Trying to stop the truth only proves my point.

[Stripes]

we'll now u guys go OFF topic, what u are complaining for is the admins and their power. not how we can get the BL to work better.

are you guys (Snipe, GS, Myst) trying to say that we need better admins?

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

Stripes....... Maybe that is what they are saying.. it is not off topic... The topic started off as an admin abusing power prob that alaric was pointing out in a now locked thread and the continued abuse of power in this thread be locking the other one. (not flaming the admins just stating what the threads were about in hopes stripes will see that its not real off topic.. but tring not to go off topic myself in doing so)

[Aramarth]

Do you honestly believe that I close my mind to your ideas? That is what I am reading here.

I don't have any problem working for the best interests of the league, as you should well know. That is really the only reason I took this job. You waste your fire when you aim it at me.

Let me paraphrase to help you avoid flaming me for yet another round. The only point I disagree with you on is the statement "I answer to EVERYONE as an admin." The phrase there is detrimental, and unkind. Especially when it is waved in my face as if I haven't been doing it all this time. I don't have any beef working for you, but to answer to someone is to place them in a position of authority over you. You aren't in charge of me, Mauti is.

I challenge you to go back and look through my posts. Use the link on the user profile screen to call up the last hundred or so. You won't find me working for MoD, you will find me working for the betterment of the league. And the next time you decide to gang bash someone on this forum, try to pick your target properly. People like you, abusing this forum, are just as much a league problem as poor leadership.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

The only point I disagree with you on is the statement "I answer to EVERYONE as an admin." The phrase there is detrimental, and unkind. Especially when it is waved in my face as if I haven't been doing it all this time. I don't have any beef working for you, but to answer to someone is to place them in a position of authority over you. You aren't in charge of me, Mauti is.

I challenge you to go back and look through my posts. Use the link on the user profile screen to call up the last hundred or so. You won't find me working for MoD, you will find me working for the betterment of the league. And the next time you decide to gang bash someone on this forum, try to pick your target properly.

It was your own words that we were having a problem with.  You said it, not us.  You were the one that said you were here as an input for your clan-not for the rest of the battle league, you were the one that said you don't have to answer to anybody but Mauti, and you were the one that said you were not a tool at the disposal of just anyone.  We didn't say those things, YOU did.  So don't act like we are against you, we are just having a problem with the words YOU used.  If what you said isn't how you really feel, then tell us.  But from what I read you saying, you don't grasp the full understanding of the role of a BL Admin.

[Aramarth]

And neither do you apparently. The last time I checked, Mauti set the rules and not GhostSniper. Before you tell me what my job is, know what youre talking about. Since you seem to have no short term memory, this is what I said:

The fact is that the admins are present to provide input from their clans, to set up a chain of command, and to make up the jury by which delinquent clans are judged....

Nowhere do I say what you accuse me of. "Input from my clan" is merely a reference to the fact that I have the responsibility to tell other admins the ideas of my clanmembers. If you have an idea, the rules clearly state the chain of command which is in place for you to present it with. You talk to your admin, your admin talks to the group of admins, the chairman goes and tells Mauti. That is the chain of command, something which I would think you understand, Mr. Military. If you are in the third infantry division, you do not complain to the CO of the first division when you want somethign fixed. You talk to the CO of your unit, the third.

This is ALL I meant, and anything beyond that is you gentlemen misquoting me.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

And neither do you apparently. The last time I checked, Mauti set the rules and not GhostSniper. Before you tell me what my job is, know what youre talking about. Since you seem to have no short term memory, this is what I said:

The fact is that the admins are present to provide input from their clans, to set up a chain of command, and to make up the jury by which delinquent clans are judged....

Nowhere do I say what you accuse me of. "Input from my clan" is merely a reference to the fact that I have the responsibility to tell other admins the ideas of my clanmembers. If you have an idea, the rules clearly state the chain of command which is in place for you to present it with. You talk to your admin, your admin talks to the group of admins, the chairman goes and tells Mauti. That is the chain of command, something which I would think you understand, Mr. Military. If you are in the third infantry division, you do not complain to the CO of the first division when you want somethign fixed. You talk to the CO of your unit, the third.
This is ALL I meant, and anything beyond that is you gentlemen misquoting me.

You still don't get it.  I can go to you, Civic, or any other admin with an input for the BL.  You are not the spokesperson for your clan.  That is the part you don't get.  NOT ALL CLANS HAVE AN ADMIN IN THE BATTLE LEAGUE.  What more do I have to say.  If someone is in a clan, and they don't have an admin in the BL, what are they supposed to do to get their ideas into the BL???  The way you have laid it out, they can't.  Don't you see, you are to take inputs from anyone in the BL, not just the members of your own clan.  And likewise, you don't speak for your clan, your clan leader does.  Come on, think about what you are saying....because what we are saying is going right over your head.

[Brain]

this is another example of something that was a good aide and got fubar real fast, clan admins


if i remember correctly, the admins were being chosen due to how respected they were in the community and for general level headiness.  now, since nobody wanted to offend one clan over another or perhaps give one clan leverage over the rest, one admin from each of the top clans were chosen.

never was it said that they were to represent their clan's interest, rather the 1 admin from each clan thing was supposed to PREVENT that.  each BL admin is just as responsible to the entire community as any other.  

yea, if brutha comes to ara, then ara should present the idea, but brutha should also be able to go to civic, or KoP or any other admin and it should be presented as BRUTHA's idea, not ara's, not mod's but brutha's.

just because you are in a clan does not mean that  you are supposed to represent you own clan's intreats. that is EXACTLY what was drying to be prevented by this system

a refresher course for those of you who have not read the BL rules in a while as to the (thoroughly broken) chain of command present here at DBL
(taken directly from the damn bl rules page, points 6 and 7 removed edited for relevance reasons)


*DAMN Battle League Command Structure
1.? Chain of Command - (Mauti <=> Elandrion) <=> Chairman <=> Admins <=> Community

2.? The *DAMN Battle League (*DBL) ? Lead by *DAMN Mauti and *DAMN Elandrion. *DAMN Mauti is the founder of the *DBL. *DAMN Elandrion is responsible for the *DBL scripts.

3.? The Administrating Chairman (Chairman) - The Chairman has the function to enforce the Admin guidelines, to solve Admin-related issues, give out warnings to Admins, and may even suspend or ban *DBL Admins if violations reoccur. The Chairman is also a moderator of the *DBL Admin Zone and can merge, split, etc threads if the need arises. DO NOT send questions about CB?s or rules directly to the Chairman.? They will not be answered.

4.? The Administrators (Admins) ? They are the center of the *DBL.? Their responsibilities include enforcing the *DBL rules, solve CB-related issues, to help with script questions, and more. They are the interface between the *DBL and the community.? The *DBL Admins can also be found playing in the *DBL, so you will often find them online in GameRanger. If you have any questions or problems, please ask in the *DBL Forums. DO NOT send questions about CB?s or rules directly to Mauti or Elandrion.? They will not be answered.? Also, the Admins reserve the right to handle violations of these rules on an individual basis, which may contradict the printed consequences outlined in these rules.
5.? The Community ? You are playing in the *DBL, which means you are also part of the *DBL. If you have any questions or suggestions for improvements, please post them in the *DBL Forum.


if you will direct your attention to points 4 and 5, you will notice no mention of any rules of where the community is to report to OTHER than the admins in general... it is just a given that the 'clan admin' would be easiest to reach, right?

also, if ara's chain of command was correct, than a good 80% of the clans are left out in the cold because they have NO representation in the admin structure

it's thinking like this that has created the fragmented us verses them community that we are dealing with now as opposed to the  good of the many philosophy that was present back in the r6/rs days

[BTs_Mysterio]

People who admin for their clan only and not answer to the greater good need to step down, or really reconsider what they are doing. It's also a piss off to see that most admins don't even reply to threads like this. Some of which I've never seen post in this section. What's up there?

[Aramarth]

Fuck, there that is again. I never said I favor my clan over another. I did not say that.

GS, how do clans without admins give input? Sure, they can come to me. Thats not a problem at all. As I said, for about the 5th time I think, I merely object to the notion that my role as an admin is subservient to absolutely anyone. No one is or has been in any danger of my not listening. I just have a real problem with being told what my job is by anyone in the league. That is Mauti's place alone.

You see GS and Brain, I never said that someone in another clan cannot come to me. I merely said that MoDs can. You attribute meaning between the lines, which I'll admit could be there, but it isn't in this case.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Ara, you seemed to have changed you mind multiple times during that post. Let me attempt to get this straight. You want to represent you clan, yet you will listen to others, but you want to answer to mod, not anyone?

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Ara, you seemed to have changed you mind multiple times during that post. Let me attempt to get this straight. You want to represent you clan, yet you will listen to others, but you want to answer to mod, not anyone?

lol....Yeah, I heard the same thing....thought I was at a John Kerry convention there for a minute....  

[BTs_Mysterio]

How about a George Bush commercial GS. Half the time they support the wrong side.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

How about a George Bush commercial GS. Half the time they support the wrong side.

Okay okay....let's not turn this in to a political debate....I was wrong for starting it.

Now, back on the subject at hand....

I think Aramarth may have just worded things wrong at first....but then with each new post he contradicted himself and then made his ideas sound even worse.  I just hope he sees my point now.

[BTs_Lee.Harvey]

And thats the point i was pointing out the second time... The point of you worded yor stement in a way that made it seem (to the rest of the comunity) that you are only looking out for your own clan. When I pointed that out.. You said.. Well You guys need to reword what you are saying b/c The Way I put it was right.. That made you sound realy arrogant realy fast.. sence it was most of us who were tring to see what you were tring to say. I was tring to see if thats what you mean by your first statemnt on the matter or what.. but instead you turned it around as the rest of us flaming you .. wich in turn just proved the point i was amking further abot how and why things are falling apart.

now let me recap.

You first post on this matter made it seem to us that you were only an admin for your clan (by the way you worded your statement) We pointed that out. then you said.. that you must be understanding us wrong and we need to reword how we pt it.. when it was you we were tring to understand. When we told you that you blew it more out of porportion making it seem to the rest of us that your first statemnt was true

Now when i was an admin (in |GM| .. anything that my clan asked me to do.. I told them to go to another admin b/c I cant deal with things from my own clan...... now when i joined BTs I had seen in the last season that the rest of the admin (not all but most of them)would argue for there clan in the admin ducussions dealing with there clan... So even hough i didnt have a say in the outcomes.. I still tring to make my points in the threads dealing with BTS... just like alot of the oher amdins were doing for there own clans.. But I never did it b/c they asked me to.. And anyone will tell you (who was in a clan during that time) that if they had a prob they could come to me.. I could either fix it fast (removing players from roster if there leader was not around, deleateing double posted CB's, etc...) or I would talk to other admins online at the time..... .who most of the time came down to civ, flies, bucc occationaly, and mabe one or 2 others... funny thing is I remeberone of the points about having so many admins was to make sure there was enough online at all time to make quick desisions.. but normaly there were no more the 2 admins on at any given time.. where where the rest of the 13 admins.. who knows.... I know a few others were online.. typhy and some others.. but if you asked them o help out.. I got the normal.. Im  not a GhR admin.. I'm an AA admin.. go ask someone else.

But ara.. i think you need to reword your post (original post) in a way that does not make the comunity feel that you are biased in any way.. I know that you do help other clan... but your post make it look like totaly the oposite.

[BTs_Mysterio]

If it's a mistake reword it and let's move on.

[Noto]

just because you are in a clan does not mean that  you are supposed to represent you own clan's intreats. that is EXACTLY what was drying to be prevented by this system

Yes and no?  I would think one of the reasons for having Admins from the top clans, quite a few I might add, is that those same top clans harbor the majority of the players active in the BL itself.  I know what you're trying to say in regards to an Admin not having true clan affiliation when administrating, but I think the current system was instated to help represent the majority of the community, which is/was represented by the current Admins.

In a system where you are looking for less clan affiliation, the Admin team should be made up of respected individuals regardless of which clan they happen to be a part of, but this is not the way it is now.  Maybe that's how it was "back in the day", but I think it's pretty clear that a clan's interest is pretty much brought to the table by their representing Admin.

If the community really wants Admins who represent them, why not simply have a poll to vote on the top people for the job?  The first vote could have tons of people, but then you could have run off "elections" with a second or third vote.  I think this community is small enough to know who would and would not do a good job, and reputation would obviously be the biggest platform.  Just a suggestion of course, but it might avoid some of the sentiment against clan affiliation.  This of course would be highly similiar to Elementary School Government elections.  Pick the prettiest girl and the guy who can kick a ball the furthest.

.::|N| Noto

[TRIBE_Horda]

People who admin for their clan only and not answer to the greater good need to step down, or really reconsider what they are doing. It's also a piss off to see that most admins don't even reply to threads like this. Some of which I've never seen post in this section. What's up there?

well i did suggest that:

the Chairman had to not be IN A CLAN ( but i still think a guy like BFG is doing pretty good work)

a moderator must not be an admin or only in battle league forum ( its why i am not a moderator i asked Mauti to remove me from moderators when i became admin)

only 1 admin/moderator/chairman per clan

need --->some<---- admins that are not in a clan

also something that record actions made by admins  ( thats Elandarion's work ) to make easier the work of our dear Chairman

[BTs_Mysterio]

I don't think you need to have admins away from clan's because 95% of the time they will be detached from what the clans are thinking. It's just a matter of the admins being honorable enough to not solely look out for their clan. When you become a admin you need to be responsible enough to answer to whoever questions you. Admins answer to the players because the players have to follow the final decisions. If a admin is solely looking out for their clan and that affects a vote that should have gone to the other side. I'm going to say this in bold:

Admins aren't there for their clan. They are there for the community.

[/b]

[Civrock]

Admins aren't there for their clan. They are there for the community.

[/b]

i completely agree.

admins aren't here for their clans -only-... we are mainly here for the community.

[BTs_Mysterio]

Thank you civic. Now get Ara on the same page.