Proposal for a *DAMN Battle League Finals Tournament

[Mr. Lothario]

     Ah. Sorry, I figured that your post had some bearing on the proposal for a finals tournament.

[Civrock]

i agree with Flies in most points and vote no to MP's suggestion too.

Flies explains the doubts i had when i posted in this thread first time very good, the problems and complications which could/would occur.

[Mr. Lothario]

     Ah, a list of valid complaints. I thank you, Flies.

     Now, do you fellows have any suggestions for ways to remove the flaws you perceive?

[alaric]

Your request for a minimum of 4 CB?s played in open season...
I think this limitation to the open season could in some way be used ?the other way around? as an excuse for some clans to not CB, if they already fulfilled this very very low limitation of Cbs, giving access to finals.

I'd like to point out that many clans don't even do 4 cbs a season, so even this would make for more action during the regular season. As for it being an excuse not to cb? Honestly, so what? Those clans will have the worst seeds possible and get knocked out of the finals first round.

Only one CB to determine wether or not you are out of the finals.
Well, thats actually the part i like in the existing way of doing finals. The two opponents gets best of 3 CBs to determine who is best. To me, only doing one CB is weakening the excitement of the Season.

The idea behind the single elimination is to play one cb and get that round done with. I think most of the scheduling problems we've seen so far are due to clans haveing to cb several times during the course of the week. In my mind, that's harder to organize for two reasons: one, it's the same clans. two, the time allowed for them to schedule is too wide open. If you set it to one day everyone can plan to be available on that one day and anyone who can't simply forfeits.

Also, that one cb is going to be 3 times the excitement because it's all on the line.

All have to play on the same map ? map is chosen by admins.
Of course I am a bit biased here, being an admin and all. But imagine the discussions arising :
 
First discussion amongst the admins.... ?What map to pick ??  !!!!!
Next discussion in open forum : ?You lousy son of bitches admins, what kind of stupid map is that to pick for finals? The map is too large/small ? too laggy/too fast ? too biased on team-inserts....list of complaints is endless.

I would like to stay with the free ?initiative?. I think clans should pick map by themselves, according to the rules, and further : ?Looser picks map ? winner picks teamcolor.?...
And in general I feel it a bit awkward to have the whole League playing the one and same map.

The idea behind this idea is to equal the playing field between the clans. If the goal is to determine who's best you need to remove as many variables as possible to test a teams skill and ability in a variety of situations. If everyone has to play every map, the best clan becomes much easier to determine: "Who is the best overall in every situation?"

In other words, what we're trying to get away from is clans who have just a few maps they're really good at and don't play at all on the others.

No possibility to make an appeal on DAMN-site, if something went wrong......
Hmmm.... You could say that this would indeed lower the number of CB-issues, but mb its a bit too tough, if a CB has to be settled on the spot, by only one admin, and none of the clans involved can get it any further, if he should misunderstand or make a wrong judgement. Noone is perfect ? not even admins.
Much as we hate all the glitch-issues and stuff here on DAMN ? it is still the most democratic and interesting system i have seen so far, to settle these matters within 3 admins at least, and it gives a lot of know-how in the effort to prevent same bs to happen twice.

The absolute number one problem last season and in this league in general is BL forums rules lawyering. Last season's RvS finals were disrupted by clans turning to the BL forums to overrule decisions they don't like. Why have admins available at all on GR if all clans are gonna do is appeal to the BL forums all the time?

Will the right decisons be made on the field all the time? No.
Are the right decisons made in the forums all the time? No.

Admin/ref mistakes will be made, just like in any sport. It's part of the game no matter how you design it.

It is already complicated to have 4  or 6 clans scheduling their cbs for finals
? and now we should have 16 ?

Yes, and I think that's a problem our system fixes. By limiting the cbing to one day per round, if a clan doesn't make it, that's it, they're out and the other clan gets a bye. And because there are many admins on, it can be quickly verified that one clan never showed.

Also, because everybody cbs on the same day, people can plan to be available that day alone, instead of random times during the week. Seems alot easier to me anyway.

I fear a lot of clans will have to back out of the finals, simply due to probs with scheduling. And I fear that too many of the top-cbs could be used tactically. If a lousy clan has to meet a super-clan, and they know they stand little or no chance of winning, they could fuck it up for the top-seeded clan, by making a fuzz out of scheduling the cb.

Fully half of the RvS teams "backed out" of the finals this way last season. One of the advantages to having more clans participate in general is that having teams forfeit doesn't destroy the finals. Byes are handed out and life goes on.

And for making a fuss out of scheduling the cb, again, if they don't show, they forfeit. The other team just needs to be available that one day instead of all week. A much simpler system, in my mind.

*  I think we will end up with 16 angry clanleaders shouting at each other on DAMN forum, because of the scheduling process.
*  I think we will end up with the whole community screaming at admins for picking the wrong maps.

Let them shout, the admin decisons are final. Another part of this system tries to give some of the respect and power back to the admins. Doesn't matter how much clans bitch, the admins are still the ones calling the shots.

I think we will end up with the open ? regular ? season being lowered in activity, because you can stay alive for the finals with just 4 cbs played in open season.

Quite a few clans don't cb 4 times a season now, and I think this is because they realize they have no chance of getting into the finals. By using an open finals system they are encouraged to keep playing making the league better for everyone.

Also, by using open finals ladder ranking is less important, it no longer decides who gets into the finals, which is the most serious flaw in our current system. Under our current system tactical cbing is rampant. The proposed system fixes that and gets the regular season's focus back on general cbing, hopefully adding more fun back into the league.

I think we have to rewrite so many rules in order to secure this proposal, that it could take weeks and weeks to get it rdy (remember, we have a few admins that have to agree on rules-changes).

You've said yourself there's not much difference between the current system and the proposed system. All the changes are minor and each of them serves a purpose. If the proposed plan is put into action, I think this will be a much healthier league for it.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

From what I learned in private chat with you, you are completely unwilling to compromise on this suggest from you. At least I got that sorted out.

This has nothing to do with the argument.  Loth is welcome to his opinion just as you are.  But it's not an all or nothing thing.  Compromise can be reached amongst the admins.  

Your request for a minimum of 4 CB?s played in open season...
I think this limitation to the open season could in some way be used ?the other way around? as an excuse for some clans to not CB, if they already fulfilled this very very low limitation of Cbs, giving access to finals. As I have pointed out earlier, I think adding more energy and activity into the open season could be done in other ways.

1) Clans don't need excuses now, they still manage to say no.
2) The encouragement to play / win more is to get a better seeding.
3) Having a minimum is just that, a minimum.  We had one of those too saying if you signed up for a ladder and didn't play the minimum number of CB's you'd be banned for the next season.  We've just never enforced it.

Adding other things doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.  Other ideas don't mean the finals can't be changed, does it?

Only one CB to determine wether or not you are out of the finals.
Well, thats actually the part i like in the existing way of doing finals. The two opponents gets best of 3 CBs to determine who is best. To me, only doing one CB is weakening the excitement of the Season.

It's also been one of the problems.  This way you don't have to worry about if the 3rd CB is necessary, and when to play it.  It's one CB a day, at the scheduled time, for everyone.  Winning once or winning twice, not a huge difference.  It's not like these are best of 7 series.

All have to play on the same map ? map is chosen by admins.
Of course I am a bit biased here, being an admin and all. But imagine the discussions arising :
 
First discussion amongst the admins.... ?What map to pick ??  !!!!!
Next discussion in open forum : ?You lousy son of bitches admins, what kind of stupid map is that to pick for finals? The map is too large/small ? too laggy/too fast ? too biased on team-inserts....list of complaints is endless.

I would like to stay with the free ?initiative?. I think clans should pick map by themselves, according to the rules, and further : ?Looser picks map ? winner picks teamcolor.?...
And in general I feel it a bit awkward to have the whole League playing the one and same map.

Flies, don't pull statements like "according to the rules".  Changing rules is exactly what the whole conversation is about.  It's a cheap tactic.

As for picking the maps, if they are done at the start of the season, and told to all, there can be no complaints.  It's not like we are talking about the Admins picking the maps right before the games.  And I'm going out on a limb making the assumption that the Admins would pick maps that are very fair to both spawns, like CSL.  That may be too much to ask though.

I know a lot of your suggests to the rules have been done, to secure these Super-Saturdays could be up and running, with no delay from a single CB.
But I gotta say : Mb you are sacrificing too many good  things to achieve this one and only goal.

If you think that is the one and only goal, you need to have it explained to you much better flies, because you are working from a huge misperception.

It is already complicated to have 4  or 6 clans scheduling their cbs for finals
? and now we should have 16 ?

I fear a lot of clans will have to back out of the finals, simply due to probs with scheduling. And I fear that too many of the top-cbs could be used tactically. If a lousy clan has to meet a super-clan, and they know they stand little or no chance of winning, they could fuck it up for the top-seeded clan, by making a fuzz out of scheduling the cb.

And I try to imagine myself:
?What is left, when a season is over, if done by this strict bracket-system ?

*  I think we will end up with 16 angry clanleaders shouting at each other on DAMN forum, because of the scheduling process.

Funny thing, scheduling is the one thing we already have that wouldn't be changed.  So that says to me it's a problem that needs to be fixed either way Flies.

Your argument against the bigger bracket because of scheduling problems is void, since you agree yourself that problem already exists, and we aren't effecting it at all.  

And to those that don't like the scheduling system and want to bitch, I say: come up with a better solution and bring it forward, or shut up.

*  I think we will end up with the whole community screaming at admins for picking the wrong maps.
I think we will end up with the open ? regular ? season being lowered in activity, because you can stay alive for the finals with just 4 cbs played in open season.

I think we have to rewrite so many rules in order to secure this proposal, that it could take weeks and weeks to get it rdy (remember, we have a few admins that have to agree on rules-changes).

I don't think it will have a negative effect on clans CBing in the regular season.  There is still the top seed to go after, and like I pointed out, we've had a minimum that wasn't enforced before.  And by all means, make the minimum higher to 6 or 8 CB's.  I'm all for it.  

And we are talking about rewriting the finals, nothing else.  If we managed to get warzone in between seasons, the only reason we can't do this would be the fault of Admins not being proactive and doing their job.  Shouldn't bee so hard.  I know VooDoo and Aramarth are trying to get a conversation going this weekend.  If I'm there that's three of us, how 'bout we work it out then?

Overall ? I simply dont find any major improvement at all ? and if I am forced to see this suggest as a full, untouchable suggest ? I would say : Why the f... should I vote for that ?

Who said it was untouchable?  That's the second time you've mentioned that.  Who said it couldn't or shouldn't be discussed and improved upon?  I've already read a couple suggestions here that I didn't think of but like.  Is someone selling this with a copyright that you can't make changes or something?

This seems to be the heart of your problem.  1) you are looking for this to solve a problem that it wasn't meant to (scheduling) and 2) you think it's not allowed to be improved upon.  

[Brain]

The person who posted this suggest in the first place was Lothario. I had a nice and long chat with him (and Alaric too, until he crashed out), and u may ask  him yourself, but it was pretty crystal-clear to me, that for him this whole suggest was an all-or-nothing thing. My reason for contacting MP-players in the first place, was actually to see if we could come up with something creative, that mb would improve the set-up.

As I understand it - and this was very hard to not understand correct - there was no intention of reformatting the suggest.

Just because Lothario says that there is no room for change in this proposal does not mean he speaks for all of |MP|. this suggestion is largly loth's brain child so naturaly he has a resistance towards changing it.  However,the only person in |MP| who's opinion matters is Alaric at this point since he is the admin who will be repesenting us.

When i mention "picking maps by the rules" it was simply easier for me, than saying : I prefer clans to pick maps with the joining clan choosing first map, the maps to switch and (so on and so on) .........I think its described in rules as is, and my only suggest to improvement on that bit is, if we can get the map-selection and team-selection aparted.

As was mensioned before, the goal here was to eliminate the issue of clans just having 2 or 3 maps that were their maps.  also, these admin map selections were only going to apply in the finals. clans would still be allowed to pick and play maps normaly in the regular season.  once the finals occur, than the maps are known to both sides and nobody has to worry about things such as wether or not this is a good or bad map for your clan. They would have all season to prepare for these 4 maps

I am sorry if i havent been able to see what all your motives behind the suggest are, but it seemed to me, that a lot of existing rules had to be rewritten, should you want to make that "Super-Saturday" you aim for. And I took it, that you were trying to deal with that. Still though, my comments are the same.

you're right, there is a motive behind this suggestion.  our motive was to provide a system that produces a clear winner in the battle league with as little compliction as possible and in a manner that is as fair as possible. the system was also supposed to eliminate problems like those experienced with this past season.

frankly we were sick and tired of each clan having their rules lawyer look at every single angle to try and force a redo or a forfit.  we were sick and tired of finals pattles that were interupted for days because nobody knew who was supposed to chose the color on the next map.

we alsot wanted to figure out a way to get excitement back in the league, we wanted o find a way to get clans to cb, not because they had to by rule, but because they WANTED to.

we feel that this proposal does this. if it requires that rules be rewritten, i say so be it. change begets change. if we want to change the system for the better, then we will need to change the rules.  this super saturday you mension as a goal for our proposal was nothing more than a cool sounding name we came up with. the real goal for the entire proposal is FUN. pure, plain, and simple


-Brain
[/color]

[Mr. Lothario]

     I feel I should go on record here.

     Flies, I specifically told you that suggestions were welcome, and we were more than willing to adopt any changes which would make the proposal better.

     You were hung up on an idea of your own having to do with the regular season. You repeatedly insisted that the change you wanted to make to the regular season would fix several problems in the league. I repeatedly told you that those same problems were being addressed by the finals proposal, so that it would be redundant to fix them again by grafting your plan onto the finals proposal. Rather than explain why I was wrong and why your idea really was good for the league when combined with the finals proposal, you repeatedly went back to listing the problems in the league and why your idea would fix them. So I repeatedly told you your idea was redundant. You got huffy, decided that I was dead-set against change, and came here to post.

     If the finals proposal didn't exist, I might have supported your idea. I just think that the finals proposal will reach the same ends, but be more fun. Implementing both is silly, and I've picked my horse for implementing one. It has nothing to do with a refusal to change, and everything to do with your ideas not being improvements.

[crypt]

In conjunction with the post I made in the other thread (RvS Season 8 Rules)

This could really work if the season was extended to 90 Days length. This would give the clans more than enough time to get a required number of cb's to participate. (I.E. 10 cb's)

[Aramarth]

For those of you who are waiting to hear regarding the MP finals proposal, an update. Sunday evening it was brought forward for a vote.  As of today, the conclusion of that vote was suspended in order for an amendment to be discussed. I will try to keep you in the loop if there is any information that bears sharing outside our little admin forum.

[crypt]

Off topic to concerning this, but is there a vote to have the 60 day season instated?

[alaric]

Just started one actually, Crypt.

[crypt]

Ok, thanks. I guess this thread is of no use anymore.

[†FiRE Infection]

This is the same plan Bondo, Brain and I proposed about 2 years ago.  I like the idea very much and think it's cool.  Much of the community was against it though, having the set up schedule and bracket.  We showed in the tounaments that we held that they will work if the people are willing to play but if not they will fall apart and there will just be a bunch of forfeits which doesn't work.  People will use excuses and one will say the other wasn't willing and such.  If I stand for anything I'd like to see it happen, my only problem is that if the support in the community is willing to make it work.  Also I think 16 clans is a lot to make the playoffs.  Is there really enough room for that many?

[crypt]

I thought it depended on the size of the ladder. I.E. The Ghost Recon ladder might be 8 but Raven Shield might just be 4.

[Acri]

I vote against this new finals system and I vote for a longer season and 6 or more clans in the finals.

[Aramarth]

Who said you get to vote!

[Acri]

Who said you get to question me, midget?

[Ssickboy]

I vote against this new finals system and I vote for a longer season and 6 or more clans in the finals.

I cancel out your vote.  settled.

[Aramarth]

MIDGET?!? Thats it, I'm going to delete one of your posts without warning sometime just for fun. j/k
I am many things, but one thing I am not is a midget!

[GEN BILLY]

ive seen ara

he is a midget


woot