http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3556099.stm


We had a discussion here last week about the Madrid bombings
and the way terrorists should be dealt with.
There were a few people here who applauded using
harsh repercussions (even suggesting torture).
We have a chance now to test some these theories in practice
(it's not torture, but using air to surface missiles to take
 out an old man in a wheelchair is pretty harsh)
All I can say is that this is not the way to bring peace in the Middle East.

KGB, that old man in the wheelchair is the founder and leader of HAMAS. he is or was israels usama bin laden. he was personally responsible for murdering hundreds of people. there were to be talks between the palestinians and israelis this week, those talks were canceled after another suicide attack. that's the way it goes there KGB. they begin to talk peace, then HAMAS or some other group sends a suicide bomber into israel. they don't want peace, they want the end of israel.

In the other thread, I advocated doing what was neccesary to stop terrorism, even if that means doing something that I would find personally distasteful. I still hold that opinion. However, what the israelis did last night will not bring peace, only more war. As we covered in the other thread, just killing them will not stop them. There must be a solution which makes their cost too high to continue.

No GS I do not applaud these actions taken by Hamas
or any other kind of radical group, I find them disgusting and cowardly.
Just because I have doubts on how one party reacts to such actions,
doesn't mean that I like what the other side does.
I don't see the world as black or white, good guys and bad.
I see two sides of a story with "BAD" men on either side.
Some nut sets of a bomb in a marketplace , another nut shoots a rocket up a terrorist?s wheelchair.
These events will only infuriate the Palestinian population,
thus making it easier for Hamas to recruit them.
I never said he was innocent, I just wanted to point out that
shooting ppl with missiles was over the top.
It's like swatting a wasp with a sledgehammer,
it gets the job done but leaves a hell of a mess.

Actually the Israelis did botch an assassination attempt on him. They launched a missile strike on the fourth floor of a Palestinian building where Yassim was reported to have been staying. It was also reported that the building was a walk up and had no elevator. so what would a man in a wheelchair be doing on the fourth floor? how do you say oops in hebrew?

JD

 

Im sorry but i think that is bullshit. If paletinians lay down their weapons the illigal occupation by israli will continue to remain and expand... the media will loose interest and goverments will ignore it. The suiside bombings carried out by Hamas and others are appauling, shocking and terrible there is no doubt about it. At the same time the killing of civilians by the israeli army, the illigal occpation, the destruction of palestinians lives is just as appauling.  Israel dosn't need to lay down its arms, what it does need to do is stop the illigal killing, stop the illigal occupation, and stop the illigal segregation wall. It HAS to abide by the international community and the UN or nobody will listen to its complaints about terrorism.

IF the israeli's wanted peace they would have not just blown up the religiouse leader of Hamas, they have just made him a martyr of unbelievable proportions and i dread to think of what the retaliation from hamas will be. Sharon time and time again has made no effort for peace when there were such strong hopes and possibilites. He systematically destroyed the palestinian Police force and then complained that they didn't do anything to stop terrorism - he created the excuss to provide security in place of the police force, after destroying the police force! These Illigal Assassinations are appauling. This is no way to try and travel the difficult path towards peace



OF course its not ok. but at the same time it is NOT OK for a "Civilised" Country to behave like a terrorist organisation. Israeli is way way out of line, and no shit so are those palestinians who blow themselves and israeli's up . It is interesting that the US is the only country to "congratulate" the israili's on their 'fight against terrorism' everyone else in the west thinks otherwise... Congratulate? Congratulate them for blowing up a religioiue leader in a wheel chair... Oh yes i can just see all the members of Hamas etc now saying "oh dear, the israeli's have won. lets put our guns and bombs down and let them get on with their illigal occupation and systematic persecution of us"


Funny that i don't see Sharon and co paying a blind fucking bit of notices to the wish's of the international community... And of course they SHOULD Be - becasue they are not a terrorist organsiation.



Except firstly the settlers are not moving out. they are not making concessions and they are splitting comunities and families apart as they build this ILLIGAL wall around ILLIGALLY occupied land.... And in fact more than offten it is the actions of the israelis that break up any hope of peace. When I see the israeli army pull out completely of the occupied terrorties, when i see the ILLIGAL settlements removed, then and only then will it be more of a black and white case of a country under attack from a organisation such as hamas. However i firmly believe that should the ILLIGAL occupation stop, support for hamas should it wish to continue the fighting against the israeli's would end, and hamas would find it very hard to opperate.

haha read up a little bfg... http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040202-045403-4338r.htm
       
be sure to read this one too! http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/myths/mf22a.html

and when all else fails  http://www.thehistorychannel.com/

Ok BFG, that's a good start.

So you know that Israel was responding to the anarchy of being attacked at it's boarder, that they were trying to make a buffer zone, due to being attacked in the first place.

Given that, why would giving up that "buffer zone" be likely to stop the terrorists?  I grant to you that it would be better on the Palestinians there, but would it actually stop a violence that started (and was just as bad, if you read your history) before they did occupy it?

I fail to see the logic in that assumption.

I actually think that it them giving up that buffer zone would encourage more terrorism, in effect telling the Palestinians that terrorism works, and to keep at it.  It's not like the Palestinians are any more reasonable than the Israelies.

And BFG, if the Seminals decided to take a terrorist stance to regain any of their land, they'd lose all credibility to me.  If they put on uniforms (or war paint) and made war on the US Government (including it's agencies - the military), I would still say they had some credibility, but as soon as they turn terrorist, they are criminals, not freedom fighters.  And criminals don't have rights to that land.  

You may say that only some of them are criminals, and you'd probably be right, but I would argue that anyone that actively supports them is also criminal (aiding and abedding I believe it's called here), and is in the same category.  I don't care if you pulled the trigger, or just gave them a place to sleep, food and cleaned their weapon for them, both are guilty of being terrorist.  And those that don't support them, that really want a peaceful (or even proper, legitimate military action) solution, they need to understand that the terrorists hurt their cause more than help, and make efforts to stop the terrorist as well.

I think that's a key statement there, and I'm going to repeat it, just so nobody misses it.

And those that don't support them, that really want a peaceful solution, they need to understand that the terrorists hurt their cause more than help, and make efforts to stop the terrorist as well.

See, if that had ever happened in Palestine, Israel would never have been right to "spread their boarders".  And don't mistake it, they were right to.  It's only how they've treated the Palestinians that's been wrong, them occupying was the exact right national move given the circumstances.

I'll give you another example.

If the United States of Mexico (yes, their real name) broke down.  No more government, just anarchy.  No real army, just local warlords with lots of guns - I mean total and complete anarchy here, just like Palestine has been.  Now, if some of these Mexicans decided that they wanted a piece of Texas back, hey, who can blame them, right?  So, some warlord forms the TLO (Texas Liberation Organization).  Wants to bring his people back to Texas, since the dirty Americans stole it from him.  He knows there's no way George Bush or the USA is going to just let this happen, he even tries to do it peacefully at first, and gets laughed at.

Hell, we all know that the quality of life isn't near as good in Mexico as in the USA, so who can really blame this guy.  Many Mexicans feel shit upon by the USA, not being allowed to come up here and make a better life.

Now, this Pancho Villa decides that terrorist tactics are called for so that he's taken seriously.  So he starts raiding into Texas, killing innocent men, women and children in his cause.  There are bombings in shopping malls, churches, schools and even day care centers.  Nobody feels safe.

What can be done?

The United States of Mexico government, what's left of it, has no power to do anything to stop this even if they could.  The locals in Mexico have no love for the Americans, so they aren't going to help.  So, what we have here is a boarder that our neighbor isn't policing.  Well, as a nation, that is his job too.  It really is.  

Well, since they can't (or wont) do anything about it, to protect it's own citizens, the USA would be forced to go in and establish a buffer zone, a DMZ.  Yes, this would be an occupied territory.  Yes, it would suck for the Mexicans that had no part in this travisty, but there isn't really a choice, is there?  You have to put up some kind of fence, and I'm not talking chain link with razor wire, I'm talking about the kind where nobody can approach for miles and miles.  

There's no choice, the USA government would have to do this.  It would be ugly, it would be bloody, and it would be completely unfair to many Mexicans, but it would also be the only right thing to do.  If Mexico can't enforce law, than it's got to be enforced by someone, and since it's a choice between innocent American lives (who aren't running into Mexican shopping malls and blowing up children) and innocent Mexican lives (who just have no way to stop the terrorists), there's no real choice.  The people who's government didn't step in are the ones that are going to suffer more.  

Will this buffer zone solve the problem.  No.  What it will do is help protect (wont fully do the job) the innocent people, make it more costly for the terrorist, and hopefully give a wake up call to the government of Mexico to get it's shit together.


Switching back from hypothetical to actual now, just substitute Israel and Palestine now for USA and Mexico.

Now, all that said, IF there was a government in Palestine that could actually stop terrorists from attacking from this territory, I'd agree that it would be the best move for Israel to move out.  But until that happens, until that is in place, I can't see that there's even a choice.  

If you bring up UN peacekeepers, I'll just point out that they are the interim step.  That they should be called in to oversee the change.  But they can't be stationed there to police Palestine for an extended, even undefined period.  Palestine needs to be ready to shoulder it's responsibility BEFORE the UN Peacekeepers are called in.  Then yes, bring them in to help in the transition.  

What can't happen is Israel just moving back without any other real change, because it actually solves nothing.  It just moves the line.

OMG Bucc!  I thought I had too much spare time on my hands, but for you to write all that you must REALLY be bored!  I like it though, I really do.  But one small correction, if that really did ever happen inside Mexico, there would be no DMZ.....the U.S. would simply invade and make Mexico our 51st State of the United States.  Cause we don't put up with half the shit the Israelis put up with, and honestly, I wish the world would stop holding Israel back and let them take care of their little problem over there with a little less constraint.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

Bucc, read your post with great interest and many points i would totally agree on. Regarding the website i think your right, and yes i do expect israel to make more of an effort - but only in the sense that i feel in many ways they have in effect 'disabled' palestinians from doing so themselves - like removing most of the security force's and the police force that was actually capable of cracking down on the terrorist groups. Also the 'housearrest' of arafat for so long preventing him from visiting other goverments around the world was far from helpfull... I have so much to write about it but right now im going to call it time, i know you will understand this regarding the current situtation between particular Admins... i need a break

Look forward to dicussing this soon though!