Make Admin Votes Public...

[alaric]

Jealous? I think so!

I thought you were on vacation flies? Fishing not so good this season?

[cO.gabe]

Well I, for one, can imagine imagine an annoying situation that might arise if there were to be public voting.  

Say I'm an admin and I vote NO on a particular issue, and it is made public.  Then I decide to go on GameRanger and play a few relaxing games.  As soon as I get on, I start getting PM's asking me why I voted NO, etc.  It isn't that I can't "take the heat", its just that I would like to be able to be online without all sorts of windows popping up all over the place asking me this and that.  

I know this could be a real issue because its happened before to me.  When I left my last clan I had everyone PMimg me asking me why I left.  It made me want to just create a new account and use a different name so I wouldn't be recognized.

So yes, an admin should be able to take criticisms and vote without fear of hurting feelings and whatnot, but when you have to start blocking people on GR who are trying to interrogate you, it just doesn't make sense.

[alaric]

Gabe, they do have a right to ask you why you voted the way you did. But they don't have the right to harass you. This is why evill created the "ignore" button, for those who don't like being pestered all the time. Personally, I don't believe in using the ignore button except in the most severe cases and even then only for a while. I am proud to say I don't have a single person on GR in my ignore list right now, and I plan to keep it that way.

I just this is just an extention of my personal policy to be as open and frank with people as possible.

[|?K|*Rapid*]

Mellow, if an admin can't take Rapid's rantings then why are they an admin? We cover wearing Rapid-level flame retardant clothing on the first day.

Well..this responce is not to alaric alone, but to all that feel that public voting is a good thing.

Well, as I dont know rapid, i cant be sure, but it has been told me that he has been permabanned from GR(if so...nice job) but he is one. Trying to fight flaming in a forum is a lot easier here than in GR...sure you can allways block, but you cant get away from all what is said in B&G

Geezuz Krist(yeah, spelling wrong on purpose)!  What are people telling you about me!  WTF!

Dude, I'm rapid.  And no, I'm not banned from GR.  I'm leader of the |?K| clan, been here since October 2001.  Won our first BL that we entered.  And continued to place top 4, after not being as active as the first season, for the rest of the time, until some biased moderators that made horrible calls against us, in crucial times, which lead us to stop participating on the *DAMN BL.  I have at no time been "banned from GR".  Hell, in fact, just 2 days ago, this asshole called smoke.aHa, account 105010, was impersonating me for the second time in 2 weeks, in which he puts on my tag when I'm not there, and acts like a complete asshole to everybody and asks for pirated version of games, etc.  Not only that, but I know there's a couple other sour pusses that spread BS about me also, in hope to make me look bad.  

Now that you know who I am, I really hope I never see you posting any BS about me or my clan Brutha.  Got it?  -|?K|*Rapid*

*sigh*

Alaric, stop acting as if I'm some sort of flamer on these forums.  Like I've told you a million times, I don't start it, I end it.  I had change the tone of my posts, for these flamers, who's posts were not being deleted, or warned to stopped flaming, for them to understand at their level.  Had they not been allowed to flame against me in the FIRST, and then their posts just sat there unmoderated full of flames, I would not have had to respond the way I did.  Hell, some of these moderators loved it, since they hated getting <HUMPED> in RS by yours trully.  Their way of getting revenge.  Using their Mod Powers on these forums.  And then, getting others, to join in with them, to "dislike" the same person, which happened to be me.  Had any of you tried talking to me, you would not act the way you do.

*double sigh*

|?K|'s 2004 Website

["Sixhits"]

At the end of the day I want to see th BL Admins treated with respect and the BL Players treated with respect.

If most ppl think that open votes will generate more respect for both Admins and Players then opening the votes up is fine by me.

I worry, tho, that as we are a community of various ages with various maturity levels and various points of views and goals, opening up the votes to general scrutiny will lead to more negativity heaped on the heads of the Admins. I can only say I've gotten this notion from watching the exchange over the recent banning of an exceptional clan for an unacceptable action (or lack of action).

If mutal respect is the goal then transparency seems like a good route to take. If you know what, why, and how someone voted mature people should be inclined to sympathy. The issues of contention should shift from "What are you hiding and why are you hiding it, Mr. Admin" toward "Why did this vote have to happen."

I just worry, as I've seen the attacks swing back and forth, that this community is not ready to appreciate the why's behind ppl's votes - even if fully transparent, even if you could read the mind of the voter. Because everyone has an agenda: everyone wants to "win" the vote, not benefit the community.

It's as clear as day: the community is not a mature place; it is a fun place. The presumptive maturity rests with the Admins. Admins are selected by the clans to represent them. The Admins in turn have a classic "rock and a hard place" sorta job. Good leadership is not easy. If we as a community constantly harp on each and every decision then people start attacking the Admins themselves rather than the problem the decision addressed. Which is just stupid. And I think open votes will just open up the Admins to more direct attacks.

It's not about whether someone can "back" their decision. They shouldn't have to be putting their ass on the line just to make a call. Do umpires take hours to explain why that pitch was a ball or a strike or why they kicked a player outa game? Should they have to?

No.

My elongated 2-cents.

[spike]

Rapid a recitation of the checkered history of clan AK has no place in this thread. It's spam pure and simple.

Keep it short and sweet. Anything beyond that is lowering yourself to the level you accuse Rapid of maintaining. Spam perhaps, but are you one to judge?

[BFG]

Sixhits, i think you've just about hit every nail on the head in that post.

Elongated, but very vauable 2-cents indeed

[BTs_GhostSniper]

It's not about whether someone can "back" their decision. They shouldn't have to be putting their ass on the line just to make a call. Do umpires take hours to explain why that pitch was a ball or a strike or why they kicked a player outa game? Should they have to?
No.

My point in starting this thread was not that the admins would have to explain WHY they voted a certain way.  All I wanted to do was make their actual votes public.  Umpires?  You mean we don't get to SEE that he calls a pitch a ball or a strike???  I think we do.  That is my point.....I just want to see what admin said "yes" or "no" to each issue being voted on.....just like in Congress.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[theweakspot]

Ghost has a point and I think this thread brought up a good question.

I know some reasoned that the BL admins should be like members of Congress who have to make their votes public and stand behind the reasoning involved in making that decision.  

I think the fundamental difference between the BL admins and members of Congress is rather simple.  The US is a Democratic Republic-- we vote for representatives who then make decision for us.  But in the end, the members of Congress who represent us are still bound to us and accountable to us becuase we get to decide whether or not they stay in office.

The BL is not a Democratic Republic.  The Admins do not need our approval to stay in office.  They are just a small administrative circle that have been 'entrusted' to do the right thing.  More like a Panel of Dictators who hand down rulings and we have to just accept them and like them.... or be banned, I guess.

There would be no reason for them to open up their discussions or votes or reasoning to us.  They are not accountable to us, we have no say.  It's like some Cuban peasant asking Castro why he made his decisions... it just won't happen.

Perhaps if the BL admins were voted to terms by the citizens of the BL, but that wont happen.

[Aramarth]

BTW, this topic is starting to look a heck of a lot like a campfire. This is your official comment from on high to keep on the topic of admin voting records, and leave the rest at the door.

[|?K|*Rapid*]

Rapid a recitation of the checkered history of clan AK has no place in this thread. It's spam pure and simple.

Keep it short and sweet. Anything beyond that is lowering yourself to the level you accuse Rapid of maintaining. Spam perhaps, but are you one to judge?

Spike, your extremely biased opinions on me or my clan, have no place here in this thread.  So stop being such the hypocrite.  

In fact, my checkered history, was indeed needed, since a dumbass named :MoD: Brutha, decided to post some bullshit about me, and none of  the mods did anything about it.  Especially at the tone of his post.  So I most definately needed to post who I am, so Brutha would know, and not pass me off for some asshole that acts like you for example.

Then we have your dumbass post that I'm spamming and some other bs?(which I'm glad it got deleted)
And then the mod/s think that mb my post "perhaps is spam" when clearly it isn't?  You're the spammer, posting nonsense here, and the fact I couldn't have Aramarth properly delete your "views", I am forced to simply respond to them.  Next time, keep your flames at home, flamer.

[spike]

 
Admin's should have the freedom, and leisure to decide privately. We are not in danger of being opressed in anyway as might happen with the government. This is a game, it is meant to be fun. I support the secert ballot. To disclose ones vote is the admins decision alone.

Sry for the flame up top, thanks for deleting it Ara, I was wrong. Next time I'll pay more attention to Smokey the Bear

["Sixhits"]

It's not about whether someone can "back" their decision. They shouldn't have to be putting their ass on the line just to make a call. Do umpires take hours to explain why that pitch was a ball or a strike or why they kicked a player outa game? Should they have to?
No.

All I wanted to do was make their actual votes public.  

Unless I'm mistaken the votes are public. You just don't get to see the actual breakdown of the votes.

So, you want to see the breakdown of the votes. You want to know who voted and how.

Explain to me if I'm wrong, but it still sounds like you want to open up the ballot box, rather than just see the result of the votes. How is this gonna make things like Bts's problems cease to occur? Accountablity means nothing unless it adds up to some real postive affect.


Another point I made was that, in my opinion, this whole "open up the votes" thing is only an issue because some of us have an agenda to get what that can't have in the ruling by changing the structure of how those rules are made. Presumably in order to affect change on future rules they won't like.

And that feels a lot like a which hunt: constantly nagging about how one admin or another voted one way because they always back that other admin ... it just strikes me as looking for reasons WHY they voted, then attacking those reason (valid or not), in order to discredit the vote.

But ppl seem to forget the vote still stands whether you win the PR campaign or not. And little have I heard from proponents of the "open viewing of votes" side that assures me they aren't simply looking for ways to make their slander easier.

We should be looking for ways to mullify your anst over the Bts vote, Ghost. Their should be honest communication between your boys and the admins, in general. I think that such a point has already been made, and that the concensious was that communication broke down.

That to me is the real nugget of concern. Rule must be abided by in order that we all ahve fun. But sometime rules get broken. And in breaking rules we need to talk about how to resolve the problem. And the problem ISN'T that a vote went against Bts. The problem is that BOTH sides, Admins and Bts, felt that the other wasn't listening and hence decided the other was in breach of what they thought of as "right".

How on earth will opening up the Admin's votes foster better communication? Should be be opening up all Clan internal conversations about every decision made? It certainly would be transparent. But it would be pointless. It would only fuel the fire.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Unless I'm mistaken the votes are public. You just don't get to see the actual breakdown of the votes.
So, you want to see the breakdown of the votes. You want to know who voted and how.
Explain to me if I'm wrong, but it still sounds like you want to open up the ballot box, rather than just see the result of the votes. How is this gonna make things like Bts's problems cease to occur? Accountablity means nothing unless it adds up to some real postive affect.
Another point I made was that, in my opinion, this whole "open up the votes" thing is only an issue because some of us have an agenda to get what that can't have in the ruling by changing the structure of how those rules are made. Presumably in order to affect change on future rules they won't like.
And that feels a lot like a which hunt: constantly nagging about how one admin or another voted one way because they always back that other admin ... it just strikes me as looking for reasons WHY they voted, then attacking those reason (valid or not), in order to discredit the vote.
But ppl seem to forget the vote still stands whether you win the PR campaign or not. And little have I heard from proponents of the "open viewing of votes" side that assures me they aren't simply looking for ways to make their slander easier.
We should be looking for ways to mullify your anst over the Bts vote, Ghost. Their should be honest communication between your boys and the admins, in general. I think that such a point has already been made, and that the concensious was that communication broke down.
That to me is the real nugget of concern. Rule must be abided by in order that we all ahve fun. But sometime rules get broken. And in breaking rules we need to talk about how to resolve the problem. And the problem ISN'T that a vote went against Bts. The problem is that BOTH sides, Admins and Bts, felt that the other wasn't listening and hence decided the other was in breach of what they thought of as "right".
How on earth will opening up the Admin's votes foster better communication? Should be be opening up all Clan internal conversations about every decision made? It certainly would be transparent. But it would be pointless. It would only fuel the fire.

This has nothing to do with the stuff that happened with BTs last season.  I'm not even asking that the votes that have previously been made be made public....I asked that it start from whenever it was voted in.

Also, I do not want this so I can slander someone.....that has nothing to do with it.  I simply want to see who voted yes and who voted no for each topic.  I again must ask the question....if so many admins are against this, just what do they have to hide?  Why all the secrecy?  If it were me, I would be saying "hell yes let's make the votes public."  But then I have very high Integrity and Honor, and would have no problem letting people see how I voted.  Of course that's just me.

Peace.

-GhostSniper Out.

[Aramarth]

I said it before, but I will repeat it for you. The admins speak as one, and were our voting records published, it would look like we did not.
Besides, you can ask the admin from your clan how he voted. He is the one responsible to you. I couldn't look my clanleader in the face and tell him I wouldn't share my voting record. However, I don't see how you can ask that, as I do not represent you in particular.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

Hold on a minute.....now it sounds like you are the representative of your clan.  Well, that should definitely not be the case.  You are a representative of the Battle League, and should not be answering to your clan or even your clan leader.  You should be doing what YOU think is the right thing, not what your clan leader thinks is the right thing.

[Aramarth]

You are grasping at straws... let me elaborate. For the purposes of making new rules, it was considered that the major clans each needed a vote... that is where the idea of one admin from each clan came from. If it is a rule arbitration, where we are interpreting rules, you're right, we aren't supposed to be "members of clans."

Even so, what about a congress model which everyone is so fond of? The state of Pennsylvania can elect whomever they darn well please, and Virginia can't say a thing about it. Now, these same senators represent the Country, and their States, at the same time. That is what I was trying to get at. The senator from PA is not answerable to you. The moderator from [01] is also not answerable to you. We answer to Mauti, the Chairman, one another, and our respective clans.

[BFG]

At the same time however remember Aramarth you are a representation of the community, and the underlining role of the admins are to aid the community, be it a member from the same clan or a guy who has just joined a 'two hour' clan.

At the same time mauti appointed these people as they were considered valuable members of the community who could both take this role and aid and inprove it. For the Admins to be answerable to every little quibble on any persons whim would i feel cause bloody chaos.

[BTs_FahQ2]

now you are arguing the true role of admins?  Maybe you should write rules for that too and have a vote that may be public or not in the secret admin forums.

For shits sake, just let it go.  This is getting insanely out of hand.  Just about every thread is locked and suggestions never go through because of endless bickering. Bah, what a waste

[Noto]

Let us all not forget that the Admins represent the community as well as the opinions of their own clan.  One of the purposes of having an Admin per clan was to get a true sense of what the clan-affiliated majority wanted from this league.  You should know how your clan leader voted because I would hope they would have consulted their entire clan before voting about anything.  It really isn't necessary to see who voted on what topics.  Perhaps the vote should be posted, such as "Blah Blah Blah Proposal passed 5-2".  This is not the U.S. Senate nor is it a true democracy.  As much as some of you would like to know how everything is done, it is not only unnecessary, but it would lead to many peripheral problems that I can forsee in the future.

.::|N| Noto