Proposal for a *DAMN Battle League Finals Tournament

[crypt]

If I wasn't completely obvious, to put it in perspective, if you want a repeat of what happened in the Season 7 Finals, then you wouuld simply do nothing.

Maybe we should create a vote thread?

[Civrock]

If I wasn't completely obvious, to put it in perspective, if you want a repeat of what happened in the Season 7 Finals, then you wouuld simply do nothing.

it was not the system what caused the problems. the GhR Finals worked without problems at all btw...

[Brain]

i hear all this talk about needing a script in order to have this system work, but do we really need one?  i mean, sure it would be neat and spiffy if mauti and el came through with a script that automagicaly created the bracket and did everything else, but do we really need it?  is it unreasonable to ask our admins to simply create an ascii bracket or a pen and paper one and update it by hand for the first season?

the reason i pose these questions is because at this stage delaying the implementation of this finals system would be the kiss of death for it.  if we wait till season 9 to implement this, people will place this issue on the back burner and forget about it. the unprecedented solidarity in the will to change for the better will crumble.  the best shot at league reform we have had since the season system was implemented will be wasted. do we really want that? are there people amongst our number that really have no wish to see the current, undeniably broken, system change?

the sad answer to this is yes there are.

You people who wish for the death of this idea, i now ask of you why.  why do you feel this urge to stand in the way of progress?  why do you feel a need to rise above the community and impose your will over theirs?  this proposal fixes issues with the BL that have been present since before the current seasons format was implemented. of those who have spoken support has been near unanimous.  why persist in resisting?  to quote Aramarth way back in the beginning of this discussion

... So there is your problem gentlemen of MP. Your proposal will not be stricken down by facts, assuming it dies, but simply by the reality that it is different...

so i challenge you nay sayers to cease with the cloak and dagger tactics of attempting to get this proposal to die in the shadows. step out into the light and prove Aramarth wrong.  strike at this proposal with facts and we will strike back with the same.  unlike so many other proposals that have seen the  BL forums we will not let this one fall by the wayside or fall to petty politicking.  if this proposal is to die it will be from a frontal assault on it's integrity and no other way.

i have drawn the line in the sand, let any who would wish to challenge this proposal step over it now
-Brain

p.s. to those of you who wish to see the admins act on this proposal, i have heard rumor that it has been added to the agenda of things that need to be discussed/resolved before season 8 begins
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[c| King.of.Pop]

I think the new structuring idea is a fine one.  I have only one concern.  I dont disagree that we need to restructure the finals cb's, and this new proposal is by far the best, I'm excited to see it's implementation.  I'm just wondering if we're trying to do it with too many clans.  Of course this applies to RvS more than GhR.  In RvS there just arent enough active clans to have a bracket of that size, which I'm assuming is still 16 teams?  I suggest the GhR ladder have a larger number of clans in its bracket, and that the RvS finals Bracket consist of maybe 8 clans.  This is simply because as many of you know who regularly play in RvS pick up games, there aren't nearly as many clans around who will be involved in cbing during the regualr season.  Sure there are new clans popping up and older clans bolstering up, but RvS still just doesnt have enough clans for a full NCAA type sized tournament.  I'm afriad that in our effort to get the finals to run more smoothly than last season, we're going to muck it up again by obligating too many clans to participate this time around, and this could include GhR.  Don't forget that the MAIN reason there were any problems or excuses by clans or clan members last season was time, wether right or not.  People simply claiming they wouldnt have the time to play on a certain day or at a certain hour, and with more clans comes the inevitable...more problems with schedules.  It is after all a video game and most of us have jobs or school and lives that have to take priority sometimes.  I would say this bracketing idea is a great one, but we shouldnt get too ambitious with it is all.  I know it's easy to say that if a clan doesnt show they are out, but that could get ugly if more clans have to allocate time they dont necessarily have.

[alaric]

Let me first say that I appreciate all the thought that has gone into the replies so far. That people have taken the time to reply in a complete and respectful manner gives me much hope for this league.

Now some replies and considerations in no particular order....


Change is not a bad thing, nor is it something to be feared. To not implement a change that fixes or improves something simply because it is new is not a good thing. It's a foolish decision based more out of fear than rational thought. Yes, there have been many changes to this league over the last 14 months, but each time the league was made better. Why stop a good thing from happening?

The bracket size should be tailored to the ladder size (I think we covered that in the inital proposal, but maybe we missed it). GhR would have a larger bracket than RvS, for now...    Also, remember that if a clan for one reason or another doesn't show, it only eliminates them making it a bye for the other team. Each clan has 24 hours to do the cb for a round, if they can't make it, tough, they'll get another shot next season. One of the advantages of this system is that if one or more clans do forfeit it doesn't seriously affect the outcome of the finals.

As for the admins not being ready for season VII, I hate to say it, but who's fault is that? This proposal has been on the table for several weeks now, and it's pretty much in finished form. 11 days should be more than enough time to iron out the details and tie up loose ends. And if it comes down to it, who here wouldn't mind pushing back the start of the season another week or two if it means having a much better system in place for season VII?

[Mr. Lothario]

3. The overall structure of the tournament is based on the NCAA March Madness tournament or a Grand Slam tennis tournament. The number of brackets shall be dependent upon the number of participating clans. 16 clans is optimal, because in that case the tournament can be resolved in four rounds (two weekends at one round per day). This type of tournament can handle any number of teams through adding more brackets and/or using byes, so it's not necessary to limit the tournament to 16 clans. Adding another bracket will necessitate additional tournament rounds, however.

     KoP, see above. : ) The March Madness style of tournament is very flexible in terms of bracketing for various numbers of teams. We specifically mentioned 8 and 16 participants, because those numbers result in clean brackets with no need for byes or extra partial rounds. It will be possible to adjust the brackets to accomodate any number of clans, so there's no need to set hard-and-fast limits on the number of participants.

[Aramarth]

In truth, it could be ready for next season, but that is not on the shoulders of the admins. Mauti and Elan are the guys who need to hear about it, and we are doing what we can to advertise the topic.

[BTs_FahQ2]

Removed off topic SPAM. -Bucc

[|MP|Buccaneer]

Ara, I think it's in the hands of the Admins to discuss, and get the rules laid out.  Take the next week and finalize the rules.  Be the administrators, don't wait for Mauti if he's busy.  Yes he has a say, but if you are just waiting for him than you may as well not be an Admin.  If most of the people in the league are for this, lay the rules out in the admin section already.  

Warzone got discussed (and it was not agreed upon like this has been, there was quite a heated debate and resistance to it) and put into place between two seasons.  No reason this can't be too.  There are obviously things to discuss like re-seeding and map selection, why not get it done and on the table so it can be implemented as soon as possible, without missing the opportunity while waiting to hear from Mauti??

The scripts are in Elandrian's hands unless he asks for help.

Civic, you don't need the scripts written for the finals before the season starts, just the rules laid out.  The scripts would need to be changed at the finals, so that's when they'd need to be done by.

And Elandrian can always ask for help if he's pressed for time.  It's not for you or I to say he doesn't have the time.  It's for him to say, and to ask for help if he thinks he needs it.

[Aramarth]

if you are just waiting for him than you may as well not be an Admin

I fully intended to bring it up in the admin section bucc, but I left that part out of my post. You of all people should know that I have already done so. I suppose it is nice to go off on someone like that now and then, but I really don't think that was called for.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

if you are just waiting for him than you may as well not be an Admin

I fully intended to bring it up in the admin section bucc, but I left that part out of my post. You of all people should know that I have already done so. I suppose it is nice to go off on someone like that now and then, but I really don't think that was called for.

I think anytime anybody goes off on an admin it is called for  

But as for the Tournament thing, I like the idea.

-GhostSniper Out.

[|MP|Buccaneer]

You of all people should know that I have already done so.

I haven't seen it brought up for discussion yet.  All I've seen it talk about doing a voice chat.  Not the same thing.

In your posts here you've really implied that apathy will be the death of it, even though you think it's a good idea.  I'm saying if you feel that way, don't be apathetic about it.  

I suppose it is nice to go off on someone like that now and then, but I really don't think that was called for.

I did, because it seems that you are saying apathy is the problem, but not trying to change that fact.

I also don't think it was going off all that hard, it's just an opinion.  

[Aramarth]

You're right, there hasn't been much posting. I lost faith in it the last time it seemed like my post was invisible to the thread's discussion, or more recently, the entire thread invisible to everyone. Lately I have been using the direct approach on Gameranger. Again, I hear only positives, but with a whole lot of "I don't knows." Apparently, a system such as this which requires wins to advance and losses to eliminate is far in advance of anything the minds of admins can invision. Seriously, I can run this tournament on a piece of paper and post the results as a jpeg. The mindset is that we are waiting for Mauti, and I haven't had any success changing it.

[alaric]

No offense to Mauti or the admins here but this is starting to feel a bit like christianity to me. I mean, it's like we're waiting for the second coming.

I don't mean to speak for Mauti here but I doubt he'd mind the admins taking more of a leadership role in the league. Mauti of course still has veto powers on everything, but I thought the point of having a council of admins was to give greater autonomy to the league. We can't hold up the advancement of the league because of the absence of one man.

As for these "I don't knows", let's hear the reasons for them. If there are ideas or other ways to improve this system, let's hear them in an open discussion. It can only make things better.

[Acri]

After reading the first post:

I hate this idea and if it is to be used, I won't participate in playing on the *DAMN battle league at all. Five minute matches? This is a tactical game! On big maps, there is no way to set up a good tactic in five minutes, as it can take five minutes just to MOVE ACROSS THE MAP! This is not Quake. I'd rather see the limit at 15 or NO time limit like in the REAL world. And one scheduled cb per day?! wtf, what about american-european battles?

The community is working now, mb not perfect, but I am afraid drastic changes like this might kill the community or throw it off balance!

On the other hand, it WOULD be nice if MP could host a tournament like this. No fancy php is needed... just some text with the result and news and another winner icon.

I'm thinking of starting a little tournament myself... With no time limit. Stupid idea? Ask me in GR for more!
 

[crypt]

We're looking ahead at RvS most likely Acri, not the doomed Recon.

[BTs_GhostSniper]

We're looking ahead at RvS most likely Acri, not the doomed Recon.

Why does everyone keep talking about Ghost Recon like it is doomed and nobody wants to play it?  I'm sorry to disappoint some of you, but RvS is NO replacement for Ghost Recon.  GhR is still the most played game on GameRanger, and it is a long way from turning into RS or R6 on the *DAMN Battle League.

Personally, I think RvS sucks....and I have both the machine and the skill to play it properly.

But hey, AA all the way, baby!

-GhostSniper Out.

[Mr. Lothario]

     The 5 minute time limit was decided on with Raven Shield in mind. We foresaw that there would need to be some variant rules for other games, and a longer time limit for GhR was one of them. Since none of us play GhR any more, we weren't sure what sort of time limit would be best, so we just left it out, trusting to the GhR community to suggest a time limit.

[Brain]

First thing first,  the Mauti issue.

If memory serves me, the council of admins has the same authority mauti has for smaller issues.  Nobody in the community seems to have a problem accepting this fact.  What is lesser known is that they can also make decisions on a far larger scale (such as the one being discussed presently) if there is a consensus among admins.

  I forget the exact number, but I believe it is 7 admins need to agree on the change at hand (could be more or less based on the severity of the change).  Remember that mauti will ALWAYS have a final veto in any decision, but the reason he started this system was so that he would not need to babysit the league 24/7/365.  It used to be the case that when ever an admin handed down a verdict that the clan that was ruled against would go to straight to mauti and seek a more favorable ruling.  This became understandably annoying, and this he's given the admins the power to make critical decisions in his stead. He has trusted you with his brainchild, and he trusts you enough to be his voice on game ranger when he isn't there.  If mauti is trusting you this much already, why do yo believe that you need his approval on this issue before you can proceed?  Mauti has always acted in the interests of the community and the league.  If the community wants this and there is no harm to the league, what makes you think Mauti would say no?


Secondly, Flies "i don't know".  Hopefully I can clear up some of these point that you mentioned. If I don't I'll be happy to try again.

* Wouldnt it be nice to see a normal season (and yes Civ, the season worked out all right in Ghost - it was Raven with the sudden probs from 2 clans, that caused the most troubles) - before we go changing again ?

Yes, a normal season would be nice, but there are 2 problems with this in my mind.
1)  It has been acknowledged that this current system has flaws.  the recent issues in this past finals confirms that.  i would rather put up with a few new rules that could reduce or eliminate the possibility of this  situation happening again than to have to sit through the drama that happened this time.
2)  What is normal?  I cannot remember a season where afterwards the admins did not tweak and clarify the rules in an attempt to make the BL a more fun and fair place to compete. while our suggestion is indeed far larger than most of the run of the mill changes, it is still an attempt to make the battle league a better place.

* In the old days, I remember ViRuS always asking for a bracket system, more or less like the one you now suggest. Their reason for doing this was, that it was almost impossible for a euro-clan to keep up with the number of CBs the US-clans were able to play. But since then, we have now invented "finals" and wether its 4 or 6 clans in the finals (theoretically 6 would be best with current way of doing the ladder. In practic, with the weekend-planning and all, 4 clans were chosen, to make it more doable).

Yes, I remember when ViRuS proposed the bracket system.  It was a good idea back then as well because it dealt with many of the issues that are still present in the league today.  Unfortunately the league was unprepared to accept the proposal at that time.  Maybe this time will be different

* Should we introduce this new system now, what would happen to the not-tested ideas about splitting the open season into sections of 1 or 2 weeks, and setting a minimum number of CBs to be played during that time, in order to keep your clan on the ladder? This suggest, as I recall it, tried to keep the feeling of free choice to every clan, as to who they wanted to CB, and at same time tried to force every clan into doing more CB?s, wether they were high or low on ladder.

Honestly, I do not know.  That is for the admins to decide.  On a personal note i do not know wether or not I would be in favor of such a proposal because while it is a step towards scheduled CB's which could solve many problems in the league, it could pose many problems for smaller clans that may not have enough members to CB often, and bigger clans who cannot meet there quota because other clans will not CB them

* During the last 6 months, a lot of "outside-game" rules have been written. Every rule that settles a question of not-game-related issues, is to me an "outside-game" rule. All these rules have to be reconsidered with the switch to a completely new system. Would they be rewritten and polished up in due time, so the new suggest from MP would work without problems ?

I am not exactly sure which rules you are referring to here, however, i can only assume that should the idea be accepted that would be the case.  Again, this is for the admins to iron out, however, since the proposal primarily covers the finals and not the rest of the season, I would think that the amount of rule tweaking should be minimized

* I do have a lot admiration to the MP-suggest too. First of all - you simply did it. I mean, made a clandiscussed suggestion, and put some serious thought and will into it.
And it would be stupid not to realize that so many ppl seem to like the concept - right now.

Wether its going to be pen and paper - or complicated scripting - is irrelevant to me. Yes, I dont think admins would get gray hair if they had to do the finals by keeping track of games, manually.

First off, thank you. we did pt a lot of hard work and effort into the proposal.   I guess that is why we are being 'pushy' right now.  We don't want all our hard work to just wither away and become another thread in the BL forums.  As for keeping track of games, I believe that has been well covered in other posts.  In fact, It could become like march madness with everybody filling out their brackets and seeing who's going to make it to the top

* A little personal feeling of mine, I also have to listen to:
I have been calling for some inertia on the DAMN Battle League for quite some time now.
But it seems so much is changed every day, I can hardly keep track of it.
For every season we have had a new system.
* A new set of rules
* A new set of admins
* A new set of finals
* A new set of game-styles
* A new set of map-packs

I am really fighting with my perception of myself here. I normally consider myself pro-revolutionary, but the speed of changes has increased so much during 14 months, that I am now afraid im beginning to sound like some kind of conservative.

Well, I can't comment on your personal feelings, because they are your own, but I suppose I could post my feelings on this.  My feeling is that change is inevitable.  No matter what we try to do to the League, it will change, so I feel that I should try to make that inevitable change for the better.  There is one thing that will never change however, that is the spirit that drives this community and holds us together.  As long as we all continue to log on to the forums or GR to chat and play and laugh and argue, we will always have that inertia which you refer to that will keep us going

I try along the way to get into each suggest, and feel what good and bad it will do, and hoenst: Right now this process isnt finished inside of me, according to your suggest.

That's ok Flies, this is a big proposal, and honestly I wasn't sold on it either after the first reading, nor the second or the third.  But the reason I'm willing to stand here and defend it now is because i went thorough the same process you are and I came to believe that this proposal was in the the best interest of the BL. Yes there will be problems along the way, but then again, for every problem there is a solution.  I can't tell you what you are going to decide nor will i attempt to. all I'm trying to do here is to tell you what good I saw in this proposal.  In the end you're going to need to make your own decision, and as long as it is your own, nobody can say it's wrong


-Brain

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[Mr. Lothario]

     Flies, are you thinking that the League should get rid of the finals? That's one point that I got from reading your post, so correct me if I'm wrong. : )

     Edit: I talked with Alaric, and he clarified your position. I understand you to mean that you'd like to modify the regular season, but keep the existing finals system.