:cO:. -vs- z][t Finals Dispute...

[crypt]

Hi, I am posting on behalf of :cO:. in this situation. First off, I'd like to say that I've seen the replay, and we are very certain that it is a glitch, though, because Gabe takes about 4-5 shots at the individual and most of them land directly on the hull of his body without taking effect.

If you weren't involved in either of these two clans or if you don't have any constructive or helpful comments about the situation, then don't post at all.

Thank you.

Here is the link to the replay file if you want to view it:
Switch to Gabe very quickly at the start and slow it down. Push 'p' to pause if needed. http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/0vilnius%20saved.rpf (make sure you right click and save linked file as)

And a few Screenshots of the situation below:

Click these for full size images:
http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%202.jpg
http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%203.jpg
http://www.matrixcg.net/cO/games/Snapshot%204.jpg

Here are a few different shots of the glitch:

[Aramarth]

These screenshots are very intriguing, yet they do not give the full story. From the shooter's perspective, a cloud of dust will usually appear to be a scored hit. Watching from the third person camera centered on Vieia makes the whole world look different.

I could step through each fired round like some sort of crime scene detective here in this thread, but I won't unless I have to. Only one of the impacts looks to me like a serious possibility. If it was a hit, it would have been left-shoulder. This one inconsistency is explainable by the viewing angle.

So what really happened? A prone shooter, in an exposed position, outshot a standing enemy who had cover up to the shoulders. We all know that a prone player shoots better.

Also, very few glitches assist a player who is being shot from "above/behind." Vieia was not looking out over the crest of a hill, he was head first toward the ground while Gabe was in a perfect shooting position.

I would consult other admins, but there really aren't any just now. I had some trustworthy friends (deputies anyone?) help me out in both reproducing the shot and watching the replay. I believe that there is not a confirmable glitch.

[crypt]

I remember watching vieia from 3rd person, and a few of the shots nail him. let me watch again.

EDIT: I have just watched it again, there are a few that clearly nail him I'm convinced you didn't even watch it ara, or otherwise you would see what i'm seeing.

EDIT EDIT: also, it's sometimes very hard to re create a glitch, i know you can't base it off a re enactment.

[Aramarth]

There will be others (Mauti I hope) who will look at this and help with the decision of course, but I really don't see what you're saying. For a glitch to be real, a hit must register ON the body but be scored as a miss. The most blatent example of this is a simple ditch glitch on the farm map. You can literally place a bullet into the head of a player, and instead of scoring a hit, dirt flies from the impacted location on the head. To put it another way, it would seem that the helmet you just shot was made of dirt. A normal shot hitting the same location will spray red "blood." The glitch sprays dirt from the target player. If the shot is a miss, dirt will fly from whatever is beyond your target which you happened to hit.

Now, look at this replay again. Every impact (or "dirt puff"), watching them one by one in 1/4 speed (third view centered on Vieia NOT the shooter), originates from the rubble pile. There is no "body" impact that sprays dirt. If there was, the spray of dirt would appear elevated away from the surface of the rubble, and from the "upper" surface of the body. At the most basic level, this means that the bullets (if they were truly hits) traveled through Vieia and did not cause any reaction. This is not how any known glitches operate. All known glitches feature a visible impact on the glitching player's model, but with an incorrect "result."

Simple one sentence summary: If there is something going on here, it is not a glitch, but modified game files.

I would be interested to know who was hosting?

[Aramarth]

I understand and appreciate your attitude Gabe. If everyone thought as you do, there wouldn't be any problems in this league.

That said, any issue with Civic ought to have a seperate thread.

I hope you will consult with other admins before you decide ara.

I sorta have to do that.

[crypt]

For a glitch to be real, a hit must register ON the body but be scored as a miss.

From the way it looks, you just mentioned exactly what the replay shows. We aren't looking to see if it was dirt or if it was blood that splurted. It's the fact taht the bullets hit exactly where his body should have been but registered as rubble shots.

[GEN BILLY]

For a glitch to be real, a hit must register ON the body but be scored as a miss.

From the way it looks, you just mentioned exactly what the replay shows. We aren't looking to see if it was dirt or if it was blood that splurted. It's the fact taht the bullets hit exactly where his body should have been but registered as rubble shots.

crypt how do you know he didnt just hit the rubble and not the body?  and how do you know his body should have been there but wasnt?

[Acri]

Dear *DAMN.
Aramarth, you mentioned a reproduction of the shot would be nice. I've made one. Blufire and Gabe both have a copy of it (Twist refuses to watch it) and the reconstruction clearly shows it is not a glitch. I am writing from a PC right now, and i will post the reconstruction when I get home.

Twist had a very interesting definition of a glitch: If you have an advantage over someone else. I don't believe this is the *DAMN definition of a glitch and if it is.... Isn't actually the cO guy the one with an advantage? He is the one hiding behind a rock...

The reconstruction was made under the supervision of Rampage and VieiA (host and accused player). We placed VieiA in his original position and fired at him from a few different ranges: Original range (2-3 shots to hit in the replay), and a few closer ranges (kill in first shot). The *DAMN definition of a glitch has never been applied to anyone being prone on ground that is not horizontal before. I remember a match between Core and whatnotclan where a glitch accusation came at Stronghold. It was said that it was not a glitch because he was not laying at an "edge". Neither is VieiA, is he? His full body is visible.

Gabe, things we do when we are desperate? I hardly ever feel desperate when we are in the lead. Perhaps you missed the shot because you were desperate. Happens to me all the time. Look at the reconstruction and make Twist watch it too. Twist told me he hates z][t and I guess that is why he is so unwilling to cooperate.

Zero T Clan will accept the admins ruling of this gracefully. We did what mattered. We've won three seasons in a row and if someone else gets the little winner icon... Well, we still did a smashing good job.

[SAR(VoLaTile)]

What if a couple of people re-inact what happened and test the glitch out? Same positions for both gabe and vieia. After they finish they save the replay and post a link to it to see the results/

[Acri]

Done, Sar. Contact me and I'll send it to you. Gabe and Blu has em already.

[Acri]

http://www.zero-t-clan.com/stuff/bl/reconstruct.rpf

Right-click and save.

I hope cO realizes that if this is a glitch, running down all slopes and going prone must be considered glitching. I also urge you to read some old glitching verdicts from seasons 5-7

[crypt]

I do infact think that it was a one-time glitch. There have been glitches called in the past when bullets have passed through someone and not actually counted as a hit. Me and Gabe also tried out the glitch and on several occasions Gabe was not able to hit me until the 5th or 6th shot.

The cb, being so close and at such a crucial point, must be considered accordingly. VieiA may have gotten lucky, but then again maybe he was unlucky in finding a rare glitch.

EDIT: Acri, you didn't even shoot them in the right spot, nor were they sitting in the right spot. Not convincing.

2nd EDIT: This decision should not be made according to previous finds, it's such a clear *accidental* glitch. If anything we should for Mauti.

[Acri]

I'd just like to point out we played vilnius twice (if i am not mistaken) during these three cbs... Both times we had zero casualties. Even if this is a glitch, which I really doubt it is, I doubt it would have made much of a difference.

And as i said. Whatever the admins say is fine with me. And... he was in no way invulnerable... you said yourself you managed to kill him. A glitcher is impossible to kill (if he isnt glitching poorly) and there is no running damn definition saying this IS a glitch.

[cO.twist]

ok, first off, the reinactment does no good, because you arent in the same position..one inch could make a difference, so there is no way to 'reinact' the situation.  Even though this isnt a 'normal' glitch, it obviously is a glitch, you can see the bullets go right through him, hitting the dirt behind him.  btw acri when i say advantage, i mean he cant be shot..not that he's in a better hiding spot..

and if you want to talk about the 'definition' of glitching..what about the huge glitch on day castle w/ all the houses..isnt that considered a glitch??  walking through the walls isnt under your 'definition' but its still a glitch.  

Even though Veiea may or may not have done this on purpose, he was still in a glitch.  And something needs to be done about this.
 
btw there is NO way you can say that it is 'doubtful' that it wouldve made a difference if veiea wouldve been shot or not.

[crypt]

I'd just like to point out we played vilnius twice (if i am not mistaken) during these three cbs... Both times we had zero casualties. Even if this is a glitch, which I really doubt it is, I doubt it would have made much of a difference.

You cannot base a decision on your bullshit. Just because you didn't die in any of the games, it doesn't mean that our team wouldn't have won that game, tying the cb instead of putting you ahead 5-3. This is what separates you from the rest of the community, your arrogance. I'm really getting tired of it too.

[cO.Vickedson]

IMO, the initial replay looks mad sketchy.  It's hard to believe someone in the finals would miss that many times SOOOOO close.  Those shots appear to go right thru him, exactly like what happens just around the corner on that map @ K13 on the stairs.

Go check it out, it should be noted that the map may be buggy.  If anyone is interested in seeing it hit me up on gameranger and I'll show you.  It has to do with lying prone, still being visible, and shots going right thru.  The only big difference is that stairs are involved, but then again this situation involves rubble and I'd guess that the programming of the game includes alot of similarities between rubble and stairs.

I watched the reconstruct too.  Even though it would probably be quite a challenge to be positioned exactly how Vieia was in the cb, the results put up by z][t are pretty convincing.

[crypt]

It has to do with lying prone, still being visible, and shots going right thru.  The only big difference is that stairs are involved, but then again this situation involves rubble and I'd guess that the programming of the game includes alot of similarities between rubble and stairs.

Thus, a complete but unfortunate and accidental glitch that should be treated accordingly.

[cO.Vickedson]

Definately.  By watching the replay I can say that there is no way that Vieia does what he did intentionally...There's simply no time.

But then again, there's nothing proving it was a glitch at all.  Not that I can see anyway, then again I'm not a highly skilled trained admin  .

Either he glitched by accident, or didn't glitch at all....IMO.

[c| Lone-Wolf]

Not that anybody is going to listen to me, but this, like everyone else has been saying, is an accident, and in addition to this both sides are (understandably, with it being a finals game) dug in to the point of virtually no compromise.  

So, the only course of action (unless it is difinitively proved to be an intentional glitch, or just terrible bad luck on the part of the shooter) that that finals game (or that round, whichever) be replayed.  I mean, really, nobody can seriously say that one side or the other is going say "whups, sorry, we were wrong, you win", so the best way to cut through all the crap is just replay it.

Just my thoughts.

[cO.gabe]

second, i did never say something about any "special circumstances"... here's the rules:

"5. The guest clan, which is the clan that is not hosting, chooses team color/slot and the first map played. Team color/slot cannot be changed as long as the same clan hosts. If the other clan starts hosting the guest clan can choose a different team color/slot."

this one is maybe more clear:

"7. In the first game of a CB, the guest clan chooses the map. In all subsequent games of the CB, the clan that lost the previous game chooses the next map. In case of a tie, the clan that did not chose the last time selects the next map."

So how does this explain how you guys chose the first map when we switched to Rampage's host?  You won the first game, we won the second game, then we switched to your guys host, and you picked the map.  I questioned why you guys would choose the first map on your host, and you replied that it was because the rules changed when we were switching hosts every two games.  Our clan knows you said it, you know you said it.  If you keep pulling shit like that someone is eventually going to get a screenshot, and you won't be able to argue.  So just watch it Civic.

Just like Crypt said, we reenacted this glitch/alleged glitch.  We spent about 15-20 minutes trying slightly different positions for each player.  Although each time I did eventually hit him, a few of those times it took quite a while - maybe 6 or 7 shots.

Acri, I don't give a shit whether it "probably wouldn't have made a difference", because that is not the point.  We both know it, I should hope.

I am still absolutely convinced that some of my shots went right through Vieia's body.  Although it may not have been a conventional ditch glitch, there are other glitches such as those mentioned by wickedson and twist.  

Not that anybody is going to listen to me, but this, like everyone else has been saying, is an accident, and in addition to this both sides are (understandably, with it being a finals game) dug in to the point of virtually no compromise.  

So, the only course of action (unless it is difinitively proved to be an intentional glitch, or just terrible bad luck on the part of the shooter) that that finals game (or that round, whichever) be replayed.  I mean, really, nobody can seriously say that one side or the other is going say "whups, sorry, we were wrong, you win", so the best way to cut through all the crap is just replay it.

Just my thoughts.

Lone-Wolf, honestly I don't think anyone in cO really expects the match to just be turned over in our favor.  It is too important of a game.  But we really would like to redo the game.