needs to form a new clan with a team for this ladder or sit around idle. Being in a different clan, doesn't mean you have to give up "friendships". So you don't have to break up your clan for the *DBL, but may some players may split and create a new team under an own clantag to have some cbs in this ladder.

One of my goals is to show especially new clans that you should create a strong team, instead of collecting a huge amount of players that play sometimes together, you can do this without the *DBL as well. The *DBL means competition, so teams should play frequently together, and achieve something together.

@ Mysterio: well in conjunction with divisions teams with players that are also in the same clan are probably scattered around.

About cheating:  nowadays clans could do the same with clans that don't have a chance to make it into the finals and persuade them to lose in the end of the season. The problems are the same.

Fake clans etc…

Also logging in under a different name, was possible already for all previous seasons. So you could cheat and play for 2 clans in the same ladder…
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« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2006, 09:31:05 am »

Quote
Contrary to BFG, my plan was that only one team per clan can participate. The rest needs to form a new clan with a team for this ladder or sit around idle. Being in a different clan, doesn't mean you have to give up "friendships". So you don't have to break up your clan for the *DBL, but may some players may split and create a new team under an own clantag to have some cbs in this ladder.

Ahh sorry, i missinterpreted that!
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2006, 10:01:50 am »

No problem, it's also an idea. I think a lot about it.

I just think then some clans would even grow bigger to have many teams per ladder.  At all the difference is minimal: one difference is that only one team contributes to the clan's overall ranking and especially new clans are aware that they can only recruit x players for this ladder. Anything else doesn't make sense.

At all if you name the team GB and GB1 or have a clan GB and GB1 and teams with the same name is almost no difference. Feature wise each clan has their own overall ranking and awards are won by one team and not a few teams on the same ladder.

Both has its pros and cons.

I think one problem is that for many guys nowadays a clan is becoming more and more only a buddy list, but for a league a clan is group that plays together versus other clans. However if you don't get to play for the clan  the purpose of being in a clan is gone. At all you want to play with your buddies and you want to play  in certain ladders. If the team in your clan, where also a part of your buddies are, is full, group a new team under a new clantag with clanmates(buddies) that haven't made into the team as well.

In the *DBL a clan is a group of teams that play under the same tag for different ladders. If there is already a team with this clantag, create a new one. Your buddies are still the same and in GameRanger you can still play some noncompetition games together.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2006, 10:17:07 am by *DAMN Mauti » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2006, 01:46:02 pm »

Even if there is a lot of resistance to this, the change is needed. Back in the old days, a clan could be competitive in RS ladder with 4 or 5 people (well once even just two Wink) and many new clans in the RvS ladder as well. I can't speak for the GhR ladder, so I won't, but the number of players has nothing to do with success of the clan.

If I interpreted correctly and you said people in a clan (ClanA), but not on a team, could join/make another clan (ClanB) that has a team, while staying in ClanA; there should be no cause for complaints. There are many people who are in clans for the sentiment and memories as well; this may draw a few of them to competitive clans, boosting number of players.

List of successful clans under 8 players (from RS):
• Fire
• MP5
• The Untouchables
• RiP
• MoD (no relation to new one)
• SWAT
• (Most of the time under Cool KoS
• ooa (ººª)

There have been many clans that succeed with few players. Most of the RvS clans have not exceeded 8 active players. I don't think core had more than 8 when they won. You can all still be friends and all; but that was what the "sub-clan" of old was all about (aHa, jnewbs). It seems that that mentality transfered to full clans, hopefully the team system will bring more activity.

I'll put some thought into your info on the dummy clans (fake ones); there has to be some overly simple solution to this...
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2006, 03:14:37 pm »

I don't mind this idea as a whole, I think it could work for some clans but it won't for work others. My main concern is not the splitting of the clan but the fact that you are selecting a certain amount of people from the clan that are ALLOWED to cb while the others aren't. Look at {E} for instance, allowing 8 people to cb isn't a good thing for them even if they do have a sub-clan because they are so many people, there will still be about half the clan who aren't ALLOWED to cb at all. I personally think that having everyone in the clan elegable to cb is the best way to do it.
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2006, 03:30:36 pm »

The size of the team will depend on the ladder, but when you take a look at E, you can already split who mainly plays RvS, who plays GhR, etc. Then you gonna see less players are affected.

You are right that this measure will hit bigger clans more than new clans that already have this limit in mind while recruiting players.

Nevertheless i think clans will adapt to it, and may advanced statistics like times people are online, player ratings will help to make the decision easier who can join and who can't. The members will probably understand and can create a new clan while still being in their beloved "mother" clan.

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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2006, 09:59:24 pm »

We can't just focus on the impact of the changes today. Through out the next season there is a high chance of more games being played with more competitive teams.

We really need to look at it like this:

Now we have say 5 active clans: V,W,X,Y,Z
..on the ADV ladder:
V has 5 active members;
W has 12 active members;
X has 20 active members;
Y has 4 active members, and;
Z has 16 active members.

After the change there would be the following clans (# of players in brackets) [mother clan - #]:
V(5), Wshs [W-1] (7), Wtyxiyh [W-2] (5) , MacClan [X-1] (5), Raven's Shield [X-2] (5), Caped Crusaders [X-3] (5), Flying Frenchmen [X-4] (5), Y (4), Untouchables [Z-1] (6), Bold Moves™ [Z-2] (5), and Creatively Out of Ideas [Z-3] (5)

Thus there were 5 clans, now there are 11 clans; an increase of 220%. This is a best case scenario; but even if clans that didn't have to split decided to split into smaller factions would cause a significant increase.

It's a small sacrifice (without any real loss) in order to make the community more competitive.
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« Reply #17 on: June 10, 2006, 08:28:28 pm »

It seems to me this proposal does not solve anything.  The number of people in a clan does not have much to do with who is actually able to show up for cbs. This discussion seems to use {E} as an example, which is fine as we have a large roster (note that many are not too active).  {E} does not have a policy of letting some members play and some not, we pretty much go with whoever is online and wants to play.  Even with our large roster it is often difficult on any given day to field a 4-person team for CBs.

If the roster is split into smaller 8-man teams, won't it be even more difficult to get games going?  Splitting up into smaller teams or clans will increase the number of clans/teams, but I don't see how it will increase the number of available players (or the number of games).

How about forming inter-clan teams of individuals from all clans for a particular set of matches?  I suppose this would only work for scheduled games and keeping track of the standings might be a nightmare.  We have a pretty good stat tracking system now, perhaps more of an individual contest with varying teams would be interesting.
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« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2006, 09:47:55 pm »

I think the idea would be for the users to responsibly select what their teams would consist of. The people in each team won't be forced; thus, I would hope that the users would know who is usually online and available at the same time that they are. The way I see it, there is far more to gain than there is to loose from trying. After all, this method is breaking up the clan.

I hope that Mauti can make it easy for members to move around pretty simply. There has to be a more free flow of members for this system; that would be my main concern with this system right now.
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2006, 08:55:02 pm »

There are pretty cool ideas here.

I think that it would be great, if a clan can afford it, to register two "teams" for a season (Call it w/e: Team A & B or I & II, etc.). But I do not like the idea of clan members just switching back and forth from one team to another during the main season (it defeats the purpose of allowing more members to play and same guys can just be going back and forth - over and over (unless we limit the amount of times this switches can happen: such as to cover for an absence, etc (but again limiting it to 1 or 2 times per player through the season)). Instead, once the Finals begin, those teams from the same clan (in the case both teams made the cut) should be allowed to re-assemble (switch members, etc.) rosters for the Finals.... But after they Finals begin, no more switching between the clan teams should happen once again.

I do not believe this will necessarily bring division among clan members, but more opportunity for all members to get playing time and experience. Furthermore, since right before the Finals teams can be reassembled, the strongest players from both teams can join to form an even more solid team, or stay the same, etc. It's up to the clans... In the end, whoever wins it wins it for the whole....


Another event I would enjoy to see happen, is to have a sort of All Stars Match (this has been proposed before - but nothing has happened). Maybe we can create two Divisions whithin the same ladder, and have inter-league games as well as games whithin your division throughout the main season... this way each team from a same clan can represent one of the Divisions... etc. The All Stars Game can be made up with members whithin the same division, to go up versus the Star members from the other division.The Stars could be selected by the team Leaders of each team whithin the division, say 2 per clan or giving the higher ranked cland 1 more representative than the lower ranked clans, etc....

The Season Finals could be the top 4 teams from each division - going up versus the other (1a vs 4b / 2a vs 3b),etc.  Then the winners go to the super final!


« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 09:17:06 am by ~Po~ TiroFino » Logged

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